EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

[Rowsdower!]

So is this movie happening or not? It seems like a lot of people want it, but I'm gathering Marvel thinks more people would be interested in... an Ant-Man movie? WTF?

[roach]

Originally Posted by Rowsdower!

So is this movie happening or not? It seems like a lot of people want it, but I'm gathering Marvel thinks more people would be interested in... an Ant-Man movie? WTF?

Marvel wants to do BP...the thing is BP is a little more difficult than Antman....Antman has a director who wants to do the movie...and since Marvel wasn't planning on doing him they said ok.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by roach

Marvel wants to do BP...the thing is BP is a little more difficult than Antman....Antman has a director who wants to do the movie...and since Marvel wasn't planning on doing him they said ok.

I don't think BP is a "difficult" movie to make, nor do I think Marvel thinks so. I think the decision to put GOTG and Ant-Man ahead of a T'challa movie has everything to do with what the plan is for Phase II. We know Thanos is going to be very important to Phase II, so GOTG is the ideal venue for The Mad Titan to be introduced and developed. Ant-Man, as far as I can see, is being developed mainly at the whim of Edgar Wright, who even admits he's taking the "Terrence Malick approach" to it --- which means it might release next year, or ten years from now.

[marcvader]

He actually said that?

[Chewy]

Yeah he said it jokingly at the comic con panel (they were talking about how he was there in 2006 at the first Marvel Studios panel)

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by DarKush

LS,

How many events in comics are there that can't be considered contrived or stunts? I don't see why the Storm-BP marriage gets undying hate from some quarters for allegedly being rushed or contrived when there was some precedent for it from Priest and even earlier. I grant you that they could have spent more time developing the relationship over a period of years, but Hudlin/Marvel wanted the event and they wanted it when they wanted it. But Marvel did attempt to build on the marriage with the Storm miniseries written by Eric J. Dickey, as you've acknowledged. As for Storm/Forge, I know they had some history in the comics and if the writers had went the marriage route with them, okay, but do you really think it would've led to a bigger role for either character? And with Wolverine, there's no way that relationship would've lasted and Storm would've just become another of Logan's many conquests. But with the T'Challa-Ororo pairing there is a potential-largely underused by Marvel-to up the profile of both characters and to exploit both the Avengers/X-Men franchises that have become pretty much Marvel's biggest focus. And it has been about six years since the marriage, why are people still harping on how they came together? Multiple people, not just Hudlin, have written about the marriage at this point, so why continue to demonize him over it?

I had a really detailed, multi-paragraph response to this post last night and the Hype Lag ate it up completely. I was so pissed off after having worked on it so hard that I just logged off and went to bed.

But in short, people are still demonizing Hudlin over this because it happened on his watch. Many, like myself, feel he's a capitalist and used similar business tactics for BET (dumbing down the network to appeal to the lowest common denominator) for T'Challa's development. He took a sophisticated character and stripped him to appeal to a wider mainstream audience. Then he took two of Black Comicdom's greatest characters and hitched them for a marketing ploy in Black History Month.

I just think he sold both characters out...kinda like he did with BET.

[DarKush]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

1.) I don't see why we MUST have a black director to do a proper BP film. I want a STRONG director, whether he's black, white or whatever. There are plenty of white directors who are more than capable of managing this story successfully.

We need someone who has a firm grasp on action film development. Please Marvel, don't pity out on the color issue. Look at Tim Story: black and out of his league on the FF franchise. Get someone qualified.

2.) Villain? Kraven The Hunter. F...T...W....

1) While I agree that there are many white directors capable of managing a Black Panther film and doing it well, I do think that a black director might (though not guaranteed) bring a sensibility and nuance to the black characters that a white director might not. So ultimately I want the film made, with a good director, of any color, but hopefully one that will have a good feel for the material. I think your knock against Tim Story was unfair. If he hadn't been a qualified, successful director before getting the FF movies he wouldn't have been picked in the first place. Second, both FF movies made money. They might not have been colossal blockbusters but I don't think they deserve the unremitting hate from the fanboys either. Neither film was a bomb.

