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Old 07-07-2012, 03:39 PM   #1
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Default Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

One of the big concerns that has been brought up elsewhere and at times here about a JL movie is that DC would be entering it without the build-up that Marvel had, and what little build-up that has happened and will happen has been messed up (Green Lantern) or has plenty of concerns surrounding it (Man of Steel).

But all of this kind of gets me: we're forgetting a few things:
1) Unlike every Avenger except the Hulk, the Justice League has been in the broader popular culture for years. Indeed one of the most impressive and welcome pieces of Marvel's movies is that they've elevated Iron Man, Captain America and Thor into the public eye more than they ever have been. But most of the Justice League has always been there, to a certain extent. Every single one of the big seven has had at least one live-action adaptation or appearance either on the big screen or on TV, and all of them have been in plenty of cartoons. In many cases, they've seeped into popular culture to the point where even if somebody didn't see any of those movies or TV shows, there would still be a reasonably good chance, for example, that they'd know that the Flash is really fast and that Green Lantern has a magic ring.

2) A good story should be able to show, not tell. If this is done well enough, you can set up an entire universe with little to no pre-established continuity. Take the original Star Wars. While Lucas did have some sort of backstory drawn up (although how big or small that backstory was is up for debate), it was, in essence, a completely new thing, with a pretty large cast and a vast universe, where we only learned what was needed to enjoy the story. The characters were in essence archtypes, people we'd seen before who we got an idea of after only a few minutes of screen time. Justice League can work the same way, if done right.

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Old 07-07-2012, 04:35 PM   #2
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I agree to an extent. Of course i dont personally believe there's reasons for concern when it comes to Man Of Steel. And i think maybe 5 or 6 of the original seven have been in the public eye for quite some time.

The general public only really knows Marvel's Spider-Man and Hulk (at least before the build up to avengers began). But the GA has certainly known a lot of what there is to know about Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman/Flash. They know what Aquaman can do. And maybe what Green Lantern is about.

I'm honestly thinking now that they can pull off that first Justice League movie without any buildup. I think they'll need Man Of Steel to do well first, and i dont think that's a problem. Then they can jump right into it. Superman is the original superhero & i think it's fitting that this extroardinary being is established on "earth" first. Everybody else takes notice and you make it come together.

So you're right. We're underestimating the characters and how much people know them. Marvel might have needed to get Iron Man out there with a big actor like Downey. Same with Thor, Captain America, the little cameos from Fury/Hawkeye/Widow. The general audience has or HAD no bloody clue who these people are. This time it's just not necessary.

The majority of the League have been established....through decades of film, television, animation, etc.

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Old 07-07-2012, 04:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

I think most audiences are aware of these characters....

BUT most audiences don't respect these characters or care about them (outside Batman).

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Old 07-07-2012, 04:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

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I think most audiences are aware of these characters....

BUT most audiences don't respect these characters or care about them (outside Batman).
Great. Most audiences not only didn't respect or care about the characters in "The Godfather", they weren't even aware of their existence.

That's the job for the writers.

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Old 07-07-2012, 05:01 PM   #5
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yes but the respect part doesn't matter. Maybe it does for Green Lantern right now cuz it's been so soon since last years failure. The main 4 imo are Supes/Bats/WW/Flash. And they're all extremely well known. People know what they look like & they know the essentials.

The avengers build up didn't happen so the public can have respect for these characters. Incredible Hulk perhaps. They were done for exposure. So ppl know who they were going into this team-up. Why the heck would u go see a superhero movie that's built as a dream team when spiderman isnt near it and u dont know who the hell any of them are?? Most wouldnt. It's why the build happened.

You just don't need to do it with DC.

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Old 07-07-2012, 05:08 PM   #6
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One of the big concerns that has been brought up elsewhere and at times here about a JL movie is that DC would be entering it without the build-up that Marvel had, and what little build-up that has happened and will happen has been messed up (Green Lantern) or has plenty of concerns surrounding it (Man of Steel).

