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Old 12-17-2012, 10:10 AM   #501
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

With roles in Planet OF The Apes, The Help, Red Tails, Lincoln and Jack Reacher Oyelowo has definetley been on a role the last couple of years. He has had five movies out this year alone I think.

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Old 12-17-2012, 01:47 PM   #502
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Darth Kush,

I'm well versed in racism and how it works, both academically and practically. When talking about the Marvel execs, we weren't talking about networking/de facto issues with creators, we're talking about prioritizing of projects. That is naturally, and they stated explicitly, based on how they thought the projects would be perceived, not on who they knew, right?

Also, you're reading into my statements. Just because something is anti-white doesn't mean anything more than "against whites." It doesn't mean against all whites, it doesn't mean reverse racism, it doesn't mean unfairly anti-white, it doesn't mean untruthfully anti-white, it doesn't mean I didn't like it/thought it was vile, it doesn't mean it wasn't successful, it doesn't mean any of the points you're addressing. All your statements are factual, but the book is still consistently against whites, and you've said nothing to contradict that, only justify it. The justifications for it are no more comforting for them than they would be for us.

I keep coming back to the crafty because inclusion is such a big part of my life now, the idea of characterizing it as some kind of skillful manipulation really is ludicrous to me. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Edit:
The reason this is an issue for me, why I keep derailing the thread with it, is because I think if Hudlin had a more inclusive Panther, with all of the other greatness of his run, he would still have a solo book today.
I'm not sure what you mean by anti-white now. Your reply here was a bit all over the place for me. I will say that I don't believe that Hudlin's books were "against" whites, based on your definition (s) or otherwise. As I've said before, I don't think white characters were the center of his books or were featured as prominently as they are in just about every other comic book. I also think his willingness to point out the history of Western relations with Africa ticked some fans off and since they can't dispute what he wrote some just decide to call it anti-white to delegitimize or ignore what he said.

With the crafty comment, I don't get why you are up in arms about that still. I explained what I meant by that. There was nothing hostile or malicious in what I felt Priest did. I also don't see it as simply 'inclusion' but an attempt to get around some white fears about reading a book starring a black character. So IMO he was working within the racial strictures of white fandom, in an attempt to get more white fans aboard. When you look at his run, some sixty issues I think the idea worked, for a while. Priest was trying to find a way to appeal to a market or niche of white readers. There was no more manipulation involved in that than there would be for any trying to sell to other nice markets. Of course I felt there was a racial dimension in this instance, but there are racial dimensions in other appeals to niche markets too.

As for Hudlin, his run was about the same and Panther achieved a level of mainstream success that even Priest's, or any other Panther writers, did not.

People like to attack Hudlin quite a bit and blame him for all of Panther's woes, but seem to forget that title did worse under the two white writers that followed him, Maberry and Liss. Now we can debate why that is, certainly some might argue that Maberry, working with a female Panther, had an especially hard job selling a black and female character. But this was not the case with Liss. And I would argue that both post-Hudlin writers employed the 'inclusive' (i.e. more white people) approach that you think would have kept Panther still selling right now.

Maberry moved away from any pointed critiques of the West and focused on Wakandan internal politics. Also white villains Dr. Doom and The Broker (Declun) featured prominently during his run, the DoomWar series, as did the Fantastic Four and X-Men. With Klaws of the Panther, he paired Shuri with Wolverine, Ka-Zar, Spider-Man, and Black Widow (I think). Under Liss, most of T'Challa's Wakandan past and ties were stripped away and he was sent off to Hell's Kitchen 'to find himself'. More non-blacks/non-Africans were in his supporting cast, including Sofia, who became his sidekick. He also squared off against white villains like Vlad, Hunter, Kraven, American Panther, and finally the Kingpin. And he teamed up, reluctantly with Storm, Luke Cage, and Spider-Man (if I recall correctly).

Both Maberry and Liss used a lot of white villains against Panther yet they are not upbraided for it like Hudlin was, and when I think about Hudlin's run, outside of his first arc, how many white villains did he use at all? I think the thing that incurs the wrath of some white fanboys is really not Hudlin's usage of white villains but his political spin on Panther. Once again I don't see that take as all that much different than what Priest wrote, except in tone.

