Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Fudgie

You don't get it. The guy vanished after he killed Dent. Gone. Bye bye. For years. Criminals would have taken advantage of that and moved in on Gotham and any other criminals territory.

And you're being blatant. He didn't "vanish" he went into full-on 'stealth" as long as the people were concerned. His presence was always being felt, as was the presence of everyone else from Batman's "world." By the end of TDK most of the mob bosses were killed, criminals were arrested and kept that way, and Batman's absence stopped the Joker's gamble of more freaks emerging (at least publicly). To say that these elements weren't in the film is to question the entire story of why Bane comes into Gotham and why the events of TDKR take place. It's kinda very important.

A prison is a place of punishment. Keeping people in there to serve their full sentences wouldn't frighten away criminals who are not behind bars. You can't sling someone in jail unless you have the goods on them to convict them.

End of discussion.

Why do you punish? Not for justice. But to purge them. Punishment and purgatory are synonymous. In other words, to rehabilitate. The reason you put people into prison is to make sure they're rehabilitated to fit your own crazy definition of morality and normalcy, it's the whole point of imprisonment. Later on when we see Bruce being "imprisoned" indefinitely the thematic parallels are there and made explicit. It's why the main antagonist is Bane -- a guy who revels in that sort of confinement and has an entire origin based around it.

You don't put people behind bars and expect them to stay there forever on tax-payer's money. Even capitol punishment ends with the idea that since you're incapable of going back to society, you'll be killed off. In other words, DEATH is also an act of redemption.

You're put in a prison to redeem yourself. Dent Act, by suggesting that parole is impossible, is basically Two-Face's idea of telling you "there's no escape from this."

Yup and how they achieved that nice happy land Gotham was a load of unrealistic unbelievable hog wash.

Well then suspend yer damned belief

But what do you mean by hog wash? That it shows how hypocritical Batman and his buddies were or that narrative-wise it didn't make any sense whatsoever? Because I'm sure the rest of the forum would disagree with you there.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yeah because the movie makes it such an interesting thing to analyse. Not. 8 years later. Crime is all gone thanks to a law that doesn't give you parole if you're in jail. Batman threw in the cape after TDK because crime was instantly done after Dent popped his clogs.

Holy dumb writing, Batman.

Sure. Because I suppose a city that has a low crime-rate with a lack of a criminal-empire is too fantastical to imagine right?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

The onus is on the movie to prove that. Not us. The only information offered by the movie regarding how the Dent Act works is in relation to denying convicted criminals any parole. Considering it was such a major thing in Gotham, and Nolan gave so little info on it, is what makes it so silly and nonsensical.

Anything else you come up with after that regarding how it works is just theory and conjecture.

These films have danced around other genres but they are superhero movies at heart. I truly don't think there's an onus on the film to explain how a law works when it's premise is that the law has already worked. The mob is non-factor in this movie, so why waste time explaining all the nuts and bolts of how they got put away for good? They were already on the rocks in TDK. It's plot a device that sets up the basic premise for the Batman movie at hand. No matter how much window dressing you were to put on it it's still a plot device, and even if Nolan were to explain how it worked in depth in the movie, it wouldn't change the fact that it's a plot device and I don't think it would change the fact that you and others don't like it as a plot device.

TDK set the precedent for the mob making themselves uncharacteristically vulnerable, TDKR followed up on that and put them out of business in Gotham. The point is it doesn't matter so much how it works- all we know is that it did work and that one of the reasons is that the 500+ Dent prosecuted were denied parole. In fact, doesn't Bane say that "a thousand men have languished" under Dent's name? Another indicator that more mobsters were rounded up with the help of the Dent Act. This supports the logical assumption that more was done beyond just the denial of parole. The denial of parole is obviously important because it's what keeps the mobsters locked up, but just because it's the only specific aspect of the Dent Act mentioned (which makes sense, as it directly relates to a specific loose end of TDK), it doesn't mean we aren't supposed to infer that the Dent Act was an, sweeping, extreme measure, because obviously...the results were extreme.

Just to be clear though, I'm not arguing that the Dent Act did more than just deny parole. I'm arguing that the film is designed for us to infer that, even with a sparsity of details.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

There's no onus on the film, it's not a crime procedural and not a political movie about lawmaking.

I'm not asking for two and a half hours of explanation about the Dent Act. I'm asking for a couple of lines of explanations as to how it managed to turn Gotham into a crime free utopia. Nolan, the master of exposition, should have jumped at the chance at such a thing.

These films have danced around other genres but they are superhero movies at heart. It's plot a device that sets up the basic premise for the Batman movie at hand. No matter how much window dressing you were to put on it it's still a plot device, and even if Nolan were to explain how it worked in depth in the movie, it wouldn't change the fact that it's a plot device and I don't think it would change the fact that you and others don't like it as a plot device.

