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Old 07-19-2012, 01:39 AM   #176
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Well the over reaction to Marvel's statement show in those two articles is just the difficulty Marvel is talking about. You don't have Norse Gods all over the web waiting to call foul if you "screw up" in Thor - but you do with Panther. All they are saying is that they want to get it right, and it sounds like they are taking their time to do so. I bet you can hear the race baiters ******ing about "Man-Ape" even now...

I guess it depends on who's Panther we are talking about doing. One of the articles said his home land was not crazy advanced - yet in his first appearance he presents Reed Richards with a flying car that almost had Reed scratching his head - that sounds pretty advanced to me.

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Old 07-19-2012, 05:04 AM   #177
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Well the over reaction to Marvel's statement show in those two articles is just the difficulty Marvel is talking about. You don't have Norse Gods all over the web waiting to call foul if you "screw up" in Thor - but you do with Panther. All they are saying is that they want to get it right, and it sounds like they are taking their time to do so. I bet you can hear the race baiters ******ing about "Man-Ape" even now...

I guess it depends on who's Panther we are talking about doing. One of the articles said his home land was not crazy advanced - yet in his first appearance he presents Reed Richards with a flying car that almost had Reed scratching his head - that sounds pretty advanced to me.
You hit the nail on the head. It isn't that they are afraid that they can't create a fictional African country. They are afraid (and rightly so) that the slightest perceived imperfection would be touted as deliberate due to the race of the lead character.

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Old 07-19-2012, 08:03 AM   #178
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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You hit the nail on the head. It isn't that they are afraid that they can't create a fictional African country. They are afraid (and rightly so) that the slightest perceived imperfection would be touted as deliberate due to the race of the lead character.
Yeah, you guys are right. I think that's why they need to focus on being true to the comics and the character and making a kick-ass story that people will love. I think they can wash their hands of any perceived imperfections if it's a great movie that's true to the spirit of BP.

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Old 07-19-2012, 09:45 AM   #179
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i feel that we've discussed this a lot but I keep forgetting what the consensus is.

Who should be the love interest in a BP film? Because there's a 99% chance that he'll have one
Another good indication of who the real main character is: Who has the love interest?

If it's not New York based, nay to Monica Lynne. I say some Wakandan homegrown: Nakia, Okoye or my favorite: both. Monica Lynne works great as a window character, like the doctor girl from Blade 1, but I think, ideally, T'Challa could be his own window character, unlike Thor for instance.

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Old 07-19-2012, 09:58 AM   #180
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Make Monica a CIA/gov't agent I think that'll make her more interesting

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Old 07-19-2012, 10:42 AM   #181
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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-Could y have Priest/Lee work together?
-How about Neill Blomkamp?

-James Cameron?
Don't know if Priest and Stan Lee would be good in the realm of cinema, but having them around as consultants wouldn't be so bad. That way they can have input on what the character of T'Challa and Wakanda is like, but not so much influence that they take over the movie in an area where they aren't familiar.

Blomkamp might be good. I like District 9.

Cameron would be too expensive, but if they could get him on there I wonder how he would do it.

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You hit the nail on the head. It isn't that they are afraid that they can't create a fictional African country. They are afraid (and rightly so) that the slightest perceived imperfection would be touted as deliberate due to the race of the lead character.
This is a cop out. While there are certainly some people who would complain that it wasn't done right by the character it isn't a reason to say that it's difficult to do a movie featuring Wakanda. It happens in nearly every comic movie where people complain that it isn't perfect, but those people are a small minority that won't be pleased anyway. It happens with literally every movie that is an adaptation of a previous property in a different medium. It's nothing new, and so called race baiters wouldn't even be a factor in the movie unless they actually did something stupid and racist in the movie.

Besides, this is the same cop out that many people have been using for years in comics. "Well we would write more black characters, but you guys complain whenever we give you one." Not only do they limit the characters that they write, but they also use tokens to represent the entire race. You know why white people don't complain about Spider-man? Because they have a ton of other characters to choose from. Don't like Batman? There's Iron Man, Superman, and even some more lower level people for you. With black people it's not that easy, and when they have an opportunity to make a diverse land full of different representations of black people they use the old "difficult" cop out. They have no problem creating one black guy to hang with Captain America and be his sidekick, but when there is a chance to create a wide array of a terribly underdeveloped minority they say it's too difficult.