2) I do think Kraven would be a good villain for Black Panther though.

[DarKush]

Originally Posted by Lightning Strykez!

I had a really detailed, multi-paragraph response to this post last night and the Hype Lag ate it up completely. I was so pissed off after having worked on it so hard that I just logged off and went to bed.

But in short, people are still demonizing Hudlin over this because it happened on his watch. Many, like myself, feel he's a capitalist and used similar business tactics for BET (dumbing down the network to appeal to the lowest common denominator) for T'Challa's development. He took a sophisticated character and stripped him to appeal to a wider mainstream audience. Then he took two of Black Comicdom's greatest characters and hitched them for a marketing ploy in Black History Month.

I just think he sold both characters out...kinda like he did with BET.

BET is a whole other issue and there were a lot of hands involved in BET's current state, however you feel about that positively or negatively. If anything I think you should direct your ire towards former owner Bob Johnson.

That being said, Hudlin's desire to expand the audience wasn't a bad thing. That's what each writer of Panther has tried to do, with the most successful being Priest and Hudlin. (I was a kid during the McGregor-Kirby days so I don't know how successful the comic was during the 70s). So Hudlin's 'dumbed down' approach did work. I do think that Hudlin tried to expand his audience to people of color whereas it seems that Priest, Maberry, and Liss's stories seemed to try to corral more of that dwindling number of white fanboys.

And what's wrong with marketing something for Black History Month? A lot of companies market things for Black History Month and a variety of holidays. Comic companies included. Now with that being said I think the marriage was something far more than a mere plot to exploit Black History Month. I think the wedding had wider reverberations throughout all fandom. And Hudlin gave us comic's first black supercouple, which was an amazing thing. The idea of black married supers being front and center was something we hadn't seen much of at either DC or Marvel. It was a very big deal, especially when you consider all of the negative media about the state of the black family. The Storm-Panther marriage was a powerful statement, an affirmation of black love in a media that often ignores if not outright distorts it, and I am glad that Hudlin and Marvel did it. And Hudlin didn't pull it out of his hat, there was some precedent for Storm and Panther being together as I've written before. I don't think Hudlin sold either character out. I think he set it up for Marvel to take them places they hadn't been before. The marriage opened doors for both characters. If not for the marriage, would Storm have gotten her miniseries? Or even joined the Avengers? Or had as prominent a role as she has had thus far in AvX? And conversely with T'Challa, would he have been involved in any of the X-Men storylines or mentioned as much as he is post-marriage throughout the Marvel Universe?

Sorry LS, but just about everyone in the comics business is a capitalist, and the bottom dollar is the most important thing for them whether they want it to be or not.

People continue to hate on Hudlin long after he was off the book. But are pretty silent about Maberry and Liss who had far shorter runs than he did. Hudlin's run upped T'Challa's profile in a way that none of the other writers of the modern era-even Priest-did. And Panther approached something close to mainstream success, with the wedding and getting a cartoon, and now being in the Marvel cartoon movies and on the Avengers. I think it's time to stop hating on Hudlin and give the man some credit, whether you liked all of his decisions or not.

Even he admits that he didn't always bring his A game to Panther, due to his other commitments, but still his work has been an integral part of Panther's current relevance.

[DrCosmic]

Here here Kush. I definitely agree. I understand the other point of view, where Hudlin did this and didn't do that, and he deserves genuine criticism, but treating him like pariah after all he was able to accomplish, I can't get that. Marvel even tried to continuously publish T'Challa there for a while, which they weren't doing before Hudlin. The commercialness paid off, just as it has for other characters.

[terry78]

The thing is they'd have to give him some more defining personality traits aside from just being steeped in tradition and Batman-esque. You don't want him to be boring as a character. Avengers: EMH didn't really flesh him out.