Exactly. So why are you trying to constantly defend such a flimsy plot device as though you can justify it as something clever and rational when you're admitting here it is not.

Nolan has bent the laws before in the previous two movies, but at least he gave some kind of explanation as to how it worked in the context of his Batman world, even if it was not entirely realistic, he at least afforded his audience some kind of explanation and information.

Why was such a major thing like the Dent Act, which cleaned up the city and made Batman redundant, not given any elaboration on how it worked other than telling us that it denies parole for convicted criminals?

Bad writing is why.

TDK set the precedent for the mob making themselves uncharacteristically vulnerable, TDKR followed up on that and put them out of business in Gotham.

TDK explained why they were so vulnerable. Batman had taken a big bite out of crime. He put Falcone away. He attacked their informers and squeezed info out of them. They also had a new D.A. who could not be bribed or scared off cracking down on them. Then Batman nabbed their mob accountant from Hong Kong and delivered him back to Dent to wrangle info out of him to use against them.

As Alfred so notable pointed out; "You crossed the line first, sir. You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation"

So them being vulnerable and turning to a crazy loose cannon like the Joker for help made sense, and we saw and heard how they got into such a desperate state.

Did we see how Gotham became such a crime free city? Or learned how it happened? No. All we're told is that's just the way it is.

We never see Bruce stop to sit on the can in any of these movies, doesn't mean we're supposed to assume he never goes to the bathroom.

Bruce's bathroom habits are not a point of confusion in these movies.

Likewise, just because denial of parole is the only specific mentioned (which makes sense, as it directly relates to a specific loose end of TDK), it doesn't mean we aren't supposed to infer that it was an extreme measure, because obviously...the results were extreme.

That's not how it works. If you introduce an idea or plot device that has such major repercussions, then you expect the movie to offer some insights on how this works. BB and TDK did. TDKR just went completely lazy in it's writing.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

And you're being blatant. He didn't "vanish" he went into full-on 'stealth" as long as the people were concerned.

I'm sorry, Nave, but that is just untrue. Batman was gone as far as Gotham was concerned. He was not just in stealth mode or what ever it is you're implying. The little orphan kid asking if Batman will ever come back is proof of that.

By the end of TDK most of the mob bosses were killed, criminals were arrested and kept that way, and Batman's absence stopped the Joker's gamble of more freaks emerging (at least publicly). To say that these elements weren't in the film is to question the entire story of why Bane comes into Gotham and why the events of TDKR take place. It's kinda very important.

I see a room full of mob guys. The only mob people who went down in TDK was Gambol, Maroni, and the Chechen. That's three. In Begins we only thought Falcone was the source of the crime in Gotham. Turns out we were wrong. The mob extended beyond just him.

TDK also planted the idea of copycats. Batman inspired rogue copycats. The Joker said he was bringing Gotham "A better class of criminal". He was already attracting Arkham inmates to work for him because they were "the kind of mind the Joker attracts". TDK planted the notion that there was a new era in criminality coming. Joker was going to inspire more freaks just as Batman inspired the copycats. Just like Dent is supposed to inspire Gotham's people with hope.

It was all about inspiration. Cause and effect. Then TDKR turns around and says it's 8 years later, crime is all gone thanks to a parole denying Dent law, and Batman has been gone since the night Dent died.

If felt like the most unnatural follow on to the events of TDK.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Exactly. So why are you trying to constantly defend such a flimsy plot device as though you can justify it as something clever and rational when you're admitting here it is not.

The same reason you're trying to cite it as a point of criticism: we have different feelings about the results. I liked the result, whereas you didn't. I liked seeing a different Gotham 8 years later and I liked seeing Bruce come out of retirement, I liked that this movie felt fresh and didn't deal with the mob again. I enjoyed the Dark Knight Returns elements. One or two lines of explanation isn't make or break for me when it's as simple as using a bit of imagination. What I liked about it all was there were a lot of balls in the air when the movie started, and this keeps me as a viewer on my toes. It wasn't necessarily what you'd expect following up from TDK, and I liked that.

Calling it a plot device doesn't mean I think it's bad. It just is what it is, all 3 movies have plenty of them. I never said it was particularly clever, in fact I had a feeling the mob would be a non-factor in this movie so it didn't really surprise me. I just think it's common sense to assume there's more to it than we're shown, and I think people are being intentionally difficult and narrow about this point because discrediting the premise of the movie= knocking it down several pegs. And I feel a lot of it ultimately comes down to the Batman retirement issue. Would we really be splitting this many hairs over the Dent Act if Batman had still been in action at the start of the film? Somehow I doubt it. That's why I'm arguing.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

The same reason you're trying to cite it as a point of criticism: we have different feelings about the results. I liked the result, whereas you didn't. I liked seeing a different Gotham 8 years later and I like seeing Bruce come out of retirement, I liked that this movie felt fresh and didn't deal with the mob again. One or two lines of explanation isn't make or break for me when it's as simple as using a bit of imagination.

