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Old 03-18-2013, 01:40 PM   #676
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There is nothing real about Thor or Thanos. When you try and make Wakanda a real place, natural issues come into play that do not affect completely fictional chartacters. even Iron Man, Hulk and Cap are grounded in some reality, whether their respective characters can exist or not.

We each have an opinion. Mine is more grounded in reality though I give that it probably shouldn't be. No need to attack. This is a work of fiction and they can make it as silly as they want.

I am not saying Wakanda won't be believable in the MCU, what I am saying is that in the real world, a country like Wakanda does not exist for good reason. Those reasons do not necessarily apply to a work of fiction.

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Old 03-18-2013, 01:56 PM   #677
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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There is nothing real about Thor or Thanos. When you try and make Wakanda a real place, natural issues come into play that do not affect completely fictional chartacters. even Iron Man, Hulk and Cap are grounded in some reality, whether their respective characters can exist or not.

We each have an opinion. Mine is more grounded in reality though I give that it probably shouldn't be. No need to attack. This is a work of fiction and they can make it as silly as they want.

I am not saying Wakanda won't be believable in the MCU, what I am saying is that in the real world, a country like Wakanda does not exist for good reason. Those reasons do not necessarily apply to a work of fiction.
No one is trying to make Wakanda a real place outside of creating the land on a movie set. That's no different from creating Asgard, Krypton, Middle Earth, or any other fictional land.

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Old 03-18-2013, 02:09 PM   #678
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It's hard to sell a land-locked isolationist country with extremely limited natural and human resources as being more advanced than the global community. Countries with the issues I described are typically the poorest nations on the planet. However, comic books are a work of fiction so there is some wiggle room.
I think what you're ignoring is the importance of vibranium in making Wakanda prosperous. In the Marvel universe, vibranium is the ultimate element, and Wakanda is the only place on earth that it exists. It would be like if the entire world's supply of oil was in Austria, or if uranium could only be found in Uraguay. Wakanda doesn't become an extremely advanced society for no reason whatsoever. So it's certainly believable in reality.

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Old 03-18-2013, 02:41 PM   #679
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I think what you're ignoring is the importance of vibranium in making Wakanda prosperous. In the Marvel universe, vibranium is the ultimate element, and Wakanda is the only place on earth that it exists. It would be like if the entire world's supply of oil was in Austria, or if uranium could only be found in Uraguay. Wakanda doesn't become an extremely advanced society for no reason whatsoever. So it's certainly believable in reality.

That is not how a market place works. You must sell your commodities to make money off of them. If Wakanda is as isolationist as we are told, they cold not even receive financing through the futures markets for their commodity, as no one knows they have it. The worth of something there is no demand for is zero. As no one knows Wakanda has vibranium, it's technical worth is zero.

The middle-eastern countries did not become rich until the began selling their commodities. Simply having a lot of something doesn't make you rich until you're willing to sell it.

Right now, no one knows anything about this small, isolationist country in the middle of Africa and it would be beyond weird if they were wealthy. Isolationist countries don't succeed...ever. They are usually socially backwards and technologically inept. Wakanda would be lacking in so many consumer goods that they may as well be living in grass huts. The United States would not be what it is without international trade. The US also has massive amounts of natual resources and over 300 million people. Wakanda has vibranium that no one knows about and they won't sell and a small population.

Obviously applying real world issues to a fictional place won't mesh right but I wanted to make the point that a place like Wakanda would struggle in a modern world. But this is all fictional so who cares. Have fun with it.

Give me a Black Panther movie!

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Old 03-18-2013, 02:58 PM   #680
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Right now, no one knows anything about this small, isolationist country in the middle of Africa and it would be beyond weird if they were wealthy.
Whose to say? Right now, Wakanda has never been mentioned in a Marvel movie. Maybe the whole world knows vibranium exists. How do you know that they refuse to do business with the rest of the world? How do you know they refuse to sell products made from vibranium? You're making a lot of assumptions based on a story element that has not been introduced.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:05 PM   #681
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Whose to say? Right now, Wakanda has never been mentioned in a Marvel movie. Maybe the whole world knows vibranium exists. How do you know that they refuse to do business with the rest of the world? How do you know they refuse to sell products made from vibranium? You're making a lot of assumptions based on a story element that has not been introduced.