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Old 07-19-2012, 10:55 AM   #182
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I love Black Panther. Unfortunately, I see him getting a sh**ty costume so Marvel can avoid the Batman comparisons.

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #183
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I'll break it down for you even better now that I'm on my home computer instead of my phone.

I'm cool with a director that isn't black. I've even suggested Ang Lee and Peter Jackson for a BP movie. There are plenty of non black directors that could do the character justice. Just like how in the comics Black Panther has been written well by white writers in the past, and one of the portrayals I hate is from a black guy.

But if there is a black director I bet that they would give T'Challa his just due in terms of powers. We wouldn't have to worry about many limitations placed on the character because a black director would want to see that, and he/she would see the importance of him getting that shine instead of limiting him. That's one of the only things I liked about the Hudlin run up until he jobbed him out to Doom like a punk. Up until the female Panther gimmick got pushed Hudlin made sure that T'Challa kicked ass. He even had an interview where he talks about how he didn't like how T'Challa would get beat up a lot in the Jungle Action run. Even though I like that run I didn't like how T'Challa was basically that guy who overcame obstacles barely with a lot of help or luck. It's an inspiring story to have the hero overcome the odds that are stacked against him by reaching down and pulling himself up out of the fire, but it happened way too often.

One thing I noticed with a lot of black characters is that they have good powers, but there is always this "but" there that keeps them from being elite. Black Panther is this great king with great physical attributes and resources, "but" he's definitely not superhuman, and where he gets that limit no one minds when Captain America sometimes surpasses that limit he's supposed to be the benchmark for. Storm is very powerful, "but" she isn't an Omega level mutant, nor as strong as all of those damn Summers in the X-titles. Luke Cage is super strong and durable, "but" he's the weakest brick on Marvel Earth by a large margin. Blade has cool vampire powers that let him heal, "but" he's not on Wolverine or Deadpool's level in terms of healing factor. John Stewart is powerful as hell because he's a Green Lantern, "but" so are the other Lanterns. Spawn is powerful, "but" he's not really black anymore because he's burned and he's been replaced anyway.

Basically many black heroes seem to be limited by this glass ceiling type thing. That's not saying that white writers make them that way, or that white writers are racist. Hell Stan wrote Black Panther up very highly. I say Stan because when Kirby was writing the book BP was barely the star, and he just sort of got shocked at **** and occasionally punched something. But when black writers have written black characters they never put limits on them. Some of them might have the character do crazy stuff they shouldn't, but they never limit them. Just look at Milestone for instance. Static was powerful as hell. He wasn't some uber powerful god, but there were always moments when he did something amazing that showed off his skills. When Priest wrote Black Panther he did many an amazing thing. Grevioux probably wrote the most capable Night Thrasher yet, and that's saying a lot when you consider that Fabian Niceiza did a damn good job making him a bad ass in the 90s. McDuffie may get a lot of flack for that chicken wing armlock Black Panther put Silver Surfer in, but beyond that he has always written black characters without any silly limitations.

Once again, I'm not saying that it has to be a black director. If you gave me the power and money to make this movie there's a damn good chance that the director wouldn't be black. But one thing I bet a black director would do is make sure that there are no stupid Hollywood restrictions placed on Black Panther. Just think about what was said by that Marvel exec at Comic Con. He said that it was difficult to make Wakanda, but the ******** just fills the air because they're talking about doing a movie with a damn talking tree and a freaking talking raccoon. They've done a movie about space gods in a different realm with a damn rainbow bridge, but Wakanda is difficult? My cynicism won't let me just believe that Wakanda is this super hard place to portray. Those comments lead me to believe that Black Panther might be limited in his movie, and I want a director with some clout that would tell them that there is nothing wrong with T'Challa actually coming up with a cool plan and winning the day due to his brains and physical attributes.