But all of this kind of gets me: we're forgetting a few things:
1) Unlike every Avenger except the Hulk, the Justice League has been in the broader popular culture for years. Indeed one of the most impressive and welcome pieces of Marvel's movies is that they've elevated Iron Man, Captain America and Thor into the public eye more than they ever have been. But most of the Justice League has always been there, to a certain extent. Every single one of the big seven has had at least one live-action adaptation or appearance either on the big screen or on TV, and all of them have been in plenty of cartoons. In many cases, they've seeped into popular culture to the point where even if somebody didn't see any of those movies or TV shows, there would still be a reasonably good chance, for example, that they'd know that the Flash is really fast and that Green Lantern has a magic ring.

2) A good story should be able to show, not tell. If this is done well enough, you can set up an entire universe with little to no pre-established continuity. Take the original Star Wars. While Lucas did have some sort of backstory drawn up (although how big or small that backstory was is up for debate), it was, in essence, a completely new thing, with a pretty large cast and a vast universe, where we only learned what was needed to enjoy the story. The characters were in essence archtypes, people we'd seen before who we got an idea of after only a few minutes of screen time. Justice League can work the same way, if done right.
There isn't any excuses for a Justice League movie not to be as successful as The Avengers.

Having Superman and Batman alone in one movie will create a media sensation. With the marketing power of WB, one of most power media outlets in the world, this will be an "event film."

As far as I'm concern you just need two things: A great story and great casting.

Get one or more of the best writers for this genre in Hollywood and get a great Director, and get some great advisor(s) from DC Comics to ensure that you keep the whole thing honest. And for the love of God, PLEASE use the source material as a foundation!


There are great writers and directors out there. I for one would have no reservations about reaching out to Joss Whedon regardless of him directing the Avengers.

But I would go all out for Guillermo Del Toro.

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Old 07-07-2012, 05:15 PM   #7
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yes but the respect part doesn't matter. Maybe it does for Green Lantern right now cuz it's been so soon since last years failure. The main 4 imo are Supes/Bats/WW/Flash. And they're all extremely well known. People know what they look like & they know the essentials.

The avengers build up didn't happen so the public can have respect for these characters. Incredible Hulk perhaps. They were done for exposure. So ppl know who they were going into this team-up. Why the heck would u go see a superhero movie that's built as a dream team when spiderman isnt near it and u dont know who the hell any of them are?? Most wouldnt. It's why the build happened.

You just don't need to do it with DC.
I wholeheartedly agree. This movie will make $150 million 1st weekend even with a script as bad as Green Lantern with the Big 3 and Flash. If they can crack a fantastic story then we are talking The Avenger numbers. This whole thing is really a no brainer.

WB should be ashamed they haven't made this movie yet.

Thank God that Marvel was successful and proved that it can be done.

JL fails only if the politics and bureaucracy at WB is allowed to interfere.

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Old 07-07-2012, 11:47 PM   #8
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i agree with op

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Old 07-09-2012, 05:12 PM   #9
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maybe we're overestimating wb. they always try to "reinvent" dc heroes to a point where they aren't the heroes we knew. justice league: mortal,the motion capture movie, almost happened back in 07, but the writer's strike really helped us out there. they could try to make that movie again.

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Old 07-10-2012, 10:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

It wasn't just the writer's strike that stopped that movie. They scrapped it because it was a horrible idea.

And yes, a Justice League movie would dominate the box office. I have no doubt in my mind that it would gross more than The Avengers, and I love that movie.