To wrap this up, the inclusive approach didn't net Panther's books any more readers, and I would argue that what Maberry (in particular) did to T'Challa in DoomWar and then the move to Hell's Kitchen shed some of the new readers that Hudlin brought to the character. To be fair, Hudlin deserves some blame for setting up the Dark Reign storyline, but Maberry carried it forward to lackluster results. And then Marvel editorial (not blaming Liss) compounded it with moving Panther to Hell's Kitchen.

To now be fair with Marvel editorial, I do think that they are trying to find ways to make Panther more appealing to recalcitrant white fanboys, but so far the efforts have either undercut the character making him no more desirable or interesting or have pissed off Panther's remaining fans.

And when you look at the state of black superheroes, and superheroes of color in general, as solo stars, Panther's fate has been very similar. So how much of it is a lack of an 'inclusive' approach or disinterest in heroes of color. Despite his spotty record, T'Challa has been one of the more successful black solo series superheroes, and all of the writers deserve credit for that, Priest and Hudlin especially.


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Old 12-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #503
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

My statement was "If Hudlin's run had been more inclusive..." not other runs.

Again, "anti-white" literally means against whites.
Are there white people in the book? Yes.
Is the book against them? Yes.
Exception that proves the rule: Captain America... sometimes.

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Old 12-17-2012, 05:11 PM   #504
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Dr. Cosmic,

I talked about other runs to point out that the kind of 'inclusive' approach you are touting-which other writers arguably pursued-was less successful than Hudlin's approach. Now if we are counting success by how long the runs of each respective writer was, I think you can't argue with a straight face that Hudlin's run was not successful, compared to other Panther writers. Further, when you look at the record of other black heroes, or heroes in color in general, Hudlin's Panther also stands tall among them.

Two, being critical of some of the West's actions in Africa is not the same thing as being anti-white.

The majority of villains faced by Panther in post-Hudlin runs were white. Are Maberry and Liss also anti-white?


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Old 12-17-2012, 11:50 PM   #505
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

So it sounds like you're saying Hudlin's approach was in part about being exclusive? (You directly contrast it with being inclusive, so that sounds right). Well, that's my point, that Hudlin's approach excluded white people. That simple, really.

Did Mayberry and Liss have white characters? Yes.
Was the book against them? No, not all of them.

I'm unable to make my point any clearer. So that's really all I can say on these matters.

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Old 12-18-2012, 06:43 AM   #506
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

^
Dr. Cosmic,

I was using the term inclusive because of your usage. Note that I put the word often in quotation marks because I was skeptical that his books were lacking inclusiveness or to show that the kind of inclusiveness you seemed to suggest had been tried by other writers with lackluster success, compared to Hudlin.

I think that Hudlin's books were not exclusive, I think they were inclusive when you look at how many more readers he had during his run than other writers. He expanded the readership and Panther's visibility and popularity to some extent. That brought more people to the book, not less. Hudlin's books no more excluded whites than McGregor, who I wrote about before tangled with Marvel editorial who wanted him to put more white people in his Panther books. His response was that he was writing a story about an African king in Africa so putting more white people in the book didn't make sense. Comparing it to a modern example, how was Hudlin any more exclusive than Batwing, also based in Africa with pretty much a black cast (Batman shows up in a couple books so far)? Hudlin's book was about a black African king.

So, if Maberry and Liss's books were not against all white characters, and you have admitted that Hudlin's books were not against all white characters (Captain America being your one exception-which is a pretty big exception since he symbolizes America, it's values, it's idealism, etc.), then why is Hudlin anti-white and Maberry and Liss not? Could it be that Hudlin is a black writer with the temerity to point out some of America's and the West's flaws?

I understand the desire to disengage from this discussion. I've said about all I can too, and I've tried my best to illustrate my view. There's not much more I can say about it.


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Old 12-18-2012, 03:53 PM   #507
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I understand your viewpoint. You feel as though Hudlin was true to the character and the concept and took bold uncompromising steps to say the things that have not been said before and represent the things that have been long overlooked, and was rewarded with greater success for his efforts. Not only do I see your view clearly, but I've expressed my agreement with it multiple times.