SPOILERS below

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
One thing that sort of brings this up is that I watched Safe House a few weeks back. I'm going to reveal some big spoilers here. In the movie Denzel dies while Ryan Reynolds lives and learns a big lesson from Denzel's character's actions. It made me think about how Denzel has had a few decently budgeted action movies with some good hype over the years, and in nearly every one of them he dies. I could understand Training Day since he was a corrupt cop, but did he really need to die in Man on Fire, The Book of Eli, and Safe House? In every one of those deaths he dies while his white co-star lives. Why can't they let the black man live? You think something like that would happen with Matt Damon? Even a middle level guy like Liam Neeson would probably survive if he were cast in those roles, but with Denzel it feels as if they're saying, "Alright. Y'all have had enough of the black dude winning. Time to kill him and let the white guy continue the journey now."
Good post, but I have to disagree about Storm. She is for all intents and purposes an Omega level mutant. Even Marvel themselves have stated that it is something that needs to be confirmed. Writers (yes, the white ones) have been good to her in terms of showcasing the extent of her powers--even beyond the earthly realm. And some writers, like Chris Claremont, are obsessed with having her show off on Jean Grey levels sometimes. She's been long regarded as one of the X-Men's most powerful members of all time.

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:12 AM   #184
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Wasn't TAXI between the two FF movies?
If memory serves, it came out just before the first FF film. But I could be wrong. The bottom line is the film was dripping with copious amounts of suck. There was such a high level of 25% Rotten Tomato rated films coming from Tim at that time, it all kinda ran together which is why the buzz was soooo bad for FF1.

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:46 AM   #185
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All I know is they better not, I repeat, better f***ing not make BP for the "urban audiences"

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Old 07-19-2012, 11:50 AM   #186
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Blackman, what the hell is that silhouette doing in your avatar???

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:08 PM   #187
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bobbing his head. It's from teh boondocks

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:10 PM   #188
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This is a cop out. While there are certainly some people who would complain that it wasn't done right by the character it isn't a reason to say that it's difficult to do a movie featuring Wakanda. It happens in nearly every comic movie where people complain that it isn't perfect, but those people are a small minority that won't be pleased anyway. It happens with literally every movie that is an adaptation of a previous property in a different medium. It's nothing new, and so called race baiters wouldn't even be a factor in the movie unless they actually did something stupid and racist in the movie.

Besides, this is the same cop out that many people have been using for years in comics. "Well we would write more black characters, but you guys complain whenever we give you one." Not only do they limit the characters that they write, but they also use tokens to represent the entire race. You know why white people don't complain about Spider-man? Because they have a ton of other characters to choose from. Don't like Batman? There's Iron Man, Superman, and even some more lower level people for you. With black people it's not that easy, and when they have an opportunity to make a diverse land full of different representations of black people they use the old "difficult" cop out. They have no problem creating one black guy to hang with Captain America and be his sidekick, but when there is a chance to create a wide array of a terribly underdeveloped minority they say it's too difficult.
There is a world of difference between the type of complaints normally heard over a Spider-Man, FF, X-men, etc. movie and complaints of imperfections placed in movies, deliberately or accidentally, that will be decried racist in nature or motivation. If you can't see that, there's not really much reason to continue that line of discussion. Let's just say that complaints such as Spidey's webshooters being organic aren't going to potentially hurt a big company's long term success like charges of racism would. IMO Disney probably looks at its stable of Marvel characters and says, 'As many people as there are who would be hypervigilant about racism in a BP film (potential behavior confirmed by comments on these boards) it would be less of a hassle to just forego a BP film and focus on someone else. I mean it isn't like we have a shortage or anything.'

I have nothing against black characters in comics. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I love some Luke Cage and BP. Some questions though: Should white writers be obliged to write black characters? You provide the statement that you say is a copout and then provide reasons why it isn't. It's almost like you're saying 'yeah, we complain when you write a black character in a way that we perceive as wrong but keep on doing it anyway or I'll complain about that.' When someone is damned if they do and damned if they don't, they usually 'don't'. Which leads to the second question: why would a black person want someone to keep writing a black character if thay can do nothing but complain about how the writer writes that character?