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Old 07-10-2012, 05:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

Although DC's superheroes are more well-known than their Marvel counterparts, at least the Big Three, I don't think it means automatically that it will beat The Avengers or that they don't need to put any work into it, and just ride on their name recognition alone. Both Superman Returns and Green Lantern failed because imo WB took them for granted, and didn't really make sure they have the best people working on these movies, whereas Marvel put alot more care and planning into their MCU movies. If WB were handed Iron Man, Thor, and Capt. America instead of Superman and Batman, they would've wrecked those movies completely, like they did with Jonah Hex and Catwoman. JLA movie will most likely a success, but to declare them an instant success over The Avengers even before the film is greenlighted is just fanboy talk.

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Old 07-11-2012, 10:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

It's not fanboy talk, in my honest opinion. DC's Big Three (Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman) are way more iconic than Marvel's (Iron Man, Thor and Captain America). Those three have been apart of pop culture history for decades. I do concede it's too early to be proclaiming the JLA a bigger success than The Avengers but it wouldn't be difficult to imagine (considering the power that Superman and Batman hold alone).

That said, WB would still have to put a large portion of effort into the project because you're right. WB took Superman Returns and Green Lantern for granted. Surpassing The Avengers would require a great script, impressive cast and a director who can piece all together.

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Old 07-13-2012, 08:26 PM   #13
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It wasn't just the writer's strike that stopped that movie. They scrapped it because it was a horrible idea.

And yes, a Justice League movie would dominate the box office. I have no doubt in my mind that it would gross more than The Avengers, and I love that movie.
horrible ideas at wb not being made?! surely you jest.
they're known for taking a good character from the comics, taking a huge crap on them by bringing them to life in unrecognizable ways(steel, catwoman, batman returns - b&R, superman returns...). a jl movie wouldn't dominate the box office, especially if its as poorly written and poorly conceived as recent non bat-movies.

it has potential to be better.avengers wasn't that great. no real plot, but it was fun. and as much as i like the nolanverse, it's kinda ruined wb in terms of how they want the dc universe to be treated. it must be grounded in reality and must be dark. not all heroes are like batman...

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Old 07-13-2012, 08:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

If you can't recognize the characters in Steel, Batman Returns, Batman and Robin and Superman Returns as being adaptions of the comic book characters, you're either blind or didn't actually watch those movies.

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Old 07-13-2012, 08:55 PM   #15
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haha. ive never seen anyone defend those movies before. kudos. i'm just saying just because it's a horrible idea, doesn't mean they won't make it into a movie.

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Old 07-13-2012, 09:22 PM   #16
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Who says I'm defending them? The fact is that aside from Catwoman, the characters in those movies are essentially the characters on the page.

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Old 07-14-2012, 04:56 AM   #17
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yeah to say you cant recognise them is ridiculous. Despite of the quality, they are pretty much recognisable.

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Old 08-04-2012, 12:06 PM   #18
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your approach on this subject impresses me. you have some good ideas. my main concern though, is how the mainstream audience will perceive this. Basically, they are creating a big budget film and then they plan to have spin offs. Can all these characters work together in the screen without their previous establishment? I suspect it must be pretty hard to introduce all of them in one film and create a compelling story.

Superman and Batman are well established i guess, and we kinda know Green Lantern from his solo flick...but what about the rest?

My main concern is: Will we get a good movie with those characters that we love, or are we just going to watch a bunch of people in flashy tights in big CGI fights?

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Old 08-04-2012, 12:11 PM   #19
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and let's not forget...how many good movies has DC given us?

-We have the 2 Richard Donner movies of Superman
-The Dark Knight trilogy
-Watchmen

Marvel has made movies that didn't work as much, but when DC fails, it's really really bad (Steel, Superman 3, Batman and Robin, etc...)

I have to see what they've done with Man of Steel, because the Green Lantern was very disappointing...I mean, they had a fun character that's so easy to handle. He has this "spiderman" dynamic on him, he has this duty he needs to fulfill, but still he is a fun and simple guy we can all relate to...and still they screwed up!