I'm not questioning your liking of it. I would have liked it, too, if there was some insight given into it, and how it didn't feel like a complete 180 to TDK's events. Sequels should feel like a natural continuation to the story. Like how Begins ended with Batman established as a fearsome presence in Gotham, Gordon talking about escalation as a reaction to Batman's presence and the presentation of the Joker card. Even the murder of D.A. Finch left the door open for Dent to step in. TDK really felt like a natural follow up to Begins.

The Dark Knight Returns is one of my favorite Batman stories. The idea of Batman in retirement, coming back when Gotham needs him to kick ass is a great idea. But unlike with Rises, Returns gave insights and explanations as to how and why Batman retired.

Rises just tells us Batman quit after Dent died, and Gotham is crime free because of a law that denies parole.

Calling it a plot device doesn't mean I think it's bad. It just is what it is, all 3 movies have plenty of them. I never said it was particularly clever, in fact I had a feeling the mob would be a non-factor in this movie so it didn't really surprise me. I just think it's common sense to assume there's more to it than we're shown, and I think people are being intentionally difficult and narrow about this point because discrediting the premise of the movie= knocking it down several pegs. And I feel a lot of it ultimately comes down to the Batman retirement issue. Would we really be splitting this many hairs over the Dent Act if Batman had still been in action at the start of the film? Somehow I doubt it. That's why I'm arguing.

This is not like other plot devices. This Dent Act was the big legacy of Harvey Dent which had major repercussions;

1. It made Gotham crime free
2. It denied parole to criminals in Blackgate
3. It caused Batman to become needless and therefore he retired
4. It was going to send Gordon into retirement by the Mayor
5. It was a source of major guilt for Gordon

Now these are major plot points with big consequences. It's really bad show that Nolan never gave any insights as to how Harvey Dent's legacy and Dent Act managed to do what it did, especially when he gives explanations for plot devices much smaller than this.

Regarding your point about Batman retiring, I can understand why it annoys a lot of people considering Batman's career was so short. When you think about it it goes like this; Batman quits, comes back briefly, is put out of action again, comes back again briefly, quits again. All in one movie. I think the idea of Batman retiring after spending many years as Batman sounds more natural and satisfying, which is probably why Returns sits better with people on the retirement front.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

You don't get it. The guy vanished after he killed Dent. Gone. Bye bye. For years. Criminals would have taken advantage of that and moved in on Gotham and any other criminals territory.

Not when there's a Dent Act hanging over the city. If say Gordon finds SOMETHING on one of them, they're gone. Bye bye, as you say. The police either caught the rest of them (as we're led to believe) or some fled the city because they wouldnt want to deal with the Dent Act if they get caught. Either way we see clean streets when we arrive at TDKR so obviously something went down.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

A prison is a place of punishment. Keeping people in there to serve their full sentences wouldn't frighten away criminals who are not behind bars. You can't sling someone in jail unless you have the goods on them to convict them.

Which is obviously what happened in the span of 8 years. Which is why Gordon is looked at as a war-hero and why we dont see any mobs running around at the start of the movie. Stop over-analyzing.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

The point is it doesn't matter so much how it works- all we know is that it did work and that one of the reasons is that the 500+ Dent prosecuted were denied parole. In fact, doesn't Bane say that "a thousand men have languished" under Dent's name? Another indicator that more mobsters were rounded up with the help of the Dent Act. This supports the logical assumption that more was done beyond just the denial of parole.

Yes thank you, i forgot about that quote from Bane. I dont need my hand held like some people around here it seems, because a little nod that Gordons men threw more guys into the slammer during the 8 year gap, is enough for me to comprehend.

I understand folks wanting to know more about how the GCPD locked them up after TDK. I'm not trying to be rude here, but i suggest making a fan-fiction or something about Gordons Adventures, because that's the only way ur gonna see it. They left the audience hints of what occurred (it's not like they didnt. You guys are conveniently ignoring the fact that Gordon is praised for cleaning up streets. It's not just the paper, Gordon himself did further work to achieve this. It's not shown or talked about much but it's hinted at).

One thing i will say. I just thought about it this instant. Let's say you guys are right. Joker, Fudgie, etc. And the mob is still there and that it's impossible for the entire mob to vanish..there's a possibility that there's a couple of gangs that are REALLY laying-low, extra careful, and mainly waiting for things to go bad again. And they'll emerge now that the Act is over and the truth is out. Batman is now dead so they can breathe better. If i was them i would be looking over my shoulder for the murderous Batman to return at any moment in those eight years. It's why i said maybe the Dent Act scared off some of the mob, making them flee Gotham to continue their operations elsewhere. Maybe they return now. Batman might have been gone after TDK but the mob would be walking on eggshells because of the Act & because they fear Batman even more. He would be looked at as like a Red Hood more than the traditional Batman. A Batman who kills to get his way now. If they expose themselves in any way, the psychotic Batman could return and wipe them off the face of the earth.