The only thing I disagree with is your idea that the criticisms of the book are completely unfounded - that the only reason a person can be offended by Hudlin's Panther is if they are racist. But when I try to discuss it with you:

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Could it be that Hudlin is a black writer with the temerity to point out some of America's and the West's flaws?
None of my statements support this viewpoint, but you need me to have it. That's why the discussion is going in circles, because you're not really in this discussion. You're just looking for a straw man.

The fact is, virtually every book in print points out the West's flaws. That's not a factor, no matter how much you want it to be.

If the shoe were on the other foot, and in a lengthy Captain America run, all he did was fight Somalian Pirates, and Nigerian terrorists and African American street gangs while dealing with foes like Bushmaster, Cardiac, Thunderball and Hypno Hustler while guest starring Falcon and Luke Cage who were embarrassingly useless, with a side story about a plague from Africa, and maybe, in a limited series by that author, eventually Black Panther had become a useful heroic guest star... I wouldn't touch that run, purely on account of how it dealt with Black people. It doesn't matter how many other black people like it, or if black people really do do those things, or if it's about a white guy in a mostly white country, or if there's a million other books that don't do that, I'm personally turned off. If a white person does the same when it's the opposite way, I empathize.

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Old 12-18-2012, 05:11 PM   #508
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

^
Dr. Cosmic,

I don't appreciate you implying that I haven't been "in" this discussion. At first you said I was dancing and now I haven't been in it. I don't think that's a fair judgment. I don't agree with your belief that Hudlin is a racist, or rather that his run on Black Panther was anti-white. I have explained-at length-why I didn't feel that to be the case.

I'm also a little taken aback that you feel that I need you to hold any view. I was telling you what I feel to be the underlying cause for some people's real racial issues with Hudlin's Panther. And I was asking you if that was the case for you as well.

I never said that I believe that people offended by Hudlin's run on Panther are racists. Though I do believe that some of the vitriol spewed at Hudlin has come from racist fanboys. I'm not saying you are one of those people. From reading some of your posts, you appear to me to have a genuine interest in the Panther and aren't just criticizing without reading or making claims without having some knowledge of the character beforehand (though let me repeat that I do not agree with those criticisms about Hudlin's alleged anti-white bias). I've criticized Hudlin's run myself on this board and in this thread, but not because of any perceived anti-white bias.

I think you are making a very sweeping generalization when you claim that virtually every book points out the West's flaws. Are you kidding?

As for your final example, when you look at the portrayal of blacks (not to mention other people of color) in comics for far too long it wasn't too off from what you described. Further, even today there are continual issues with representation and depiction where characters of color are concerned. So hopefully you will be just as critical of white writers and companies who do what you feel Hudlin did.


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Old 12-19-2012, 12:49 PM   #509
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

No need to hope, I already told you I enjoy Hudlin's BP thoroughly, and reject books that do what he did with his white cast with their black casts.

I apologize if I was judgmental, you're right, that's not right of me. But you when you tell me I believe "Hudlin is a racist," or hope I do something that I've already told you I do, it's hard to believe you're really reading what I'm writing.

I'm not kidding about every book pointing out flaws in Western society. Captain America actually withdrew from his costume at one point and regularly has stories where what he represents comes into conflict with what America actually is. No books are saying that Western society is awesome. Well, maybe over at DC...

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Old 12-20-2012, 10:12 AM   #510
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

^
When you said you thought Hudlin's stories were anti-white I took it to mean that you thought Hudlin's run on Panther was racist. So that's why I referred to that.

I still disagree with you that every book points out flaws in Western society, or do so as bluntly as Hudlin sometimes did. There have been some books that have, like Captain America, as you pointed out, at points. But the vast majority of comic books don't, or many don't discuss politics or history at all. Which is the way a lot of fanboys want it, it seems.

Further, I would argue that the mass majority when discussing politics reaffirms Western society and culture. Whatever critiques are minimized to the 'past', or to singular individuals or organizations. Hudlin's critiques, in comparison, were on a broader canvas, at times.

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Old 12-20-2012, 11:02 AM   #511
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

On villains, while Christoph Waltz would be kind of on the nose for Klaw, I'd like him or Viggo in that role.

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:08 PM   #512
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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What about Arnold Vosloo as Klaw?

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Old 12-21-2012, 12:23 PM   #513
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I've always wanted Jason Isaacs as Klaw.