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Old 08-04-2012, 06:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

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It's not fanboy talk, in my honest opinion. DC's Big Three (Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman) are way more iconic than Marvel's (Iron Man, Thor and Captain America). Those three have been apart of pop culture history for decades. I do concede it's too early to be proclaiming the JLA a bigger success than The Avengers but it wouldn't be difficult to imagine (considering the power that Superman and Batman hold alone).

That said, WB would still have to put a large portion of effort into the project because you're right. WB took Superman Returns and Green Lantern for granted. Surpassing The Avengers would require a great script, impressive cast and a director who can piece all together.
I think you underestimate Captain America's place in pop culture prior to his film. He was Timely's biggest character in the 40s, and was able to stake out a big spot in pop culture prior to the creation of the mainstream Marvel Universe.

There have always been Captain America Pajamas, Captain America T-Shirts, a Captain America & The Avengers (note how the emphasis was on him) arcade game that was highly popular, a serial, two tv movies, and a straight to TV flick, at least one animated appearance in each decade since the 1960s.

Iron Man wasn't an entire unknown either; He had an animated series, his own action figure line, his own video game, and many appearances in crossover promotional material (which is really all that anyone here has used for justification when calling The Flash and Wonder Woman "Universally known.")

Superman will always be the #1 superhero in my eyes, but I don't know that he's exactly been kept relevant either. Still more popular than Captain America or Thor, but much like The Incredible Hulk in 2008, Man of Steel is facing the stigma of following up a disappointing last movie, and hasn't been positioned as anything other than an ensemble character in crossover media for the past several years.

Justice League's single advantage over the Avengers right now is Batman, easily the most marketable superhero of all time. Even that's a wild card though. Just like Spider-Man before him, shoving a new Batman down the public's throat just a few years after a well-received multi-billion dollar trilogy might result in a lukewarm reception.

Due to DC's lack of "tending" the garden so to speak, Wonder Woman has been reduced to basically a Halloween costume, and a supporting character to Superman and Batman in the eyes of the general public. Her animated series and toy line in the 90s was canned before it hit production, and her live action TV pilot wasn't picked up. Her role as the pre-eminent female action heroine has been usurped several times. I'd say it's hard to argue that Wonder Woman has the cache of say Katniss Everdeen or even Laura Croft (who's also fallen to the wayside.)


I feel like many people know who Wonder Woman, Flash, and Aquaman are, but very few people know anything about them beyond that and little tidbits (Invisible Plane, talks to fish, crap like that.) I feel like a JLA movie would resonate more out of the gate if these characters were somewhat fleshed out for the general audience, and not just a bunch of people in familiar costumes.

If DC wants "Avengers money" they're going to have to put in Avengers effort, and that doesn't mean just rolling out a JLA film with no build up and expecting people to go crazy for it....don't get me wrong it'd be a hit that way (At least $1 B), but why not do it the right way and make $2 Billion off of it? Why not put in the extra effort to curb stomp Avengers?

I'm not saying Justice League CAN'T be bigger than Avengers. I think it definitely can, I just don't think it has an automatic "free pass" to becoming the 3rd highest grossing film of all time. Marvel right now is the average kid who busted his ass in school and got great grades, while DC's film division is the gifted kid who sits his ass on the couch eating potato chips and squandering his potential.

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:18 PM   #21
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I think you underestimate Captain America's place in pop culture prior to his film. He was Timely's biggest character in the 40s, and was able to stake out a big spot in pop culture prior to the creation of the mainstream Marvel Universe.
Compared to Superman, Captain America was nowhere near as iconic as the Kryptonian. Steve Rogers' popularity never caught on outside the United States (for obvious reasons). Kal-El, although sporting the flag in iconic poses and kicking Nazi and Commie ass in 40s, 70s and 80s, still managed to be a very popular superhero overseas.

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There have always been Captain America Pajamas, Captain America T-Shirts, a Captain America & The Avengers (note how the emphasis was on him) arcade game that was highly popular, a serial, two tv movies, and a straight to TV flick, at least one animated appearance in each decade since the 1960s.
I'm not stating Captain America possesses no popularity. He definitely had his moments in the sun [domestically] on numerous occasions. Yet, if you were to go to a third world country and flash symbols, Superman's insigna would easily be identified.

