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Old 08-17-2012, 10:17 PM   #326
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

He showed hints of his genius and detective skills especially in TDK but I think it wasn't showcased enough in the trilogy to erase debates like this.

It doesn't help too that in the interviews with Nolan and Morgan Freeman, they always say that Fox is the "brains of Bruce Wayne".

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Old 08-17-2012, 10:23 PM   #327
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

Yeah his detective stuff was mainly shown in TDK some examples being -
- Scanning radioactive bills
- Watching Harvey Dent
- The bullet/fingerprint stuff
- Developing Fox's sonar to find The Joker

but that is pretty much it. I don't think there is one detective moment in TDKR other than when he identifies Selina.

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Last edited by Deserana; 08-17-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:26 PM   #328
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

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but that is pretty much it. I don't think there is one detective moment in TDKR.
Identifying Selina Kyle.

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Old 08-17-2012, 10:28 PM   #329
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

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Identifying Selina Kyle.
Remembered that as soon as I posted it

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Psychic though? That sounds like something out of science-fiction.

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Old 08-17-2012, 10:52 PM   #330
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

I think some of you think "smart" equals "genius", which just isn't the case. Batman is shown able to use technology to obtain information in this franchise. Doesn't require genius level intellect, so its not shown. He seems like a smart guy...except when it comes to relationships.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:00 PM   #331
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

One thing I always wanted to see was Bruce in a disguise (not ski masks or Batman, think Sherlock Holmes). Sadly we didn't get that once.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:05 PM   #332
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

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One thing I always wanted to see was Bruce in a disguise (not ski masks or Batman, think Sherlock Holmes). Sadly we didn't get that once.
I've always wanted to see Matches Malone in this series.

The closest we got to a disguise is in BB when Bruce was wearing that orange hoodie. But that's more of just hiding his identity rather a disguise so I just contradicted myself.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:05 PM   #333
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

I want Matches Malone in the next film, dangit. Not that I am criticizing Nolan's work -- I have no complaints--but want a different iteration of Bruce.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:07 PM   #334
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

Bruce patched the Bat autopilot software, so yeah he's at least above average smartness.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:17 PM   #335
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

Well, I might be in the minority here, but I would call Nolan/Bale's Batman a genius.

Bruce Wayne having the creativity to assemble preexisting but unrelated ideas, motivations, materials, training, information, finances, resources, etc. and focus them into a functioning and ultimately effective mission is one big, bold and powerful display of genius.

Especially in Nolan's more plausible world.

If Bale's Wayne existed in reality, I would definitely regard him as a genius.


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Old 08-17-2012, 11:37 PM   #336
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

Yeah, Nolan simplified Batman. I wouldn't say he's average though. As for the comics, look up any bio on the character. Although Batman is my favorite comic book character, he's kind of turned into Batgod as the decades have passed. He's a master of most things. Nolan was trying to take a more realistic approach on the mythos, including the main character.

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Old 08-18-2012, 12:37 AM   #337
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

He IS a genius.

He attends Princeton University.
He uses what he finds in Applied Sciences to create a one of a kind Batman suit.
He created the "government telecommunications project" in The Dark Knight without the aid of Fox.
He's still always one step ahead. (Fox: You already knew... Wayne: I just needed a closer look at their books).

And there are several other things Wayne does that shows that he is of well above average intelligence.

-R

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Old 08-18-2012, 02:10 AM   #338
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Surely it depends on your interpretation on the word "genius" for starters, based purely on IQ rating he would be up there surely. He takes a lot of advice from Alfred and Fox but thats a sign of intelligence as he is willing to listen to those with other knowledge/experience.

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Old 08-18-2012, 08:14 AM   #339
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

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He IS a genius.

He attends Princeton University.
He uses what he finds in Applied Sciences to create a one of a kind Batman suit.
He created the "government telecommunications project" in The Dark Knight without the aid of Fox.
He's still always one step ahead. (Fox: You already knew... Wayne: I just needed a closer look at their books).

And there are several other things Wayne does that shows that he is of well above average intelligence.

-R
I also like it how Bruce remember and acts upon things in the movies (fixing the autopilot, Alfred's cafe dream, etc) when it seems like he doesn't care.

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Old 08-18-2012, 10:28 AM   #340
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Genius or not , we are shown he's very resourceful and adaptable. Thats Batman.

I think people are starting to confuse detective work with csi montages...

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Old 08-18-2012, 12:25 PM   #341
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I'm fine with Batman just being a really smart, perceptive guy. I don't think he really needs to be Mensa certified in order to be a valid characterization. Leave that to Peter Parker. I always imagined Bruce as more of just a really quick learner and someone who's very willing to put in the time to study something inside and out, whatever it is. In my mind he's the kind of guy where if you underestimate his intelligence, you're going to lose.