What about other minority characters (American Indian, Chinese, Japanese, East Indian, Middle Eastern)? Are they as well- or proportionally-represented as black characters? Are there complaints about why there is a shortage of these characters or how they are written? I havent heard any charges of racism or in fact heard any complaints at all though all of these races are surely not as promimently represented as black characters. Why is that?

And how long have you been on these boards? You obviously don't pay attention if you say white people don't complain about Spider-Man.

So again, Disney's choice: cop out and focus on characters not nearly as risky to their bottom line or take the chance of getting labeled racist. Hmm, yup, that is a tough choice.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:28 PM   #189
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Make Monica a CIA/gov't agent I think that'll make her more interesting
It would, and also give her a more legitimate reason to be there than "I brought my girlfriend along." I just saw a Black Panther Party documentary in which one of the high ranking female leaders is thought to have been a government agent... so that'd be a bit of a scary parallel, but otherwise, a head over heels improvement, and somehow a lot more stomachable than the similar change with Moira McTaggert.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:51 PM   #190
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So again, Disney's choice: cop out and focus on characters not nearly as risky to their bottom line or take the chance of getting labeled racist. Hmm, yup, that is a tough choice.
You make a really, really strong point. I think you're a bit off when it comes to the bottom line being the issue. There is plenty of prejudiced entertainment out there, that's been identified as such and is still quite successful. I don't think the money is the concern. I think the issue is a sense of pride, not only that their earnest efforts may be mischaracterized, but that they will lose that sort of fan warmth which is part of the attraction of these properties. I think the choice is between feelgood money and money that comes with social guilt. The result is the same, but I thought it was an important enough distinction to point out.

I also think that the challenge in humanizing a black character and making a black country mainstream does come up at some point. I suspect they are as aware of these challenges as we are, which also goes into the decision. What's really interesting is that they are still determined to make a Black Panther film, despite all the challenges.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:58 PM   #191
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Another good indication of who the real main character is: Who has the love interest?

If it's not New York based, nay to Monica Lynne. I say some Wakandan homegrown: Nakia, Okoye or my favorite: both. Monica Lynne works great as a window character, like the doctor girl from Blade 1, but I think, ideally, T'Challa could be his own window character, unlike Thor for instance.
Boy, I certainly HOPE a movie about an African super hero is NOT New York based. The vast majority - if not ALL - of the movie should be in AFRICA! I don't think Klaw was American, so I see no point in having anything "American" to do with the movie at all.

Now having said that, I would be happy to see a '40's segment showing a meeting between the Panther of that era and Captain America [or even Stark's pop, if Evans will not do it] - something to establish the isolation attitude of Wakanda at the time, it's advanced tech even then, etc.

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #192
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Disney has made cartoons featuring black characters, so I do not think they are shy about a black hero movie - again, I think Marvel just wants to take the time to do it right - they have not said that they are not doing it, have they?

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:02 PM   #193
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I woulndt mind the climax being in NYC. Particularly the UN building

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:19 PM   #194
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You make a really, really strong point. I think you're a bit off when it comes to the bottom line being the issue. There is plenty of prejudiced entertainment out there, that's been identified as such and is still quite successful. I don't think the money is the concern. I think the issue is a sense of pride, not only that their earnest efforts may be mischaracterized, but that they will lose that sort of fan warmth which is part of the attraction of these properties. I think the choice is between feelgood money and money that comes with social guilt. The result is the same, but I thought it was an important enough distinction to point out.
Just for curiosity's sake, tell me an example of entertainment that is perceived as prejudiced against black people that is quite successful, because there is a distinction. There are things allowed in the way of making fun of white people that isn't acceptable when applied to most any minority race.

I will semi-agree with your point about the reason for Disney's skittishness. I have a LOT of association with Disney and, more than any other company I can think of, they bend over backwards to be PC to the point of being ridiculous. Which makes even allusions to anything they do being deliberately racist seem laughable. But as you say, the upshot is the same either way.