I am going off what I know of the story presented in the comics. No one knows Wakanda has a mountain of vibranium and it's a national secret that they do. Also, during the Cap movie, Cap asks why everyone doesn't have a shield and Howard Stark responds that is all they have in the known world. No assumptions have been made.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:11 PM   #682
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Also, Wakanda doesn't have to have a vibrant economy.

Just space age technology defending the borders.

They have always had an indigenous, tribal culture other than their defense systems.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:18 PM   #683
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Having giant, space age blaster cannons does look out of place next to spears and wicker shields. That's something that only works in fantasy land.

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Old 03-18-2013, 03:53 PM   #684
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Having giant, space age blaster cannons does look out of place next to spears and wicker shields. That's something that only works in fantasy land.
They keep their simple ways because they respect their traditions and nature.

But they're smart enough to create sophisticated defense systems.

Nothing too crazy. Imagine if the Amish of Marvel Universe created a high tech boundary to keep outsiders away but inside lived a simple, traditional existence.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:24 PM   #685
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It's just as silly if the Amish did it. Basing your military and/or law enforcement around celebrating traditions is inherently ineffective. It's one thing to have an honor guard, but equipping your men with plasma charged spears and limited body armor because that's how it was done when fighting the Pharoahs cannot be taken seriously. It's an extension of the same 'Africa = Dark Africa' thinking that makes people not want to believe Wakanda could exist.

And it is about making it a real place. Thor, Captain America, even Iron Man put these people into real world history in a way that was appreciable and immediately identifiable, even believable to the uneducated (and that is the key, believable to the uneducated). A Black Panther movie, to be of the caliber of those films, would have to do the same. "It's fantasy, so who's to say in the MCU Wakanda isn't a well known name" won't cut it, not if you want the character to be a peer with those who have had their fictional place in real history adequately explained and explored.

Part of what would be wise to do in a BP film would be to 'create' Wakanda as we know it, let it start out as something immediately recognizable in the real world, like Stark Industries, or the SIS, and, by the actions of the protagonist, be changed into the Wakanda we know and love. This is much like the original implication in BP's first appearance in F4, as opposed to latter retcons where Wakanda was shown to always be a preeminent world power into antiquity. Let MCU Wakanda be a wartorn tribe the last of a long forgotten ancient kingdom. Let T'Challa revive it. It makes him better, and it brings the audience along on the journey.

As I've said before, the goal of a BP film is not to beat chests and say 'Black is awesome!" The goal of a BP film, of any good story, is to bring everyone, including the white audience, into the Black (Panther) experience in a way that they see themselves in the protagonist.

I imagine setting some of the early scenes in Cape Town (y'know, a thriving African Metropolis), would be a nice way to set the tone for "This ain't your grandpa's Africa." lol

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Old 03-18-2013, 05:02 PM   #686
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VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 03-18-2013, 05:58 PM   #687
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It's just as silly if the Amish did it. Basing your military and/or law enforcement around celebrating traditions is inherently ineffective. It's one thing to have an honor guard, but equipping your men with plasma charged spears and limited body armor because that's how it was done when fighting the Pharoahs cannot be taken seriously. It's an extension of the same 'Africa = Dark Africa' thinking that makes people not want to believe Wakanda could exist.

And it is about making it a real place. Thor, Captain America, even Iron Man put these people into real world history in a way that was appreciable and immediately identifiable, even believable to the uneducated (and that is the key, believable to the uneducated). A Black Panther movie, to be of the caliber of those films, would have to do the same. "It's fantasy, so who's to say in the MCU Wakanda isn't a well known name" won't cut it, not if you want the character to be a peer with those who have had their fictional place in real history adequately explained and explored.