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Old 08-18-2012, 04:30 PM   #342
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Anyone else LOVE how calm and unflappable Batman is during his first comeback? The way he's surrounded by dozens of cop cars, and he just stands there for a while, slowly walks to the batpod taking his sweet time, and calmly shoots the truck to make a path for himself. Not afraid or nervous at ALL. That was just badass Batman right there.

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Old 08-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #343
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

He's just moving slowly because his knee hurts.

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Old 08-18-2012, 05:14 PM   #344
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Default Re: Do you LIKE or DISLIKE the fact that Nolan's Batman isn't a genius?

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Originally Posted by Deserana View Post
Yeah his detective stuff was mainly shown in TDK some examples being -
- Scanning radioactive bills
- Watching Harvey Dent
- The bullet/fingerprint stuff
- Developing Fox's sonar to find The Joker

but that is pretty much it. I don't think there is one detective moment in TDKR other than when he identifies Selina.
Detective work in BEGINS seperating the few police and politicians he could trust from the rest.

Going undercover spying on Rachel.

In TDK investigating and in a line of dialogue insinuating he knows and can identitfy virtually the entire GPD roster.

"Brian ... Richards, and some patrol man I don't know"

Researching and finding the caliber bullet used in order to replicate and scan finger print.

In RISES finding out the "Cat" burglar's identity, and knowning extensive ways of getting finger print pulls.

All of that is detective work.

I don't know what people expect to see when they refer to this aspect of Batman's arsenal.

Do they merely think detective work is Batman with a beaker and flass testing chemical compounds for an hour and a half to be labeled as detective work?

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Old 08-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #345
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Originally Posted by hafizbat View Post
Anyone else LOVE how calm and unflappable Batman is during his first comeback? The way he's surrounded by dozens of cop cars, and he just stands there for a while, slowly walks to the batpod taking his sweet time, and calmly shoots the truck to make a path for himself. Not afraid or nervous at ALL. That was just badass Batman right there.
That was such a great moment, especially when I first saw it in IMAX.

But yeah, Nolan showcased a lot of Bruce's intellect in his trilogy. TDK and BB have the most, but TDKR had a nice chunk, mostly revolving around Selina, her identity and tracking her with the pearls. Icing on the cake was definitely the auto-pilot. That was slick as hell.

For the people who say Nolan didn't capture the detective aspect of Batman in his films, I swear they wanted Nolan to beat us over the head with it. And to be fair, all of the other Batmen on film have been competent crime fighters. But IMO, Nolan showcased it the best throughout his three movies. Especially in TDK, but that was a given because it was the classic crime drama epic. It's more understated, but if you are paying attention you cannot miss it.

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Old 08-18-2012, 06:27 PM   #346
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I like Nolan's interpretation of Bruce Wayne, but the only thing I didn't like about his characterization was that he always quit. I mean for me Batman is the hero who will never quit, its an ongoing mission for him. I understand Nolan doing it but at the same time its a taste thing 2bh

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Old 08-18-2012, 06:34 PM   #347
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

he's just really dumb when it comes to trusting people... like tremendously stupid, and of course liking that dumb moron of a character Rachel who had absolutely nothing redeemable in her... she was just as bad as Singer's version of Lois... what the hell is there to like in two loser women like those...

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Old 08-18-2012, 06:36 PM   #348
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

...Rachel was the last connection to a better time in his life. Since he never took the time to move on, it makes sense that Bruce was fixated on her.

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Old 08-19-2012, 09:22 PM   #349
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Couldn't find the Bale/Batman thread, so I'll post it here: I gotta say, Nolan and co. achieved their goal throughout the entire trilogy in making me/us care ALOT for Bruce Wayne when not in costume, compared to the films before the trilogy where we were just biting time till he got the costume. Heck, when I see Batman, in costume, I would go as far as to refer to him as Bruce and not his dual identity. More congrats to Nolan.

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Old 08-21-2012, 11:16 PM   #350
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Long but good read.

http://whatculture.com/film/the-dark...christian-bale

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The Dark Knight Rises: An Appreciation of Christian Bale

It’s been a month since The Dark Knight Rises was released to nearly universal acclaim and record-breaking box office returns. Even critics and fans alike who had problems with the movie’s length and perceived plot holes admit the sheer spectacle of it all on the screen is something that calls back to the days of epic filmmaking by the likes of DeMille, Lean, and Ford which is high praise indeed for a film about a billionaire orphan in a tricked-out Nomex survival suit trying hard to get rid of a bomb.