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I also think that the challenge in humanizing a black character and making a black country mainstream does come up at some point. I suspect they are as aware of these challenges as we are, which also goes into the decision. What's really interesting is that they are still determined to make a Black Panther film, despite all the challenges.
Maybe you should talk to e-man. He thinks it should be no challenge at all and it's just a copout. As someone else said, I too immediately thought of BP when I saw 'Coming to America'. I wonder if they sat around agonizing over whether or not what they portrayed would be perceived as racist? Perhaps they should get the people behind that production to do a BP film.

And I too find it VERY interesting, considering the potential 'challenges' on which our current discussion is based, that they are determined to make a BP film.

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Old 07-19-2012, 01:57 PM   #195
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Just for curiosity's sake, tell me an example of entertainment that is perceived as prejudiced against black people that is quite successful, because there is a distinction. There are things allowed in the way of making fun of white people that isn't acceptable when applied to most any minority race.

I will semi-agree with your point about the reason for Disney's skittishness. I have a LOT of association with Disney and, more than any other company I can think of, they bend over backwards to be PC to the point of being ridiculous. Which makes even allusions to anything they do being deliberately racist seem laughable. But as you say, the upshot is the same either way.
Hmmmm... i suppose a lot of my examples are about the non-inclusion of black people, but certainly Dragonball Z and Naruto have thrived with Mr. Popo and Killer Bee, and everyone understands "the black guy dies," but that doesn't stop them from enjoying such films. Mad Men plays racism absolutely straight, though I suppose one could argue that they are not actually being racist, but simply portraying a reality.

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Maybe you should talk to e-man. He thinks it should be no challenge at all and it's just a copout. As someone else said, I too immediately thought of BP when I saw 'Coming to America'. I wonder if they sat around agonizing over whether or not what they portrayed would be perceived as racist? Perhaps they should get the people behind that production to do a BP film.

And I too find it VERY interesting, considering the potential 'challenges' on which our current discussion is based, that they are determined to make a BP film.
Well, not to talk about him like he's not here, but I've had very similar arguments about Wonder Woman's filmabilty, and have no interest in having that argument again. The issue with BP, as with WW, is all in perception, and has nothing to do with actual challenge in actually writing or filming a script, but there is an enormous challenge in managing those perceptions. A lot of people get stuck on how there's nothing stopping someone from making an awesome successful BP film, without acknowledging how those perceptions can not only convince a writer that they are not capable of doing so, but remind them that even if they make a great BP film, a single misperception on their part or the audience's part can mar the whole thing.

What I love about Eddie Murphy is that he made movies without deference to race, even when he made a movie about an African prince. It was pretty awesome, but wasn't an option for everyone at that time. Currently, I think only Will Smith is in that position, and why that is, is an entirely different equally distasteful debate I think.

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:11 PM   #196
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The Panther's race should not be an issue in this movie, they should just approach this like they have any other property, but this just happens to be about an African Ruler rather than a Norse God, etc.

If they put the race thing in the forefront then they have already failed IMO. This was my problem with the '70's Jungle Action Panther series, and why I found the solo series that followed a refreshing change. His being African was not a big deal when he was introduced in the FF and it should not be now.

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:14 PM   #197
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I woulndt mind the climax being in NYC. Particularly the UN building
Sure, that could be cool, but it's a big world so why not take it else where - like maybe the African country it's set in?

Save the Avengers movies for his trip to the US.

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:17 PM   #198
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IMO Disney probably looks at its stable of Marvel characters and says, 'As many people as there are who would be hypervigilant about racism in a BP film (potential behavior confirmed by comments on these boards) it would be less of a hassle to just forego a BP film and focus on someone else. I mean it isn't like we have a shortage or anything.'
Actually, I perceive Disney/Marvel as putting a high value on diversity and "political correctness" (see: lack of racism/segregation during WWII in CA:TFA; also see: The Disney Channel). There have already been plenty of complaints about the whiteness (greenness notwithstanding) and maleness of The Avengers cast. This is probably why we're hearing rumors of Falcon for CA:TWS and his inclusion in the upcoming Avengers Assemble cartoon. The call for celebration also went up when the mystery 2014 movie was rumored to be Black Panther. I would say that it should be very much in Disney's/Marvel's best interest to go through the hassle/brain work/sweat/blood/tears of making a Black Panther movie work, and soon.