That's the argument I'm making.

Quote:
Iron Man wasn't an entire unknown either; He had an animated series, his own action figure line, his own video game, and many appearances in crossover promotional material (which is really all that anyone here has used for justification when calling The Flash and Wonder Woman "Universally known.")
Even with those mid-sized accomplishments from Iron Man, Wonder Woman still demolished and trumped him in the pop-culture department as a symbol for females during World War II and the Feminist Movement. Iron Man unarguably garnered more attention from the males than Wonder Woman did (due to gender -- sad, but true) but Iron Man was never on poster boards, buttons, banners and shirts during the riots, protests and factory shifts.

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Superman will always be the #1 superhero in my eyes, but I don't know that he's exactly been kept relevant either. Still more popular than Captain America or Thor, but much like The Incredible Hulk in 2008, Man of Steel is facing the stigma of following up a disappointing last movie, and hasn't been positioned as anything other than an ensemble character in crossover media for the past several years.
I wouldn't call Superman irrelevant. He's just stuck in the identical position where Batman suffered in for nearly a decade -- thanks to Superman Returns. That isn't to say Returns was a mediocre film (it was a good, yet forgettable CBM) but Singer created a movie which belonged in the 80s. To me, Singer's Superman Returns was nothing more than a love letter to Donner and his universe.

Man of Steel already appears to be a 'modern' take on the character that will likely satisfy the audiences' taste for an edgier hero -- from tone and personality to suit and transformation (rumored). So, Snyder's, The Nolan's and Goyer's interpretation and treatment of Superman [much like Batman before him] could revive massive interest in the character again, and lead him to a new 'golden' era (if done and executed well).

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Justice League's single advantage over the Avengers right now is Batman, easily the most marketable superhero of all time. Even that's a wild card though. Just like Spider-Man before him, shoving a new Batman down the public's throat just a few years after a well-received multi-billion dollar trilogy might result in a lukewarm reception.
Oh yeah, I agree. There's rumors circulating that a Batman reboot/relaunch might be ready to go in under three years, and to me, that profusely sounds like a deleterious idea. Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy is presently wrapping up after eight years of acclaim, praise and accolades.

Three years is not enough time to let the new franchise breathe. This has bad idea written all over it, to be honest, but WB needs a cash cow. As a result, I fear the new franchise may undergo a corresponding route that TASM endured (subjected to backlash and mixed reactions from both fans and the general audience).

Quote:
Due to DC's lack of "tending" the garden so to speak, Wonder Woman has been reduced to basically a Halloween costume, and a supporting character to Superman and Batman in the eyes of the general public. Her animated series and toy line in the 90s was canned before it hit production, and her live action TV pilot wasn't picked up. Her role as the pre-eminent female action heroine has been usurped several times. I'd say it's hard to argue that Wonder Woman has the cache of say Katniss Everdeen or even Laura Croft (who's also fallen to the wayside.)
At this endeavor, I concede with that comparison. Wonder Woman, as of late, has fallen from what diminutive grace she occupied to being a second-rate female hero. Catwoman (an anti-hero) is currently the most popular feminine figure from the comics (amongst the younger demographic).

Quote:
I feel like many people know who Wonder Woman, Flash, and Aquaman are, but very few people know anything about them beyond that and little tidbits (Invisible Plane, talks to fish, crap like that.) I feel like a JLA movie would resonate more out of the gate if these characters were somewhat fleshed out for the general audience, and not just a bunch of people in familiar costumes.
That's the advantage the writers and director have when coming to the adaptation, since so little is known about Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and Aquaman as characters. Similar to Bane in TDKR, liberties could be taken (for better or worse), and it paid off.