Such spectacle would be reduced to sound and fury signifying nothing or a Michael Bay Transformers movie if it wasn’t for strong acting performances not just in RISES but across the preceding movies of the trilogy, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Performances like Sir Michael Caine as the long-suffering butler, Alfred, Morgan Freeman’s smoothly droll Lucius Fox, and, of course, the Agent of Chaos, the Joker, as interpreted by the still-missed Heath Ledger to name just a few.

Those same performances would have been good without a strong lead in Christian Bale’s portrayal of Bruce Wayne/Batman but because Bale was more than up for that task those performances as well as his own are indelible in film history. Bale’s ability to play three versions of the same character as a fearsome masked vigilante, a self-absorbed playboy, and an all too fallible mortal trying to save his city is often overlooked because of its subtlety but it would be a mistake to do that because Bale was just as important as director Christopher Nolan when it came to helping the Dark Knight truly rise on the silver screen.


The Hero

Being the lead in a superhero movie is a largely thankless task because if an actor is not overshadowed by the comic book villains he goes up against onscreen then he has to make an asinine script read like Chekhov. For every Robert Downey Jr. as Tony (Iron Man) Stark there’s Ben Affleck as Daredevil and Brandon Routh as Superman. It’s even tougher to play Batman in a live-action movie because a deviation one way and its back to the idiotic stories of the post-Seduction of the Innocent caped crusader or the other and you get the misogynistic brute of Frank Miller’s All-Star Batman and Robin. That says nothing about being upstaged by Batman’s rogue’s gallery which is almost as well-known as the hero himself and cheered for just as much sometimes. Christian Bale solved that conundrum because the rage and menace he exhibited while slinking through the shadows wearing the cape and cowl was truly sinister.

Bale translated perfectly to the screen why criminals have feared Batman for over seventy years in the comic books not just with the costume but also the way fire flashed from his eyes and the controversial growl he created to give voice to his Dark Knight. The actor has said in interviews that he understood Batman as being in a perpetual state of rage so merely speaking his voice in a raspy whisper wasn’t going to do it. Viewers can see that deep anger on display in the SWEAR TO ME clip in Begins and the interrogation scene in TDK. We know Batman isn’t going to kill Detective Flass or the Joker but what we don’t know is how far Bale’s Batman will take it which was something never seen on film before not counting the mad bomber Batman of Michael Keaton.

That uncertain certainty combined with the threatening aura he exuded made his Batman just as much a chaotic force as the Joker which brings us to the purple and green elephant in the middle of the room, Heath Ledger’s scene stealing in TDK. This may sound snobbish but people who merely watch movies think Ledger’s Joker blew Bale’s Batman off the screen the whole film but those who truly watch a movie know both actors were evenly matched. Any actor worth his salt can play manic (see most Nicolas Cage movies) but an actor who can convincingly hold his own while his co-stars swing for the fences truly knows his craft. atman is the straight man in the macabre comedy act he plays out with the Joker so on-screen an actor has to keep the audience just as invested in the hero while the villain gets the great lines. Or to use a music metaphor, Batman is the thumping bass line under the theatrics of the Joker’s electric guitar because you’re not going to get the best out of one without the other most times.

Bale was able to take a role in Batman that during the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher days was just there to be a cipher to be outshined by Jack Nicholson’s Joker, Michelle Pfieffer’s Catwoman, and Jim Carrey’s Riddler among others. It worked in those four movies because they were exercises in style over substance so no heavy lifting was needed for the men behind the masks even though Michael Keaton’s performance in costume still holds up very well over twenty years later. Christopher Nolan and his series co-writers, Jonathan Nolan and David S. Goyer, reversed that formula by giving Bale a script where the substance was paramount and Bale created a Batman who truly was the lead in his own movie in name as well as deed.


The Playboy

Bruce Wayne comes from old money that works for him, as long as cat burglars don’t steal his fingerprints, so he parties like the careless trust fund baby that he is. That’s at least what he wants Gotham City and the world to think so he has the cover he needs to pancake cop cars on the evening news. The Dark Knight Trilogy is the only set of movies to integrate the playboy persona of Bruce Wayne into the story. This is a ruse going back to characters like the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, and the Shadow where the stalwart hero conceals his courageous nature under the guise of a feckless layabout to take suspicion away from him while he’s out righting wrongs. It was very common in the pulps and still used in comics today but not so much in movies where the heroes are the same in costume as they are out of it for the most part.

Christian Bale has the looks and charm to pull off the playboy guise as proven in his breakout role as Patrick Bateman in American Psycho as a well-dressed serial killer equally at home with a martini in his hand as a chainsaw. He likely called on that previous role for the public face of a Bruce Wayne who played in pools with European models in his tailored suits and spirited away a Russian ballet company for a cruise on his private yacht all in service to his role as Batman which was so good the Rachel Dawes character seemed to even think it wasn’t such an act even after she found out he was the vigilante. Theatricality and deception truly are powerful agents.