I still 100% believe that the GCPD took out the majority of organized crime in Batmans absence, because it's hinted at a few times. And i completely disagree that the Dent Act is useless to those who aren't in prison. In my eyes they would be scared of such a legislation.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by The Joker

I'm sorry, Nave, but that is just untrue. Batman was gone as far as Gotham was concerned. He was not just in stealth mode or what ever it is you're implying. The little orphan kid asking if Batman will ever come back is proof of that.

But the possibility that he's still out there lurked in everyone's mind, that orphan wonder if Batman will come back only proves that Batman's presence was still being felt. He had become this sort of urban legend or urban myth -- you always question and there is no certainty, and that's how Batman thrived in these years.

I see a room full of mob guys. The only mob people who went down in TDK was Gambol, Maroni, and the Chechen. That's three. In Begins we only thought Falcone was the source of the crime in Gotham. Turns out we were wrong. The mob extended beyond just him.

Were we really? Let's consider Falcone and Maroni as characters. In the comics they were pretty much competing rivals, in the movie the idea was that Maroni moves into Falcone's crime family and is the new head-honcho, these other guys, the way I saw it, were trying to move into his territory. After the events of TDK there was no mob. The point was that it was supposed to be followed up by Joker's legion of freaks, which sort of happened. The point is that the mob was broken down and eliminated. The Joker and Two-Face killed the major players who were considered as players: Maroni, Gambol and the Chetchen. And the other guys were probably taken down by him as well over the course of the film, they remained unnamed and their deaths are similarly unnamed. It might be conjecture, but the idea that there were more Gotham mob-bosses other than the ones we are told of is conjecture as well right?

TDK also planted the idea of copycats. Batman inspired rogue copycats. The Joker said he was bringing Gotham "A better class of criminal". He was already attracting Arkham inmates to work for him because they were "the kind of mind the Joker attracts". TDK planted the notion that there was a new era in criminality coming. Joker was going to inspire more freaks just as Batman inspired the copycats. Just like Dent is supposed to inspire Gotham's people with hope.

It was all about inspiration. Cause and effect. Then TDKR turns around and says it's 8 years later, crime is all gone thanks to a parole denying Dent law, and Batman has been gone since the night Dent died.

If felt like the most unnatural follow on to the events of TDK.

That's actually a good point about inspiring copy-cats, but since Batman disappears there's no other vigilantes (other than Catwoman I guess), as the Joker's gone there's no one else he can inspire, as Dent is dead, there is nothing to inspire them anymore.

Which goes back to the idea that Gotham has become this decadent place -- decadent not because of corruption but because it reached the highest point of any culture, when it's values have become meaningless to them, the ultimate end of the era. Like those neo-classicists before the Victorian era, or the gilded age, or something out of F. Scott Fitzgerald: society becomes decadent because there is nothing to inspire them.

It's a sordid, somber, and scary place to be.

[Nave 'Torment']

also regarding the idea of putting people in prison -- the Dent Act also seems to imply that there is no place to appeal a court's decision, and then there's the idea (which I guess has already been answered) that it also allowed suspected felons to be imprisoned without parole as well. The idea is that doctrine is ****. Batman, Bane, the Joker, etc. they all are the ooposite of doctrine or logos -- they are legends, and mythos and bring up speculation. That's why Batman's disapperance still kept him alive in people's minds, you can't have a society without its myths.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

But the possibility that he's still out there lurked in everyone's mind,

According to whom?

that orphan wonder if Batman will come back only proves that Batman's presence was still being felt.

No it just proves some people are wondering if Batman will ever come back. Coming back implies he's gone. If he's still there lurking then he's not gone at all. He's just in hiding.

There's a big difference.

He had become this sort of urban legend or urban myth

No he had not. His existence was very factual. He was still blamed for killing Dent and those other people.

Were we really?

Most definitely.

"Falcone floods our streets with crime, creating new Joe Chills every day. Falcone may not have killed your parents, Bruce. But he's destroying everything they stood for"

Let's consider Falcone and Maroni as characters. In the comics they were pretty much competing rivals, in the movie the idea was that Maroni moves into Falcone's crime family and is the new head-honcho, these other guys, the way I saw it, were trying to move into his territory.

The way you saw it. Based on what? The mob all seemed on friendly terms in that mob meeting with Joker. You even see Maroni and the Chechen shake hands at the start of it. There's no mention of turf wars, or moving in on someone elses rackets or anything like that.

You've no basis for this at all.