Part of what would be wise to do in a BP film would be to 'create' Wakanda as we know it, let it start out as something immediately recognizable in the real world, like Stark Industries, or the SIS, and, by the actions of the protagonist, be changed into the Wakanda we know and love. This is much like the original implication in BP's first appearance in F4, as opposed to latter retcons where Wakanda was shown to always be a preeminent world power into antiquity. Let MCU Wakanda be a wartorn tribe the last of a long forgotten ancient kingdom. Let T'Challa revive it. It makes him better, and it brings the audience along on the journey.

As I've said before, the goal of a BP film is not to beat chests and say 'Black is awesome!" The goal of a BP film, of any good story, is to bring everyone, including the white audience, into the Black (Panther) experience in a way that they see themselves in the protagonist.

I imagine setting some of the early scenes in Cape Town (y'know, a thriving African Metropolis), would be a nice way to set the tone for "This ain't your grandpa's Africa." lol
You guys are over thinking this.

It's just a defense system.

There's no reason an intelligent upper class couldn't build it simply to protect the ancient ways of the tribe.

No one is going to walk out or boycott a superhero movie because an indigenous tribe has a high tech defense system They might think it's weird but there's no way it would be a deal breaker. I mean, this is the same audience that thought a black Norse god who protected an intergalactic space jump at the end of a rainbow bridge was perfectly acceptable.

I like the concept of an indigenous tribe being capable of space age technology but instead choosing to live one with nature due to their sacred spiritual beliefs. Most people think of indigenous cultures as clueless savages who only live with nature and worship animals out of ignorance. But what if those who "advance" society by destroying nature were the ignorant ones?

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Old 03-18-2013, 06:14 PM   #688
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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It's not unrealistic at all when you consider what happens during Avengers.

A blonde extraterrestrial demigod wearing a cape shooting lightning at giant intergalactic alien monsters with help from a giant green monster and a guy flying around in a robotic body suit shooting lasers.

But you think a land-locked county with advanced technology is where audiences will question the realism???

Are you guys serious???
You're wasting your "breath". This debate has literally gone on for years on these boards. Hell, some people have even expressed having a problem with Wakanda in the actual comics themselves...

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I am going off what I know of the story presented in the comics. No one knows Wakanda has a mountain of vibranium and it's a national secret that they do.
Unless they've done yet another round of retcons...the above is untrue.

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Old 03-18-2013, 06:24 PM   #689
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Haha, other people online have said the same thing I have. Alien races and supersoldier serums are in the realm of plausibility but an African nation that's light years ahead of others isn't.

Lee, Ditko, and Kirby created most of these guys around the same time so I doubt they ever considered it too farfetched.

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Old 03-18-2013, 06:26 PM   #690
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I have never read the comics but I have read through a number of wikis and watched A:EMH and the Black Panther on Netflix (which was awful). I believe in A:EMH, the vibranium mound was secret or at least not widely known. There are so many stories for each character that I have no idea what is and is not canon. If I am wrong then whatever. I'm not going to argue with you. However, I would like to know the truth for any future conversations.

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Old 03-18-2013, 06:31 PM   #691
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Haha, other people online have said the same thing I have. Alien races and supersoldier serums are in the realm of plausibility but an African nation that's light years ahead of others isn't.

Lee, Ditko, and Kirby created most of these guys around the same time so I doubt they ever considered it too farfetched.

The problem doesn't lie with there being an African nation light years ahead, the problem lies with ANY nation being light years ahead. It is especially troubling when that nation is small, landlocked and starved for resources which defies common sense. To me, the country being located in Africa is merely coincidental though I can see it meaning more to others.

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Old 03-18-2013, 06:37 PM   #692
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If your goal is "no one boycotting or walking out" then I'll prep a spot next to Green Lantern and Fantastic Four for BP. The goal is to get as many people to as possible to fall positively head over heels in love with the character and/or the story. That's why Iron Man leads the Avengers now (he even tells Cap when to give orders in the film), because no one was off-goal enough to say "There's no reason Tony can't have invented all these armors before the film starts..."

