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Old 09-24-2012, 02:48 PM   #451
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Is that from the garage scene with the copycats in TDK? I see Cillian Murphy there.

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Old 09-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #452
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Is that from the garage scene with the copycats in TDK? I see Cillian Murphy there.
It looks like it, but it also looks like Bale is in the TDK-suit, which he never was in the garage scene....but it does look like the garage scene.

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Old 09-24-2012, 06:47 PM   #453
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Strange that he's wearing the TDK suit in those pictures.

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Old 09-24-2012, 07:17 PM   #454
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

It's a shame the panda eyes were canned in plot form in the films. They'd actually be a cool idea, but they magically vanish every time he's without the cowl afaik.

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Old 09-25-2012, 04:01 AM   #455
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

What are you guys seeing? It's definately the Begins suit in those pics. The back's the same and the shoulders look nothing like the TDK/TDKR versions.

EDIT: Here you go. I was trying to find a clear cap of Bruce in the not-yet-Batman-ready suit walking toward the waterfall from Begins, as that's what I remember clearest, but these will have to do. They're actually much closer in appearance than I remember, looking at them side by side. But still, definately the Begins suit.





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Old 09-25-2012, 04:09 AM   #456
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

It's the very back of the suit that is probably misleading us.

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Old 09-25-2012, 10:45 AM   #457
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

He had BB suit in garage scene in TDK.

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Old 09-25-2012, 11:02 AM   #458
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Where did you find those pics kvz5?
Tumblr but I think it originated from a Bale fansite. I actually thought it was photoshopped at first.

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Old 10-03-2012, 04:37 AM   #459
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

A theater an hour away is still showing TDKR in IMAX, so I trudged all the way over there to watch it again.

Anyways, it occurred to me that the biggest reason Nolan's films could be thought of as realistic is because they approach the superhero as a real human being. What does it take to become Batman? Not just financially and training-wise, but the emotional and physical toll as well. It's really really hard! Akin to being a combat veteran.

And the reason why the ending of TDKR is so cathartic to many, is because Bruce is finally discharged from his mission. He's like a soldier returning from war and given a chance at a normal life.

IMO, those who believe that Bruce should have stayed at his mission forever kind of missed the point of Nolan's Batman. Nolan's Wayne is treated like a real person. He cannot sustain the mission forever. I know of someone who dated a Navy SEAL - she claimed he was rather messed up in the head. They kind of HAVE to be, to do what they do. Not everyone is cut out for that kind of lifestyle, and as the stats of our returning combat veterans prove, many of them come back pretty messed up still. You simply can't ask a person to be a hero forever. Even the most heroic of us, the ones who've been award the Medal of Honor, they've had to endure some downright horrifying stuff to prove the heroism within themselves. That's too much of a burden to bear your entire life, at least realistically. And Nolan's Batman series has taken pretty serious pains to examine just what Bruce is suffering during his mission, as if he were a real man. It only makes sense that he gets the chance to leave the mission in the end.

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Old 10-03-2012, 05:08 AM   #460
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

That's what I love about Bruce in this interpretation. The trilogy never loses sight of the fact that he is a real human being.

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Old 10-03-2012, 07:42 AM   #461
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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A theater an hour away is still showing TDKR in IMAX, so I trudged all the way over there to watch it again.

Anyways, it occurred to me that the biggest reason Nolan's films could be thought of as realistic is because they approach the superhero as a real human being. What does it take to become Batman? Not just financially and training-wise, but the emotional and physical toll as well. It's really really hard! Akin to being a combat veteran.

And the reason why the ending of TDKR is so cathartic to many, is because Bruce is finally discharged from his mission. He's like a soldier returning from war and given a chance at a normal life.

IMO, those who believe that Bruce should have stayed at his mission forever kind of missed the point of Nolan's Batman. Nolan's Wayne is treated like a real person. He cannot sustain the mission forever. I know of someone who dated a Navy SEAL - she claimed he was rather messed up in the head. They kind of HAVE to be, to do what they do. Not everyone is cut out for that kind of lifestyle, and as the stats of our returning combat veterans prove, many of them come back pretty messed up still. You simply can't ask a person to be a hero forever. Even the most heroic of us, the ones who've been award the Medal of Honor, they've had to endure some downright horrifying stuff to prove the heroism within themselves. That's too much of a burden to bear your entire life, at least realistically. And Nolan's Batman series has taken pretty serious pains to examine just what Bruce is suffering during his mission, as if he were a real man. It only makes sense that he gets the chance to leave the mission in the end.
I actually like the fact that Bruce retires at the end of TDKR. But I'll never like the 8 year exile. The movie missed a great opportunity by not showing how being Batman for a number of years would affect a real person, can you imagine if Bruce had actually become lost in the Batman persona as opposed to just becoming a recluse? I really don't like the fact that this Bruce spends a little more than a year of his life being Batman, it just doesn't bode well with me

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:13 PM   #462
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

View it like this: Gotham City didn't need Batman at that time. Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. The sacrifice that Batman did at the end of TDK needed to be rewarded, to have a meaning things had to get better. But Bruce was frozen in time, he couldn't keep going because his only hope for a normal life was gone (Rachel), and the Batman wasn't needed.