After the events of TDK there was no mob.

Only in TDKR. That's the problem. It makes no sense.

The point was that it was supposed to be followed up by Joker's legion of freaks, which sort of happened.

No, it didn't. How did it happen?

Where are the legion of freaks you're talking about?

The point is that the mob was broken down and eliminated. The Joker and Two-Face killed the major players who were considered as players: Maroni, Gambol and the Chetchen.

Except that is again conjecture. You saw a room full of mob guys meeting with Lau to discuss their money. You're trying to tell me out of those twenty something men there only three of them were prominent?

LOL, come off it.

And the other guys were probably taken down by him as well over the course of the film, they remained unnamed and their deaths are similarly unnamed. It might be conjecture

Complete utter conjecture. No offense but I can't debate with made up fairy tales that the movie does not substantiate in any way. I can go and make up what if scenarios that the movies don't support at all, but what's the point in doing that? We might as well rewrite the whole movie to try and explain away the horrid writing. Which is what you and Shauner11 are doing.

If you're going to try and support your argument, use something from the movies that supports your claims.

but the idea that there were more Gotham mob-bosses other than the ones we are told of is conjecture as well right?

No, because we saw a room full of these guys at this important meeting with Lau about their money.

Why else would they be there unless they were big heads in the underworld, and they had a big stake in this money issue as much as Maroni and the others did?

That's actually a good point about inspiring copy-cats, but since Batman disappears there's no other vigilantes (other than Catwoman I guess), as the Joker's gone there's no one else he can inspire, as Dent is dead, there is nothing to inspire them anymore.

That's my point. Just because someone has gone doesn't mean their actions are not remembered. Isn't that what the whole point of Dent was? He is gone but his memory and actions as D.A. are not forgotten. Isn't that what Batman wanted to do? Inspire people and then retire? But his memory lives on as an inspiration to the people.

Did you ever see Batman Beyond? Set like 50 years into the future. The Jokerz gang were inspired by Joker, even though he'd been dead for decades. Evil can inspire evil minds as much as good ones can inspire good people. That was what Joker was saying when he was talking about bringing a better class of criminals to Gotham. More freaks like him.

[JackWhite]

When exactly did the Dent Act take effect?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by shauner111

Not when there's a Dent Act hanging over the city.

Which is nothing to worry about unless you're in jail.

If say Gordon finds SOMETHING on one of them, they're gone. Bye bye, as you say.

If. How easy did Gordon find it to dig up dirt on the mob in the past? He never could. They were untouchable. He needed Batman and Dent for that.

Are the mob suddenly airing their dirty laundry in public?

The police either caught the rest of them (as we're led to believe) or some fled the city because they wouldnt want to deal with the Dent Act if they get caught. Either way we see clean streets when we arrive at TDKR so obviously something went down.

We all know that TDKR claims all the criminals are gone, or locked up. The problem is how did this utopia happen? How did this Dent Act eradicate criminality from Gotham so effectively?

You're happy to be just told that's how it is. You don't care about the details. You don't care how such a dramatic change in the state of affairs that also had dramatic consequences on Batman happened. You just make up your own stories that the movies don't support.

That's you. We don't all share your desire for a lack of good story telling to fill in the blanks on major plot issues.

One thing i will say. I just thought about it this instant. Let's say you guys are right. Joker, Fudgie, etc. And the mob is still there and that it's impossible for the entire mob to vanish..there's a possibility that there's a couple of gangs that are REALLY laying-low, extra careful, and mainly waiting for things to go bad again.

Stop and think about what you just suggested there.

How many criminals have you ever heard of that are willing to sit on their asses for years, with no operations, no rackets, no drug trades, no money laundering, nothing going on, just waiting for the chance that MAYBE things could go bad again in the future?

I still 100% believe that the GCPD took out the majority of organized crime in Batmans absence, because it's hinted at a few times.

No, it's not.The only time it's mentioned is when Blake said "When you and Dent cleaned up the streets you cleaned them good. Pretty soon we'll be chasing overdue library books"

Was Dent's ghost working with Gordon in those 8 years lol?

And i completely disagree that the Dent Act is useless to those who aren't in prison. In my eyes they would be scared of such a legislation.

Why? Unless arrest and conviction is very likely, and that can only happen if you're convicted based on damning evidence being dug up against you, there is nothing to fear.

The authorities could never get anything to nail the mob on in Begins and TDK. It took Batman and his unorthodox methods to do that. Dent wouldn't have even got Lau if Batman didn't kidnap him from Hong Kong. They'd never have identified the mob banks if Batman didn't supply them with the marked bills.

What the hell is Gordon going to do on his own in those 8 years that would make him nail all of the mob any better than he could before?