This argument "They accepted X from Thor" is so blind to me. This logic seems ignore *why* they accepted X or Y or Z from Thor, as though if audiences accept dreams as cool in Inception, they cannot possibly think Sucker Punch is stupid or confusing or worse, derivative. Black Panther has to be able to stand on its own, like the rest of the MCU, like all other good films, or else, simply put, it's not a good film.

Edit: Captain America, as a film, doesn't really stand on its own, actually. That's why it, and it's lead, are ranked lower critically and commercially. If it wasn't a lead in to Avengers it would have tanked, and the random non-real world fantastical elements inserted into real world history would have seemed even more intrusive and out of place. I want better for T'Challa.

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Old 03-18-2013, 06:43 PM   #693
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Haha, other people online have said the same thing I have. Alien races and supersoldier serums are in the realm of plausibility but an African nation that's light years ahead of others isn't.

Lee, Ditko, and Kirby created most of these guys around the same time so I doubt they ever considered it too farfetched.
What Lee, Ditko and Kirby created is a notable stretch from what we see now. Originally, it was pretty much Dark Africa with a Tony Stark (edit: Actually, Reed Richards) in charge. Now? It's Coruscant. Hidden Coruscant. With Spears. That's a lot to ask of a culture that doesn't know Africa even has concrete. I could see some value in going the Thor route with a long lost hidden kingdom that has removed itself from the world, much as Asgard has, but with invisibility rather than closing the doors - but I think it would be truer to the original origin, and much more appealing to the masses, to have T'Challa make Wakanda a super power, rather than it come like that out the box.

Edit: Y'know, that might be an interesting role for T'Challa in the MCU. They say they want something totally original, let T'Challa be the cosmic science guy, let *him* be the Reed Richards like contact for the rest of the world... that should put Wakanda on Coruscant status in short order... I could dig that.

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:25 PM   #694
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I like how Priest seemed to connect the portrayals of Wakanda. When you first see it in FF Wakanda is large, rich, and in charge with good tech. Over the years they made it so that T'Challa was the one who brought Wakanda most of its tech, and also brought them to the modern age while many disagreed with him. Hudlin was the one who introduced Wakanda as always being technologically ahead of the curve, so that's where that type of portrayal started. Now I hate Hudlin's run, but he explained it well by saying that they were technologically ahead of the curve because they had to be in order to keep from being conquered.

Priest came before Hudlin, but his portrayal seemed to make it as if Wakanda always had some good tech, but T'Challa was the one who elevated it even higher. Now the difference between this and the previous portrayal was that T'Challa's mind is the bigger factor here while in the past it seemed implied that it was what T'Challa learned in the West that gave him the ideas. I don't like that because it undercuts Wakanda, and it felt like there were undertones of the Great White Man and his technology saved those damned savages. With Priest it didn't undercut the West or Wakanda, and he didn't make it as if they were so far above everyone that they blew everyone out the water. They were badass, advanced, but they still were just a nation of 6 million people. They may have had a super strong army, but they weren't so tough that they could blow the Atlanteans away with one blow. I want that kind of balance that doesn't make Wakanda look bad or good at the expense of others.

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:52 PM   #695
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If your goal is "no one boycotting or walking out" then I'll prep a spot next to Green Lantern and Fantastic Four for BP. The goal is to get as many people to as possible to fall positively head over heels in love with the character and/or the story. That's why Iron Man leads the Avengers now (he even tells Cap when to give orders in the film), because no one was off-goal enough to say "There's no reason Tony can't have invented all these armors before the film starts..."
You missed my point. I didn't say the BP film doesn't need viewers. I'm saying having Wakanda have a defense shield won't be a deal breaker for anyone. You won't lose any viewers by including it. Black Panther has alot more in common with Captain America, Thor and Iron Man. In fact, he's a combination of all three characters. There's no reason to bring up Green Lantern or Fantastic Four. I'm using the precedent established by Marvel Studios and that is, far fetched sci-fi is perfectly acceptable in every Avenger related movie.