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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
What about other minority characters (American Indian, Chinese, Japanese, East Indian, Middle Eastern)? Are they as well- or proportionally-represented as black characters? Are there complaints about why there is a shortage of these characters or how they are written? I havent heard any charges of racism or in fact heard any complaints at all though all of these races are surely not as promimently represented as black characters. Why is that?
Well, as one Asian American who has thought about these issues a lot and has felt the glaring disparity/imbalance in ethnic representation in comics and American media in general his whole life, I would say that there are plenty of cultural, historical, and social reasons why not as many Asians have been vocal and not as many Asians who have complained have been ignored. I could get into it, and there are much more articulate people to whom I could point who do indeed complain about these things, but if you want an example of Asians taking a stand against blatant racism in media, I would point you to the outcry that emerged when white actors were cast for the main roles in M. Night Shyamalan's The Last Airbender movie, if you recall it. (Though in the end, I'm kind of thankful that talented Asian actors weren't tied to that sinking ship.) Also, Asian Americans were very much involved and vocal in the Civil Rights movement in the '60s and '70s, especially in Detroit and Chicago. You just never hear about them.

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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
And how long have you been on these boards? You obviously don't pay attention if you say white people don't complain about Spider-Man.
I think what DrCosmic meant is that while white people do complain about Spider-Man, they don't complain about white people being misrepresented in Spider-Man movies.

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
What's really interesting is that they are still determined to make a Black Panther film, despite all the challenges.
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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
I too find it VERY interesting, considering the potential 'challenges' on which our current discussion is based, that they are determined to make a BP film.
Where does it say that Marvel is determined to make a BP film? D'Esposito's quote, which was only a response to the interviewer asking directly about BP, sounds pretty pessimistic about our chances of seeing a BP film. While I did say above that Disney/Marvel's high value on diversity should motivate them to make a BP movie, have we gotten any indication that that is indeed the case?

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:22 PM   #199
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Originally Posted by bubbadoom View Post
The Panther's race should not be an issue in this movie, they should just approach this like they have any other property, but this just happens to be about an African Ruler rather than a Norse God, etc.

If they put the race thing in the forefront then they have already failed IMO. This was my problem with the '70's Jungle Action Panther series, and why I found the solo series that followed a refreshing change. His being African was not a big deal when he was introduced in the FF and it should not be now.
I completely agree with this.

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Old 07-19-2012, 02:30 PM   #200
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
Hmmmm... i suppose a lot of my examples are about the non-inclusion of black people, but certainly Dragonball Z and Naruto have thrived with Mr. Popo and Killer Bee, and everyone understands "the black guy dies," but that doesn't stop them from enjoying such films. Mad Men plays racism absolutely straight, though I suppose one could argue that they are not actually being racist, but simply portraying a reality.
I do not follow DBZ or Naruto (at least since my 18 yr old son was a kid). I don't know who Mr. Popo or Killer Bee are. Are they black characters that are painted in a poor light in a racial way? Maybe they get a pass because those are Japanese productions. Only saw Training Day of all the 'black guty dies at the end' movies so don;t know much about that either. ANd I don't watch MAd Men.


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Originally Posted by DrCosmic
Well, not to talk about him like he's not here, but I've had very similar arguments about Wonder Woman's filmabilty, and have no interest in having that argument again. The issue with BP, as with WW, is all in perception, and has nothing to do with actual challenge in actually writing or filming a script, but there is an enormous challenge in managing those perceptions. A lot of people get stuck on how there's nothing stopping someone from making an awesome successful BP film, without acknowledging how those perceptions can not only convince a writer that they are not capable of doing so, but remind them that even if they make a great BP film, a single misperception on their part or the audience's part can mar the whole thing.
And don't you think that's a shame that writer's are basically justified in feeling that way?

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic
What I love about Eddie Murphy is that he made movies without deference to race, even when he made a movie about an African prince. It was pretty awesome, but wasn't an option for everyone at that time. Currently, I think only Will Smith is in that position, and why that is, is an entirely different equally distasteful debate I think.
Eddie Murphy is a unique talent.

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