[BatLobsterRises]

We have to account for the fact that Dent locked up somewhere in the ballpark of 500 criminals in TDK, and Bane references 1,000 of them being imprisoned under the Dent Act. Is that not sufficient evidence to assume that the Dent Act also helped law enforcement lock up additional criminals beyond those that Harvey prosecuted? Even if we don't know the nuts and bolts of it, numbers are numbers.

Saying that Bane is rounding the number up or just saying it for effect is just as much conjecture as anything else. The movie is tipping us off right there if you're paying attention that the Dent Act has put away more criminals than the ones who were on the ferry in TDK. It's been 8 years...there's endless scenarios in which they could have been busted and endless ways the Dent Act could have sped the process, and I personally don't have much interest as to how it went down, unless it involved Batman somehow helping Gordon from the shadows (in which case I'd love to see a prequel comic).

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

Sure. Because I suppose a city that has a low crime-rate with a lack of a criminal-empire is too fantastical to imagine right?

It is if it went from the worst city ever to a crime less city because they passed a no parole law. LOL. Dumb.

Originally Posted by shauner111

Not when there's a Dent Act hanging over the city. If say Gordon finds SOMETHING on one of them, they're gone. Bye bye, as you say. The police either caught the rest of them (as we're led to believe) or some fled the city because they wouldnt want to deal with the Dent Act if they get caught. Either way we see clean streets when we arrive at TDKR so obviously something went down.

Yeah I can just see the criminals fleeing Gotham City because of that.

"We better get the hell out of here. They've passed a law that if we get caught and put in jail we don't get parole. Lets drop all our criminal dealings and empires and haul ass because it's so easy to get put in jail when you're a mob lord in Gotham"

Which is obviously what happened in the span of 8 years. Which is why Gordon is looked at as a war-hero and why we dont see any mobs running around at the start of the movie.

He's a war hero because he took on the mob and the Joker. That was the war. He got promoted to Commissioner. The war ended when Dent popped his clogs. That's why Bats stopped being Batman that night.

See how dumb it is.

Stop over-analyzing.

Stop conjecturing.

Originally Posted by JackWhite

When exactly did the Dent Act take effect?

This lousy movie doesn't give you vital info like that.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

We have to account for the fact that Dent locked up somewhere in the ballpark of 500 criminals in TDK, and Bane references 1,000 of them being imprisoned under the Dent Act. Is that not sufficient evidence to assume that the Dent Act also helped law enforcement lock up additional criminals beyond those that Harvey prosecuted? Even if we don't know the nuts and bolts of it, numbers are numbers.

Yeah I'm sure Gotham's jails were empty before Harvey Dent came along. Who were all those crazies locked up in Arkham in Begins that Ra's let loose. Crooks.

[MAKAVELI25]

The lengths people are going to to defend this movie are ridiculous. I'm glad Fudgie and The Joker are in here arguing with you guys because I don't certainly have the patience for it

[The Batman]

^ This.

[Caped Crusader]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

The lengths people are going to to defend this movie are ridiculous. I'm glad Fudgie and The Joker are in here arguing with you guys because I don't certainly have the patience for it

The people who are defending TDKR obviously liked or loved the movie so why does that matter? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by The Joker

According to whom?

No it just proves some people are wondering if Batman will ever come back. Coming back implies he's gone. If he's still there lurking then he's not gone at all. He's just in hiding.

There's a big difference.

Well I'm not saying he's actually lurking, but the fact that he's in hiding does imply that he's still out there waiting to come back if the situation calls for it. The next Joker or freak would be mindful of that.

According to the world of the movie -- if Batman has disappeared completely with no trace of his name people (especially Blake, a new character, that orphan, and everyone else) would not have remembered him. He's become folklore for Gothamates based on these examples. If he's still remembered then he is remembered as a vigilante who's willing to commit murder. The reason I'm insisting on this is because it shows us that Gotham City exists in TDKR in a crazy balance where on one side you have the Dent Act perpetually condemning criminals to prison, and on the outside this "silent and watchful guardian" reminding everyone that he's still out there.

That's a terrifying world that's been established if you think about it. I'm just not convinced it's bad writing.

No he had not. His existence was very factual. He was still blamed for killing Dent and those other people.

Events that happened eight years ago and still being talked about. He's an urban legend in TDKR, like stories or myths that tell us how the world has become the way it is. I don't think we're really disagreeing here coz it's a different issue entirely from what we're talking about here...

Most definitely.

"Falcone floods our streets with crime, creating new Joe Chills every day. Falcone may not have killed your parents, Bruce. But he's destroying everything they stood for"

True, but I meant were we really mistaken when we thought that Falcone was the one big guy? You said yourself that there was no indication of turf wars, and organised crime really does center itself around one hierarchy, to which the Chetchen and Gambol were probably smaller players who moved up due to the power vacuum. But like you said, this is pure conjecture.