I don't think it was immediate though, he did have energy project and had the Wayne Foundation taking care of the orphans. So he tried to do good things as Bruce Wayne at first, but when the energy project was deemed to dangerous, it was a failure that added to his pain.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:20 PM   #463
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I have some issues with the ending (specifically with the implication that Gotham will continuously need a masked hero) but I was (surprisingly) fine with Bruce surviving and having a happy ending. He deserves that ending IMO.

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So he tried to do good things as Bruce Wayne at first, but when the energy project was deemed to dangerous, it was a failure that added to his pain.
Yup.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:38 PM   #464
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I don't think people are missing any point, I just think some people don't like the kind of style Nolan went for with Batman. To me, it's a very subpar version of the character. I mean, this isn't a nonfictional movie here. Who cares what would happen in real life? And I'm not saying you can't show the pain of being Batman, but at least try to give us an accurate version of the character.

He retires for eight years, then puts the cape back on for one last "hurrah", and then retires again? I think they missed a very vital element to the character of Batman. I loved how they treated him in BB, but then TDK was kinda screwy for me, cause I didn't like how Bruce kept trying to retire with Rachel, although, by the end of TDK, I thought he was going to continue to be Batman. Then TDKR comes out, and it made his character that much worse. This whole "it's a more realistic version of Batman/Batman wouldn't be able to last in the real world" is just a cop out excuse, because a Batman wouldn't be able to survive more than a week in the real world. It all relies on how the character is written, and to me, it's not a proper adaptation of the character. It's so weird how sooo much emphasis is placed on Batman's "no guns" rule, but then the part about Bruce making a promise to his parents and having to fight the same criminals that put his parents in the grave, is fallen by the wayside.

I blame everything on Rachel Dawes.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:45 PM   #465
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Rachel was such a bland, ****** character.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:47 PM   #466
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Honestly, seeing Bruce with Selina at the end was probably one of the most cathartic moments I've experienced in a movie theater. Just the bluntness of it. I was really dreading them cutting away from the scene after showing Alfred's reaction, but nope. The whole theater just erupted at that moment. It was a complete validation of what they tried to do with Bruce Wayne in this trilogy: as Anita said, make him a real human being that you can truly care about and not only cheer for because he's badass.

I really think this movie just as easily could have been called "Bruce Wayne Rises", but it just doesn't have the same ring to it from a ticket-selling standpoint

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:51 PM   #467
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Oh god. If they cut to just Alfred's reaction, imagine all the "it was just a dream!!!" reactions. I mean, some are still saying that even if Nolan showed that Bruce was alive (and dropped several hints to his survival even before that).

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:06 PM   #468
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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I actually like the fact that Bruce retires at the end of TDKR. But I'll never like the 8 year exile. The movie missed a great opportunity by not showing how being Batman for a number of years would affect a real person, can you imagine if Bruce had actually become lost in the Batman persona as opposed to just becoming a recluse? I really don't like the fact that this Bruce spends a little more than a year of his life being Batman, it just doesn't bode well with me
Seconded

I love that he ended up with Selina because if he was to end up with any of the love interests he's had I think she would be the one considering there have been Batman comics where they were married and even had a child together. But the 8 year retirement after such a short career as Batman was a poor creative decision.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:24 PM   #469
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

It's funny, the thing for me was I kind of needed the first retirement to allow me to believe the second retirement.

What the film does is make "retirement" Bruce's natural state, but through overcoming all the trials placed before him in the film, he's able to get his closure on the Batman mission and return to retirement more whole and at peace, with a chance for happiness. It showed that retiring wasn't enough, and that Bruce had to actually want to live. That's what the ending was about, not just that he retired but that he had found the will to live beyond Batman.