Honestly, I don't think it's that hard of a character to cast. Isaacs, Waltz, Bryan Cranston, Sean Bean, Mark Strong, Ralph Fiennes, William Fitchner, Vicent Cassel and Mads Mikkelsen are all names I've heard suggested, and I think any one of them could do it justice.

Viggo would be awesome, but if Marvel could get him, I'd rather it be a meatier role, like Doctor Strange.

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Old 12-22-2012, 05:19 PM   #514
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Now that Leverage is cancelled, Aldis Hodge can throw his hat in the ring for T'Challa.

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Old 12-22-2012, 07:50 PM   #515
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

He can keep his hat on his head, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't dislike Hodge. He does his thing on Leverage. But I've never gotten the vibe he can deliver the T'Challa I wanna see.

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Old 12-22-2012, 08:30 PM   #516
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

How big is Hodge's name? Is he at least recognizable enough to garner a little bit of interest for a few fringe fans? I am still of the belief that they should put a cast of some decently known names so that they don't have to bank on one particular star.

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:06 PM   #517
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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On villains, while Christoph Waltz would be kind of on the nose for Klaw, I'd like him or Viggo in that role.
Waltz would be a good choice

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^
What about Arnold Vosloo as Klaw?
I have to say no to Vosloo tho. I think he's a meh actor and I doubt he'll really bring many viewers to the movie

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I've always wanted Jason Isaacs as Klaw.

Honestly, I don't think it's that hard of a character to cast. Isaacs, Waltz, Bryan Cranston, Sean Bean, Mark Strong, Ralph Fiennes, William Fitchner, Vicent Cassel and Mads Mikkelsen are all names I've heard suggested, and I think any one of them could do it justice.

Viggo would be awesome, but if Marvel could get him, I'd rather it be a meatier role, like Doctor Strange.
Yeah Klaw shouldnt be a problem to cast. I do think they should get someone who has some clout/respect/appeal whether that's in the states or overseas. Cassel is my top choice, Waltz is my 2nd.

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Now that Leverage is cancelled, Aldis Hodge can throw his hat in the ring for T'Challa.
HE's been my top choice
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How big is Hodge's name? Is he at least recognizable enough to garner a little bit of interest for a few fringe fans? I am still of the belief that they should put a cast of some decently known names so that they don't have to bank on one particular star.
I agree that the cast should have some names. Actually they kinda have to if they want the movie to be a success
However, I dont think you have to cast a name for T'Challa himself

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:13 PM   #518
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I agree that the cast should have some names. Actually they kinda have to if they want the movie to be a success
However, I dont think you have to cast a name for T'Challa himself
Pretty much. No one knew Hemsworth before Thor. Chris Evans was known but it's not like he was some huge box office star. Even Robert Downey jr, while (in)famous for a long time was not a box office star at the time Iron Man came out. Hell, Iron Man revived his career.

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Old 12-24-2012, 03:15 AM   #519
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Pretty much. No one knew Hemsworth before Thor. Chris Evans was known but it's not like he was some huge box office star. Even Robert Downey jr, while (in)famous for a long time was not a box office star at the time Iron Man came out. Hell, Iron Man revived his career.
Chris was in Star Trek. I suspect the casting will be someone who has appeared in one breakout role beforehand.

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Old 12-24-2012, 08:43 AM   #520
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But Star Trek was a 5 min role and I dont think that it meant that much to the GA. I would not call it his breakout role at all. Especially compared to Thor.

I dont think Marvel will look at someone depending on their breakout roles.


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Old 12-24-2012, 02:56 PM   #521
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

It wasn't. It was memorable, but not a breakout role.

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Old 12-25-2012, 12:24 PM   #522
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Further, I would argue that the mass majority when discussing politics reaffirms Western society and culture. Whatever critiques are minimized to the 'past', or to singular individuals or organizations. Hudlin's critiques, in comparison, were on a broader canvas, at times.
Did that broad canvas include potential readers of Hudlin's Panther?

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Pretty much. No one knew Hemsworth before Thor. Chris Evans was known but it's not like he was some huge box office star. Even Robert Downey jr, while (in)famous for a long time was not a box office star at the time Iron Man came out. Hell, Iron Man revived his career.
One thing that's kinda important to notice with these big superhero guys is that the actors are generally up and coming. Hemsworth had two or three strong roles in the can... people in Hollywood definitely knew who he was, but Red Dawn and Cabin in the Woods hadn't be released yet and Ca$h is like super-indie, so *we* didn't know, but there was clear star talent there, and clear money there.