[chamber-music]

A picture of Chiwetel Ejiofor as T’Challa I came across

[marcvader]

Very cool.

[DrCosmic]

That's fly. Doesn't look like Ejiofor to me, but still quite fly. Very 'right' for a movie, minus the golden claws... those always look uglier to me the more realistic they are.

Originally Posted by terry78

The thing is they'd have to give him some more defining personality traits aside from just being steeped in tradition and Batman-esque. You don't want him to be boring as a character. Avengers: EMH didn't really flesh him out.

They didn't. EMH is interesting, they give T'Challa his respect in spades, but they don't develop him as a person. That's really sad to me. You don't even see his face, I don't think. It's like, I want to be happy since BP is what he should be, but it's sad that even when they respect the character, it's still yet another black character that white writers just can't figure out how to humanize and give an arc and a personal story to.

[Nightwing]

That pic is incredibly well done.

[terry78]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

That's fly. Doesn't look like Ejiofor to me, but still quite fly. Very 'right' for a movie, minus the golden claws... those always look uglier to me the more realistic they are.



They didn't. EMH is interesting, they give T'Challa his respect in spades, but they don't develop him as a person. That's really sad to me. You don't even see his face, I don't think. It's like, I want to be happy since BP is what he should be, but it's sad that even when they respect the character, it's still yet another black character that white writers just can't figure out how to humanize and give an arc and a personal story to.

As much as we debate it, that is the one thing Hudlin did do, give him more of a persona. I think he probably works best as someone trying to do the right thing for his people, but kind of being pulled eight different ways by everyone regarding it. Not whiny, but you know.

[DrCosmic]

I agree. I think of Wakanda as his character flaw, more than arrogance. I think, though they were using it trying to make him suck, an issue of X-Men got it right. When given the choice between saving his wife, and saving his country. T'Challa chooses Wakanda every time. He's very nationalist, to a fault, because of the pressure he's under, and the weight of his legacy.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by DarKush

BET is a whole other issue and there were a lot of hands involved in BET's current state, however you feel about that positively or negatively. If anything I think you should direct your ire towards former owner Bob Johnson.

That being said, Hudlin's desire to expand the audience wasn't a bad thing. That's what each writer of Panther has tried to do, with the most successful being Priest and Hudlin. (I was a kid during the McGregor-Kirby days so I don't know how successful the comic was during the 70s). So Hudlin's 'dumbed down' approach did work. I do think that Hudlin tried to expand his audience to people of color whereas it seems that Priest, Maberry, and Liss's stories seemed to try to corral more of that dwindling number of white fanboys.

And what's wrong with marketing something for Black History Month? A lot of companies market things for Black History Month and a variety of holidays. Comic companies included. Now with that being said I think the marriage was something far more than a mere plot to exploit Black History Month. I think the wedding had wider reverberations throughout all fandom. And Hudlin gave us comic's first black supercouple, which was an amazing thing. The idea of black married supers being front and center was something we hadn't seen much of at either DC or Marvel. It was a very big deal, especially when you consider all of the negative media about the state of the black family. The Storm-Panther marriage was a powerful statement, an affirmation of black love in a media that often ignores if not outright distorts it, and I am glad that Hudlin and Marvel did it. And Hudlin didn't pull it out of his hat, there was some precedent for Storm and Panther being together as I've written before. I don't think Hudlin sold either character out. I think he set it up for Marvel to take them places they hadn't been before. The marriage opened doors for both characters. If not for the marriage, would Storm have gotten her miniseries? Or even joined the Avengers? Or had as prominent a role as she has had thus far in AvX? And conversely with T'Challa, would he have been involved in any of the X-Men storylines or mentioned as much as he is post-marriage throughout the Marvel Universe?

Sorry LS, but just about everyone in the comics business is a capitalist, and the bottom dollar is the most important thing for them whether they want it to be or not.