The Marvel Studio films work because they only change what they absolutely have to and they keep the characters as true to the source as possible.

Black Panther is not a king of an average tribe. If he was he wouldn't be able to figure out a car engine let alone the Ion Man suit. So Wakanda needs to be technologically advanced to explain why Black Panther is one of the most formidable minds on the planet.

Unless you want to change that too.

Quote:
This argument "They accepted X from Thor" is so blind to me. This logic seems ignore *why* they accepted X or Y or Z from Thor, as though if audiences accept dreams as cool in Inception, they cannot possibly think Sucker Punch is stupid or confusing or worse, derivative. Black Panther has to be able to stand on its own, like the rest of the MCU, like all other good films, or else, simply put, it's not a good film.

Edit: Captain America, as a film, doesn't really stand on its own, actually. That's why it, and it's lead, are ranked lower critically and commercially. If it wasn't a lead in to Avengers it would have tanked, and the random non-real world fantastical elements inserted into real world history would have seemed even more intrusive and out of place. I want better for T'Challa.
Your Inception versus Sucker Punch only proves my point.

People are willing to accept the weirdest concepts (using technology to invade dreams within dreams within other dreams) if the movie is executed properly.

Wakanda can work if it's executed well. Just like Asgard, Cosmic Cubes and Hulk (who audiences rejected in two reparate solo movies yet loved in Avengers).

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Old 03-18-2013, 08:08 PM   #696
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What Lee, Ditko and Kirby created is a notable stretch from what we see now. Originally, it was pretty much Dark Africa with a Tony Stark (edit: Actually, Reed Richards) in charge. Now? It's Coruscant. Hidden Coruscant. With Spears. That's a lot to ask of a culture that doesn't know Africa even has concrete. I could see some value in going the Thor route with a long lost hidden kingdom that has removed itself from the world, much as Asgard has, but with invisibility rather than closing the doors - but I think it would be truer to the original origin, and much more appealing to the masses, to have T'Challa make Wakanda a super power, rather than it come like that out the box.

Edit: Y'know, that might be an interesting role for T'Challa in the MCU. They say they want something totally original, let T'Challa be the cosmic science guy, let *him* be the Reed Richards like contact for the rest of the world... that should put Wakanda on Coruscant status in short order... I could dig that.
What's wrong with them using a high tech defense system to protect their indigenous way of life for centuries.

It's called political and historical subtext and it's one of the rare occasions comic books ever address the misguided attempts to colonize and westernize indigenous people.

The Wakanda being advances says three important things:

1) Indigenous tribes have a form of integrity that deserves preservation

2) That African culture had legitimate reasons to resist colonization

3) Ideally if Africans had advanced technology it would be noble to use it simply to defend their way of life


There's no reason to change them to appease anyone. If people don't like Wakanda being advanced then they wouldn't like the true Black Panther anyway. He's a suspicious and distrustful character because his nation is that way. He's a brilliant yet indigenous African because his nation is that way.

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Old 03-18-2013, 09:23 PM   #697
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Something I never thought I'd see...W'kabi cosplayed

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Old 03-18-2013, 09:26 PM   #698
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Badass

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:25 AM   #699
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Yes, it's very cute.

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Old 03-19-2013, 08:49 AM   #700
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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You missed my point. I didn't say the BP film doesn't need viewers. I'm saying having Wakanda have a defense shield won't be a deal breaker for anyone. You won't lose any viewers by including it. Black Panther has alot more in common with Captain America, Thor and Iron Man. In fact, he's a combination of all three characters. There's no reason to bring up Green Lantern or Fantastic Four. I'm using the precedent established by Marvel Studios and that is, far fetched sci-fi is perfectly acceptable in every Avenger related movie.

The Marvel Studio films work because they only change what they absolutely have to and they keep the characters as true to the source as possible.