Evans was, imho, poor casting, out of convenience with a rush job to get ready for Avengers. That's why his career hasn't taken off since then like some of the others.

Aldis Hodge is by far my favorite. The guy is a kind of versatile Will Smith in a way (circa Fresh Prince), without being, y'know, Will Smith. I'd want him to have a sort of breakout role first though, but he's still kinda my ideal, as far as attitude and presence and accent and charisma and stuff.

After him, Chiwetel (prounoucned "Choo-we-tell" it turns out) Ejiofor is my second choice, because he's perfect for everything except a panther origin story. I don't think Panther's works as well at 40 like Iron Man's does. Of course... they could always just skew Ejiofor a bit younger I guess. Regardless, he would be a really heavy Panther. Absolutely incredible, I think, between his strong presence, exceptional acting skill and actual martial arts training and physicality.

Everyone else kinda just pales in comparison to me. Yeah, David Oyelowo could do it, so could Djimon Honsou, all things considered (He certainly doesn't look 50 without the gray beard)... but Ejiofor would make the most sense, and Hodge would make me the most excited.

Edit: I just realized Ejiofor is only 35. He was like 28 back during Serenity. I thought he was about five years older than he is forever.

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Old 12-25-2012, 12:46 PM   #523
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Did that broad canvas include potential readers of Hudlin's Panther?



One thing that's kinda important to notice with these big superhero guys is that the actors are generally up and coming. Hemsworth had two or three strong roles in the can... people in Hollywood definitely knew who he was, but Red Dawn and Cabin in the Woods hadn't be released yet and Ca$h is like super-indie, so *we* didn't know, but there was clear star talent there, and clear money there.

Evans was, imho, poor casting, out of convenience with a rush job to get ready for Avengers. That's why his career hasn't taken off since then like some of the others.
OT: I think Evans career didnt really take off in terms of having many big blockbuster roles because he doesnt like things like press conferences, photo calls, etc. I read that he gets really nervous with those kind of things. That's just a rumor, but I think that explains why he sticks to smaller indie dramas and rom coms mostly. Either that or he just prefers those kinds of films more.
I'm sure he could be getting tons of bigger action roles like Hemsworth been getting if he wanted to

Quote:
Aldis Hodge is by far my favorite. The guy is a kind of versatile Will Smith in a way (circa Fresh Prince), without being, y'know, Will Smith. I'd want him to have a sort of breakout role first though, but he's still kinda my ideal, as far as attitude and presence and accent and charisma and stuff.

After him, Chiwetel (prounoucned "Choo-we-tell" it turns out) Ejiofor is my second choice, because he's perfect for everything except a panther origin story. I don't think Panther's works as well at 40 like Iron Man's does. Of course... they could always just skew Ejiofor a bit younger I guess. Regardless, he would be a really heavy Panther. Absolutely incredible, I think, between his strong presence, exceptional acting skill and actual martial arts training and physicality.

Everyone else kinda just pales in comparison to me. Yeah, David Oyelowo could do it, so could Djimon Honsou, all things considered (He certainly doesn't look 50 without the gray beard)... but Ejiofor would make the most sense, and Hodge would make me the most excited.
Agreed

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Old 12-26-2012, 09:45 AM   #524
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

That's a good point. I really don't get Evans' take on these films. I heard RDJ had to encourage him to do it, but then he does stuff like Scott Pilgrim and Push, which is y'know, pretty much the same thing. He does seem to be all Indie now since Avengers though.

Regardless, yeah...




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Old 12-26-2012, 09:35 PM   #525
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Maybe it's just because I watched Django Unchained. But they should just go ahead and cast Waltz as Klaw.
I mean other than "being on the nose" like terry said, there's not much downside to casting him. He's a respected actor, he has a fan base overseas and in America, and he's good at playing the villain. Besides, Hugo Weaving was pretty "on the nose" casting when it came to Red Skull and that didnt take away from his performance.

Cassel is still my top choice but I think Waltz would be the best choice

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