Quote:
If DC wants "Avengers money" they're going to have to put in Avengers effort, and that doesn't mean just rolling out a JLA film with no build up and expecting people to go crazy for it....don't get me wrong it'd be a hit that way (At least $1 B), but why not do it the right way and make $2 Billion off of it? Why not put in the extra effort to curb stomp Avengers?

I'm not saying Justice League CAN'T be bigger than Avengers. I think it definitely can, I just don't think it has an automatic "free pass" to becoming the 3rd highest grossing film of all time. Marvel right now is the average kid who busted his ass in school and got great grades, while DC's film division is the gifted kid who sits his ass on the couch eating potato chips and squandering his potential.
I have confidence, believe it or not, that a JL film can be a smashing success without a build up. After 2013, both Batman and Superman ought to be set, and in reality, that's all WB needs for a JL movie. If properly marketed, the concept of Batman and Superman sharing the screen together for the first time will singlehandedly rake in a billion. The rest of team can be established around Superman and Batman. If the film is a success, then WB will branch out (spin-offs to Wonder Woman and Flash could be done to develop the characters further).

You're right. WB, right now, has accomplished very little in the CBM genre -- of recent times. They struck oil with Chris Nolan but struggled, for the most part, with other titles/characters. Hopefully, WB has seen the light and will push forward in investing and conceiving high quality comic book movies.

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Old 08-05-2012, 03:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex View Post
I have confidence, believe it or not, that a JL film can be a smashing success without a build up. After 2013, both Batman and Superman ought to be set, and in reality, that's all WB needs for a JL movie. If properly marketed, the concept of Batman and Superman sharing the screen together for the first time will singlehandedly rake in a billion. The rest of team can be established around Superman and Batman. If the film is a success, then WB will branch out (spin-offs to Wonder Woman and Flash could be done to develop the characters further).

You're right. WB, right now, has accomplished very little in the CBM genre -- of recent times. They struck oil with Chris Nolan but struggled, for the most part, with other titles/characters. Hopefully, WB has seen the light and will push forward in investing and conceiving high quality comic book movies.
I agree man, a JL film would pull in loads of cash just from Superman and Batman alone. This movie really is a goldmine that has the potential to make even more than The Avengers did. How people still doubt the BO potential is beyond me.

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Old 08-05-2012, 04:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

If you can't get Green Lantern right, I don't have much confidence that you will get him right in a big crossover with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and the Flash.

Not only do you have to make them all work in live action, you also have to make them interacting work.

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Old 08-05-2012, 04:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

With a different writer and crew, getting GL right shouldn't be a problem.

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Old 08-20-2012, 03:50 PM   #25
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Default Re: Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
I think most audiences are aware of these characters....

BUT most audiences don't respect these characters or care about them (outside Batman).
Ditto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
Although DC's superheroes are more well-known than their Marvel counterparts, at least the Big Three, I don't think it means automatically that it will beat The Avengers or that they don't need to put any work into it, and just ride on their name recognition alone. Both Superman Returns and Green Lantern failed because imo WB took them for granted, and didn't really make sure they have the best people working on these movies, whereas Marvel put alot more care and planning into their MCU movies. If WB were handed Iron Man, Thor, and Capt. America instead of Superman and Batman, they would've wrecked those movies completely, like they did with Jonah Hex and Catwoman. JLA movie will most likely a success, but to declare them an instant success over The Avengers even before the film is greenlighted is just fanboy talk.
Ditto. For a JL movie to make Avengers money it would have to be absolutely perfect & they DO need a good build up. DC & maybe a lot of their fans seem to think being well known is a license to print money. I remember when Marvel had one of those Ultimate Alliance games coming out & DC had DC Superheroes coming out around the same time. Somebody from some videogame show was interviewing a guy who worked on the DC game & he asked him how he thought the game would stack up to Marvel's. He answered something like "Everybody on the planet knows Superman."

Marvels game sold waaaaay more and got better reviews

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