The way you saw it. Based on what? The mob all seemed on friendly terms in that mob meeting with Joker. You even see Maroni and the Chechen shake hands at the start of it. There's no mention of turf wars, or moving in on someone elses rackets or anything like that.

You've no basis for this at all.

Yes, the way I saw it based on the events in the movie. Some of it is left ambiguous and open to interpretation, that doesn't mean they're false or impossible to interpret in a different way. In other words, conjecture based on the ambiguity of the content can't be disregarded completely since multiple interpretations is very much possible. And I'm fine with the way you've tackled the issue of Batman being a factual figure, of the mob having moved in, but I'm still not convinced of the claim that this is all bad writing.

No, it didn't. How did it happen?

Where are the legion of freaks you're talking about?

Well, both Harvey and those inmates who worked for the Joker were used as examples for "freaks," fact that there wasn't a full-scale invasion of freaks was a way of showing that Batman won that dispute with the Joker - the Joker "didn't win."

Except that is again conjecture. You saw a room full of mob guys meeting with Lau to discuss their money. You're trying to tell me out of those twenty something men there only three of them were prominent

Well it goes both ways -- if I'm not told they're mob-bosses I won't assume they're mob-bosses Gambol, Chetchen, Maroni, and Falcone's old empire, that's 4 major mob bosses, I don't think a city could handle any more. When Dent brings them to court they talk about charges ranging from racketeering to fraud, all of which doesn't necessarily have to mean you're a mob boss to do it.

Complete utter conjecture. No offense but I can't debate with made up fairy tales that the movie does not substantiate in any way. I can go and make up what if scenarios that the movies don't support at all, but what's the point in doing that? We might as well rewrite the whole movie to try and explain away the horrid writing. Which is what you and Shauner11 are doing.

Non-taken, but you can't disregard multiple interpretation completely. Harvey was out for blood to get all the "head-guys" because they had all decided to unleash the Joker on Batman, leading to Rachel's death. The fact is that in TDK they don't portray any other mob-bosses in Gotham City, it's just Gambol, Maroni, and the Chetchen.

So yeah, you may be right in saying that it's unrealistic to assume that after the events of TDK that crime would be wiped out completely, that there would be no one moving up to occupy that power-vacuum that took place in Gotham's underworld at the end of TDK, but looking back the way they told the story was that with Batman, Gordon, Joker, Two-Face, the old ways were gone, there were no more mob guys left and that Joker's "class" of criminals were the only ones left to face -- lunatics who weren't out for money but out for that sort of comic-book world of supervillain vs superhero fix, and Batman's absence left it out.

Come to think of it, I guess Frank Miller's DKR portrayed it better, that the streets were filled with petty thieves and criminals and juveniles like the Mutants while Batman's "rogues gallery" was made redundant because Batman wasn't there anymore (that makes sense to me). So the mobs are gone, the freaks were gone/never germinated (I think Nolan made it a point to keep this obscure), and the petty-criminals were dealt with severely with the Dent Act. So yeah, the streets were cleaned. But it was still rotten.

If you're going to try and support your argument, use something from the movies that supports your claims.

I am.

That's my point. Just because someone has gone doesn't mean their actions are not remembered. Isn't that what the whole point of Dent was? He is gone but his memory and actions as D.A. are not forgotten. Isn't that what Batman wanted to do? Inspire people and then retire? But his memory lives on as an inspiration to the people.

Did you ever see Batman Beyond? Set like 50 years into the future. The Jokerz gang were inspired by Joker, even though he'd been dead for decades. Evil can inspire evil minds as much as good ones can inspire good people. That was what Joker was saying when he was talking about bringing a better class of criminals to Gotham. More freaks like him.

Those are again good points, Batman's actions are remembered, but because Batman isn't there any more you don't have another Joker popping out to challenge him (not until Bane at least, but I see him as a further evolution from the rogues gallery). Scarecrow, Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, these are all "freaks" in the sense we're looking at it. As there were no more Batman (directly) there wasn't any Joker to inspire more crazies. Gotham City in TDKR is a city that has lost its source for inspiration in every area of its culture.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by The Joker

If. How easy did Gordon find it to dig up dirt on the mob in the past? He never could. They were untouchable. He needed Batman and Dent for that.

Are the mob suddenly airing their dirty laundry in public?


We all know that TDKR claims all the criminals are gone, or locked up. The problem is how did this utopia happen? How did this Dent Act eradicate criminality from Gotham so effectively?

No the entire point in Batman Begins was that there was always incriminating evidence but there wasn't a "DA brave enough to prosecute." Batman's emergence gave you the sort of evidence you can't go back on, Dent Act solidified that you couldn't pull an insanity plea or opt for parole. But I'm still going by what I said earlier about its thematic significance: prison. TDKR is a movie about imprisonment. The Dent Act removes redemption from possibility.