People continue to hate on Hudlin long after he was off the book. But are pretty silent about Maberry and Liss who had far shorter runs than he did. Hudlin's run upped T'Challa's profile in a way that none of the other writers of the modern era-even Priest-did. And Panther approached something close to mainstream success, with the wedding and getting a cartoon, and now being in the Marvel cartoon movies and on the Avengers. I think it's time to stop hating on Hudlin and give the man some credit, whether you liked all of his decisions or not.

Even he admits that he didn't always bring his A game to Panther, due to his other commitments, but still his work has been an integral part of Panther's current relevance.

DarKush,

I don't agree with many of the points you made above, but you certainly articulated them well.

[Lightning Strykez!]

Originally Posted by DarKush

1) While I agree that there are many white directors capable of managing a Black Panther film and doing it well, I do think that a black director might (though not guaranteed) bring a sensibility and nuance to the black characters that a white director might not. So ultimately I want the film made, with a good director, of any color, but hopefully one that will have a good feel for the material. I think your knock against Timtory was unfair. If he hadn't been a qualified, successful director before getting the FF movies he wouldn't have been picked in the first place. Second, both FF movies made money. They might not have been colossal blockbusters but I don't think they deserve the unremitting hate from the fanboys either. Neither film was a bomb.

2) I do think Kraven would be a good villain for Black Panther though.

Tim Story had had one successful film (Barbershop) and one bomb (Taxi) prior to developing Fantastic Four. Both were comedies. He wasn't qualified in terms of developing an CBM action property in the vein of what was already existing for Marvel films. He struggled with translating that sitcom feel to the big screen and for that the critics and audiences villified both films. The writing and acting was horrific in much of both films. Yes, he put forth a valiant effort--and I respect that. But he was totally out of his league.

Yes, they were modest commercial successes, but critically they were among the worst regarded CBMs. I think one was around 20-something percent on RT.

And they are hard to watch a second time. LOL

My point is, don't just give a director the role because he's black. That will gain us little if the story, writing, etc., is wiggedy-wack.

[E-Man]

I think that EMH did T'Challa right by having him be mysterious and strategic, but they could have developed his character more. They got off to a good start, but they really needed a good arc to break his character down. The reason why that works well is because of how T'Challa joined the Avengers in the first place where he wanted to spy on them. The only problem with that is that most people aren't aware of his intentions.

[DarKush]

LS,

Fair enough about not agreeing with me. As for Story, I don't think the issue of competence was the fault of the FF movies critical panning. Perhaps Story might have been out of his element, but that doesn't mean he was an incompetent director. And despite his background in comedies he did helm two financially successful comic book movies. Granted they might not have been all things to all people, but personally I liked them both, and I'm not a fan of the FF in comics.

Now about black directors. I don't think its an absolute must that a Black Panther film, or a Luke Cage film or any film with a black superhero lead has to be filmed by a black director. But that being said, I do think black directors might be better able to find the humanity in black characters than white directors and writers (whether for comics or screenplays) have done. The ongoing discussion about T'Challa's lack of development in Avengers: EMH is just one more example of a disconnect between white writers and black characters.

[E-Man]

One thing a black director might do is keep a black character from being too underpowered. I don't think that a black director would let a black character lose his shine to a white guy when he's the lead, nor would he/she let the black character get killed in a stupid manner like with Darwin. I'be said plenty of times that it doesn't need to be a black director, but a black director would probably be looking out for T'Challa.

[Lightning Strykez!]

^ My head explodes when I read that E-Man. I seriously don't get it.

T'Challa is a King. And he'd be the lead character....in a cast full of probably 90% black characters....set in Africa. What does he have to lose there?

[terry78]

I'm just afraid of us getting some white guy who is seen as the POV character aka the main character as a technicality while T'Challa is almost seen from afar.

[RockSP]

^^a/k/a how hollywood always tells stories set in Africa.

[roach]

Marvel is treading lightly on this...any mistakes and they may look like they have racist tendencies...on the other hand they are giving a chance to a black director who may never get a chance to direct a big budget superhero film