Previous Bat-actors like Val Kilmer and George Clooney had the looks (Kilmer) and the charm (Clooney) it took to be plausible as Playboy Wayne but they weren’t required to make that little shift in posture or cast of the eyes like Bale did which signified he had put aside the guise and gone into hero mode. The change is noticeable in the second movie when the Joker crashes the Harvey Dent fundraiser and he springs into cold, competent action by taking out a Joker henchman without breaking stride while going to get his true power suit. It’s a minute change but not insignificant because it works as a silent nod to the audience that Bale has put the public face aside. That’s where the skill comes in because a true thesp can show just as easily as tell.

Christian Bale in The Dark Knight Trilogy was able to successfully bring to the screen the playboy persona of Bruce Wayne as a distinct facet of the whole character. He wasn’t the absent-minded goofball of Keaton in Batman ’89 or the smirking clown of Clooney in Batman & Robin but the perfect fop needed to deflect suspicion from the real man behind Batman’s mask and the playboy’s wine glass.


The Man

A constant criticism of the latest Batman movie has been the supposed lack of Batman in the movie but not many of those same reviews bring up the fact that Bruce Wayne is the main character of the story. TDKR is about the fallible man who has lost not just the woman he loved in the last film but also a real reason to move on with his life. As Alfred reminds him, he’s not living; he’s just waiting for something bad to happen again. When the misfortune comes though he does spring back into action as Batman again but it’s different. He wears the cowl and the armor again after eight years of movie time but he’s not the Dark Knight anymore rather just a man going through the motions. Was it any wonder Bane defeated him so easily in the Gotham sewers?

Bruce Wayne, the man, went through a most interesting arc in the just concluded trilogy. Growing from the scarred young boy who watched his parents murdered in front of him to an angry young man who blamed himself for their deaths. An anger that drove him to accept Ducard’s offer of training with the League of Shadows in Begins to focus that emotion before it consumed him from the inside to coming back to his home of Gotham City to do the work needed to become an incorruptible symbol to remind the people of his city that a hero can be anyone trying to do the right thing.

Just as the Playboy persona of Bruce Wayne had never been truly explored on the screen, a mortal Bruce Wayne who made mistakes and lost his way wasn’t either. Bale showed how lost Wayne was when he took a gun to kill Joe Chill, his parents’ murderer, at his parole hearing and how he underestimated the depths of the Joker’s madness for much of The Dark Knight by believing the Clown was just a run of the mill criminal to easily figure out and defeat.

Bale’s Wayne was still able to move past his mistakes by tossing the gun he planned to kill Chill with and coming back from a serious injury to not just defeat Bane but save his city in the latest film. With apologies to Rachel Dawes, she was wrong because Bruce Wayne, not the bat-eared cowl or the playboy persona, was the character’s true face. Like any human, he made errors but like the best of us Bale portrayed a Bruce Wayne who learned from his mistakes and grew as a result of them.

Christopher Nolan and company were able to create a series of movies that read like a dense tome chronicling the life of Bruce Wayne more than the adventures of Batman. An actor with chops like Bale was the perfect choice to show the beginning, the fall, and the rise of not just the Bat but the man in the costume. The heart to hearts Wayne had with his surrogate father, Alfred, or the witty back and forths he would have with his very own Q, Lucius Fox. Those interactions combined the palpable sense of loss over Rachel and the weight of living with the lie he and Commissioner Gordon created to keep the truth of Harvey Dent’s murderous fall from grace hidden from the public made for an arc worthy of any actor’s skills.

An arc that reached a satisfying end when the real Bruce Wayne became whole again after learning how to pick himself up after he fell. He didn’t just rise out of Bane and Talia’s pit; he rose from the same pit he had lived in since his parents’ death. Rising from that pain allowed him to leave all the masks behind to pass his mantle to a worthy successor while cementing the incorruptibility of his symbol.

Christian Bale being cast in the dual role of Batman/Bruce Wayne wasn’t that much of a stretch because he had the look for the character in and out of costume. The revelation however was his ability to interpret the character as something fresh for the masses of moviegoers burnt by fatuous portrayals of not just Batman but superheroes on film in other movies. The fact he was able to not just hold his own on-screen opposite Oscar-winning actors but let his character grow for each chapter was nothing short of amazing. Batman is going to be linked with Christian Bale the same way Wolverine is linked with Hugh Jackman and Superman is linked with Christopher Reeve but as evidenced by his award winning turn in 2010’s The Fighter, Bale is going to be known for more than the Caped Crusader for the rest of his career. Warner Bros. and Nolan lucked out getting an actor of Bale’s caliber to act in not just one but three comic book movies and Warners will have to hope for lightning to strike again when the Dark Knight rises on the screen once more

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