If Bruce had been fighting crime for 8 years, I think it might seem more out of the blue that he would choose to retire at the end unless Bane had put him in a wheelchair for life or something. I also think his period of absence gives more drama to his redemption in the eyes of Gotham. So it made both of those things an easier pill to swallow for me.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:29 PM   #470
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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I don't think people are missing any point, I just think some people don't like the kind of style Nolan went for with Batman. To me, it's a very subpar version of the character. I mean, this isn't a nonfictional movie here. Who cares what would happen in real life? And I'm not saying you can't show the pain of being Batman, but at least try to give us an accurate version of the character.

He retires for eight years, then puts the cape back on for one last "hurrah", and then retires again? I think they missed a very vital element to the character of Batman. I loved how they treated him in BB, but then TDK was kinda screwy for me, cause I didn't like how Bruce kept trying to retire with Rachel, although, by the end of TDK, I thought he was going to continue to be Batman. Then TDKR comes out, and it made his character that much worse. This whole "it's a more realistic version of Batman/Batman wouldn't be able to last in the real world" is just a cop out excuse, because a Batman wouldn't be able to survive more than a week in the real world. It all relies on how the character is written, and to me, it's not a proper adaptation of the character. It's so weird how sooo much emphasis is placed on Batman's "no guns" rule, but then the part about Bruce making a promise to his parents and having to fight the same criminals that put his parents in the grave, is fallen by the wayside.

I blame everything on Rachel Dawes.
Well that too. If one doesn't like that approach, one just doesn't like that approach and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

And Bruce never made such a promise to his parents in the Nolan series. Obviously. He was mostly a messed-up guy who needed an outlet for his anger. I was fine with it because again, Nolan's Batman series mostly asks, "What compels a person to do this?" Witnessing their parents' murder isn't enough. There has to be something else. And as we realize by the end of TDKR, nobody wanted Batman for him anyway, let alone his own parents.

I'm okay with the 8 years retirement thing. Along with the physical and emotional toll, Bruce obviously has very human self-doubts about Batman as well. In his mind, Batman was not needed anymore after the events of TDK. Dent was exalted as the true hero, and laws were enacted to destroy organized crime so Batman was not needed anymore. (I'm sure most people have noticed, Nolan's Batman prefers to go after organized crime rather than mere petty crime.) So he quits, and tries to move on like he's told himself he's wanted all these years. But he can't, because he's never really considered his purpose beyond Batman. It's a human weakness.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:33 PM   #471
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I didn't buy it since his first retirement was forced on him by the unbelievable situation that crime ceased completely in Gotham thanks to Harvey Dent's legacy, making Batman (and eventually Gordon it seems) surplus to requirements.

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Batman: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

It wasn't a decision he made when he was still needed in any kind of capacity in Gotham. He was just rendered useless as Batman. A better and more plausible scenario would have been Gotham becoming a more safer city after the truth about Dent is revealed, Batman redeems himself by stopping Bane and saving Gotham, and the city is inspired to pick itself up. Couple that with Bruce learning that his one chance of happiness did not die with Rachel when he learns she chose Dent over him, and he can not only move on with Selina, but he can hang up the cape and cowl in his older years now he as Batman has inspired Gotham into becoming a better city.

Then we still get the great ending only it's from a Bruce Wayne who's spent years fighting as Batman, and not one who had a very brief career as Batman, spent 8 years moping in Wayne Manor, then came back again for one last brief hurrah before retiring yet again.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #472
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I don't know, I still think that Bruce could have continued on as Batman if he wished to. It was just the opportunity to retire, that he sort of forced himself into it. Because isn't that what he wanted all along?

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:43 PM   #473
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I still can't believe that he was retired at the beginning of the movie, and by the end *surprise* he retires.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:48 PM   #474
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Well, there is also the physical toll that required him to be Batman too. He took a really good beating in the first two films, and as TDKR pointed out (with Bruce walking with a cane and all) those things have consequences. He had a good run as Batman, and even the films point out to some things we didn't see. We must not forget the awesome viral campaign, the Gotham Times newspaper, the Gotham Tonight episodes.

And actually I prefer it this way, we get a complete focused story, same creative team and running themes.

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Old 10-03-2012, 01:53 PM   #475
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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I still can't believe that he was retired at the beginning of the movie, and by the end *surprise* he retires.
The first retirement wasn't really real, since he wasn't mentally ready for it. I found it a pretty good excuse to have him be out of shape so Bane can beat him. Not nearly enough screentime to release every prisoner so Batman has to catch them all, etc etc...

Also, goes with the whole thing about hope and despair. People don't know if Batman will be coming back. Mark the orphan (and others, I'm sure) still believes in his existence, and his faith is rewarded at the end.

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