Black Panther is not a king of an average tribe. If he was he wouldn't be able to figure out a car engine let alone the Ion Man suit. So Wakanda needs to be technologically advanced to explain why Black Panther is one of the most formidable minds on the planet.

Unless you want to change that too.
Again, this idea of a 'deal breaker.' The reason that I bring up GL and FF is so that you can understand that just because you don't have a "deal breaker" doesn't mean you won't lose viewers. That far fetched Sci Fi was acceptable too, but it didn't help those films.

In real life, savants come out of nowhere and blow away the rest of the science world without having come from advanced societies all the time. This has been depicted in movies often, even in Iron Man. So why is T'Challa the only character that needs a technologically advanced country in order to be one of the most formidable minds on the planet? That makes him look weaker than Stark and Banner, and underlines the "black people can't earn their own way" subtext you think you're working against.

When you say changes that have to happen... how do you know what those are? Why did Thor *absolutely have* to be an alien from a planet called Asgard? Why did Iron Man *absolutely have* to reveal his identity? Why did Captain America *absolutely have* to have a story revolving around the Cosmic Cube? Did Nick Fury * absolutely have* to be Black? At some point, you should probably notice comics accuracy is not priority number 1.

On a side note: BP being a combo of Thor, Iron Man and Captain America doesn't bode well for them making a film out of him, unfortunately. They want to "do things they haven't done before."

Quote:
Your Inception versus Sucker Punch only proves my point.

People are willing to accept the weirdest concepts (using technology to invade dreams within dreams within other dreams) if the movie is executed properly.

Wakanda can work if it's executed well. Just like Asgard, Cosmic Cubes and Hulk (who audiences rejected in two reparate solo movies yet loved in Avengers).
You understand things have to be executed well, but when they're thought through that's "overthinking it." So how do you execute well without overthinking? What does 'executed well' mean to you? What is the proper way to execute something in a film?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123 View Post
What's wrong with them using a high tech defense system to protect their indigenous way of life for centuries.

It's called political and historical subtext and it's one of the rare occasions comic books ever address the misguided attempts to colonize and westernize indigenous people.

The Wakanda being advances says three important things:

1) Indigenous tribes have a form of integrity that deserves preservation

2) That African culture had legitimate reasons to resist colonization

3) Ideally if Africans had advanced technology it would be noble to use it simply to defend their way of life


There's no reason to change them to appease anyone. If people don't like Wakanda being advanced then they wouldn't like the true Black Panther anyway. He's a suspicious and distrustful character because his nation is that way. He's a brilliant yet indigenous African because his nation is that way.
I was pretty clear on the defense issue: A high tech African super power doesn't mesh with with real world history at all. To be clear: it has nothing to do with what it is, and everything to do with how it got that way. No one is saying T'Challa shouldn't be epic, but people are questioning why Stark Industries at the beginning of Iron Man relates directly to all these military contractors, and is perceived as such, why Asgard in the beginning of Thor relates directly to our Norse myths, and is perceived as such, why Captain America's SIS and Hydra relates directly to WWII military divisions, but uber-Wakanda-from-the-beginning doesn't relate to anything in the real world, but we're still supposed to perceive it as realistic?

Some try to make it like 'oh they just don't like Black people being awesome' thing, but it's not. It's a storytelling thing. It'd be different if we were saying T'Challa shouldn't be awesome, or that Wakanda shouldn't be a world super power by the end of the film. Simply: let those things be earned from the audience. That's the precedent established by Marvel studios - earning every bit of sci fi - not having uber sci fi handed to you as a history lesson. The Marvel way is with great power (having uber crazy sci fi in the film) comes great responsibility (having to build up each sci fi element based on the audiences care for a particular character), and you, good sir, are *not* using the Marvel Studios precedent.

Using superior tech to make moral statements is perceived as dumb/jerkish, whether it's done by Hudlins BP or the real life USA.

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Last edited by DrCosmic; 03-19-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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