[TheBat812]

Joker, in the same way that they don't tell us any of that, they don't not tell us any of that, but do give us enough vague information to be able to guess as to what happened. Like BatLobsterRises said, what is important is not how it happened, but that it happened. They had to pick and choose their battles here, and there simply was no need to elaborate on the Dent law than the Gordon/Blake convo. If anything this shows expositional restraint and efficiency by Nolan. The most obvious fact that they were putting away more people including the mob bosses and their posses is that the city is free of street crime. What more evidence than that do you need? They also state that it happened directly because of the Dent act. And later give an example of a corrupt way they were able to keep the streets cleaner for longer. The Bane statement. How much more evidence do we need before it becomes superfluous?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yeah I'm sure Gotham's jails were empty before Harvey Dent came along. Who were all those crazies locked up in Arkham in Begins that Ra's let loose. Crooks.

“Now that the Dent Act had made it all but impossible for the city’s criminals to cop an insanity plea, it (Blackgate Prison) had replaced Arkham Asylum as the preferred location for imprisoning both convicted and suspected felons. The worst of the worst were sent here, except for the Joker, who, rumor had it, was locked away as Arkham’s sole remaining inmate. Or perhaps he had escaped. Nobody was really sure. Not even Selina.”

-TDKR novelization

Look, I know you're going to say "conjecture!", but at least you can point the finger at Greg Cox this time.

Personally, I think its one thing to discredit viral marketing, but novelizations have always been companion pieces to films and aren't meant to contradict the films they represent. At the very least can't this be some food for thought? Must we have every single detail spoon fed within the confines of the film? Is it really that hard to believe a bill that gave law enforcement more power and criminals less loopholes could bring organized crime to a halt? I've certainly suspended disbelief for far more outrageous things in this franchise.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

The lengths people are going to to defend this movie are ridiculous. I'm glad Fudgie and The Joker are in here arguing with you guys because I don't certainly have the patience for it

I'm running out of patience myself.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

We have to account for the fact that Dent locked up somewhere in the ballpark of 500 criminals in TDK, and Bane references 1,000 of them being imprisoned under the Dent Act. Is that not sufficient evidence to assume that the Dent Act also helped law enforcement lock up additional criminals beyond those that Harvey prosecuted? Even if we don't know the nuts and bolts of it, numbers are numbers.

Saying that Bane is rounding the number up or just saying it for effect is just as much conjecture as anything else. The movie is tipping us off right there if you're paying attention that the Dent Act has put away more criminals than the ones who were on the ferry in TDK. It's been 8 years...there's endless scenarios in which they could have been busted and endless ways the Dent Act could have sped the process, and I personally don't have much interest as to how it went down, unless it involved Batman somehow helping Gordon from the shadows (in which case I'd love to see a prequel comic).

Yup, this is pretty much how I pictured it.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

It is if it went from the worst city ever to a crime less city because they passed a no parole law. LOL. Dumb.

Yeah I can just see the criminals fleeing Gotham City because of that.

"We better get the hell out of here. They've passed a law that if we get caught and put in jail we don't get parole. Lets drop all our criminal dealings and empires and haul ass because it's so easy to get put in jail when you're a mob lord in Gotham"


He's a war hero because he took on the mob and the Joker. That was the war. He got promoted to Commissioner. The war ended when Dent popped his clogs. That's why Bats stopped being Batman that night.

See how dumb it is.

This lousy movie doesn't give you vital info like that.[/QUOTE]

Which part of dead mob-bosses, imprisoned criminals, stricter codes, lack of freaks is part of "only a no parole law" ? Worst city ever to a crime less city works because we're talking about Batman's city. Forget rule-of-cool, the entire trilogy shows you how: with dedicated citizens and law-enforcers. It's very possible... are you... a mob-sympathizer? Like a mobathizer?


See that's just it, you didn't like the movie and that's fine. But don't go around mouthing off that it's dumb and stupid and blame it on the writing. Especially when the aspect your dissing is background info.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

The lengths people are going to to defend this movie are ridiculous. I'm glad Fudgie and The Joker are in here arguing with you guys because I don't certainly have the patience for it

I'm glad people are talking about the movie and discussing various interpretations on an issue that's been left ambiguous. I'm not glad of people randomly calling a good movie lousy, especially one that I've loved so much, so yeah I'm sorry if that tests your patience. The door's always open.

The reason the Dent Act is important to Bruce Wayne is because it's still talking about imprisonment, something that Bruce himself faces in this film. Let's keep the argument there.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

The reason the Dent Act is important to Bruce Wayne is because it's still talking about imprisonment, something that Bruce himself faces in this film. Let's keep the argument there.

Unfortunately your astute thematic insight has been overruled on the account of it not being stated verbatim in the film, therefore rendering it total conjecture.

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