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Old 11-30-2012, 01:18 AM   #751
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Another thing I picked up on during Blake's first scene with Bruce, is when Blake mentions not really remembering his mothers death but remembering his dad getting shot just fine; and then they pan over to Bruce and the look on his face shows how he's reliving that terrible tragedy all over again.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:22 AM   #752
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Probably a definitive 'No' answer, but do you think Bruce had compromised his morals so much is because of being strayed away for a moment of time with the League and Ra's al Ghul? I mean, Bruce is keen on not killing, BUT, being trained under Ra's(or who he thought was Henri Ducard), could have compromised on how far he'd take things such as taking the blame of Dent's crime or creating the sonar....something we already saw with Blake that definitely had these morals already that could be more outstanding than Bruce.
I don't think so. I think he just wanted it to work too badly. At the same time, he didn't trust people enough to handle things, such as the truth about Dent. Maybe even Blake would have come up with the cell phone sonar if the stakes were high enough, but Blake seems to have a little more trust in people to handle truth. Certainly not young orphans, but certainly with the other cops, he doesn't tiptoe around awkward situations. In fact, he pretty much gets right to the point with the Special Forces guy.

I'm wondering if part of Bruce's insistence that people need to be coddled comes from the Wayne's wealth and influence. This refers to the inherent fascism of the Batman character. (Well, pretty much all vigilantes and superheroes are inherently fascist but I digress.) His parents, as kind and generous as they were, were extremely influential and Bruce probably grew up with the notion that whatever he or the family decided was always for the best of society. There was never anyone who told him no or who ordered him around. He always knew better than anyone else.

Blake doesn't have that because he came from a poor background. He trusts other people because he grew up WITH other people, dealing with everyday things, and he is aware that people are capable. He lived it. Bruce thinks he has that optimism, but he lacks it because of his background. There's always been a brick wall between Bruce Wayne and the real world.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:29 AM   #753
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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But didn't Blake say that he's angry in his bones as well or something like that? He shares that commonality with Bruce. Of course, he's not as scarred as Bruce but he's not the happiest person in the world as well. I'm not fond of that interpretation but I can definitely see why most would interpret that he would be a better Batman considering that Nolan pretty much created Blake as an answer to Bruce and Gordon's flaws *cough*GaryStu*cough*. Personally, I don't think we can definitely say that he'll have a much better moral stand than Bruce because he hasn't been through what Bruce went through yet. Maybe he will go through the same suffering. Or maybe not. What if he falls in love with someone and that someone ends up dying because of his war on crime? How will he deal with it? Maybe he can take it better than Bruce but maybe not as well. JMO.
This is where Bruce's wealth and the influence of the Wayne family is a disservice to him. Rich folks only have a very small circle of people whom they can trust - you never know who's really after your money. Bruce only had Alfred growing up. Alfred was the only person he could trust.

Whereas, sure, Blake was shuffled around the foster care system because he was "too angry," but the system did him good in the end. He seemed pretty close to the Father at the boy's home. He recognizes that there were people genuinely out to do right by him. He's a product of many good people in Gotham. Because of that, I don't think he's as emotionally scarred as Bruce, and he might have been as angry about being an orphan, but he also might have better capability to know when he's going too far with it.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:46 AM   #754
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Reminds me of BB after Scarecrow sets him afire.

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Old 11-30-2012, 02:11 AM   #755
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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I loved it when Batman checked out Catwoman's ass
Her catwalk strut to the batpod is win.

I'll have to watch the scene again but I think he checks her out in the same way as she get up to take Batman to Bane.

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Old 11-30-2012, 09:05 AM   #756
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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This is where Bruce's wealth and the influence of the Wayne family is a disservice to him. Rich folks only have a very small circle of people whom they can trust - you never know who's really after your money. Bruce only had Alfred growing up. Alfred was the only person he could trust.

Whereas, sure, Blake was shuffled around the foster care system because he was "too angry," but the system did him good in the end. He seemed pretty close to the Father at the boy's home. He recognizes that there were people genuinely out to do right by him. He's a product of many good people in Gotham. Because of that, I don't think he's as emotionally scarred as Bruce, and he might have been as angry about being an orphan, but he also might have better capability to know when he's going too far with it.
I think we need to remember Bruce's years of traveling by himself a little better here. He set off on his own without any money so that he could "taste desperate," and I think you do see some trust in people in the way he deals with criminals: he seems convinced that the ferries won't blow up, he refuses to kill the murder Ra's presents to him (perhaps demonstrating he now understands everyday criminals like Joe Chill as still being men), and his interactions with Selina almost suggest that he actually admires classic cat-burglars and thieves.

So while Bruce may not understand how the middle may feel, I think he does have some connection to the lowest of the low. Heck, the decision to take the fall is justified. He sees what having your hope crushed is doing to Gordon and he saw what it did to Two face, and it seems to actually work as a course of action. The mob is broken by the Harvey Dent act, and the people of Gotham don't devour each other in nearly the manner Bane seems to expect. The city feels exactly like a city under occupation of a heavily armed minority, instead of the mad anarchy you actually got in the French Revolution.

I always figured one of the first conversations Wayne and Kyle would have after the battle would feature Bruce showing just how much he actually understood the underbelly of the city.

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:44 AM   #757
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And he actually did it twice!

I didn't realize until recently that he did it first when they met at the sewers. Oh Batman.
Bruce got laid...and then he decides to creep and stare at Catwoman's ass like a couple hours later

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:46 AM   #758
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I think another reason why Nolan/Bale's Batman is definitive is because they touched upon all, if not most, of Bruce/Batman's main attributes and character traits:

- Detective work
- Strong willed
- Master strategist
- Crime fighter
- Playboy facade
- Rage
- Vengeful
- Arrogant
- Lack of complete trust in others
- The need for a family AKA the Bat-family

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:47 AM   #759
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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I don't think so. I think he just wanted it to work too badly. At the same time, he didn't trust people enough to handle things, such as the truth about Dent. Maybe even Blake would have come up with the cell phone sonar if the stakes were high enough, but Blake seems to have a little more trust in people to handle truth. Certainly not young orphans, but certainly with the other cops, he doesn't tiptoe around awkward situations. In fact, he pretty much gets right to the point with the Special Forces guy.

I'm wondering if part of Bruce's insistence that people need to be coddled comes from the Wayne's wealth and influence. This refers to the inherent fascism of the Batman character. (Well, pretty much all vigilantes and superheroes are inherently fascist but I digress.) His parents, as kind and generous as they were, were extremely influential and Bruce probably grew up with the notion that whatever he or the family decided was always for the best of society. There was never anyone who told him no or who ordered him around. He always knew better than anyone else.

Blake doesn't have that because he came from a poor background. He trusts other people because he grew up WITH other people, dealing with everyday things, and he is aware that people are capable. He lived it. Bruce thinks he has that optimism, but he lacks it because of his background. There's always been a brick wall between Bruce Wayne and the real world.
But Blake did seem to lose his trust with the police though. Could that be a slippery slope?

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Old 11-30-2012, 12:06 PM   #760
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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This is where Bruce's wealth and the influence of the Wayne family is a disservice to him. Rich folks only have a very small circle of people whom they can trust - you never know who's really after your money. Bruce only had Alfred growing up. Alfred was the only person he could trust.

Whereas, sure, Blake was shuffled around the foster care system because he was "too angry," but the system did him good in the end. He seemed pretty close to the Father at the boy's home. He recognizes that there were people genuinely out to do right by him. He's a product of many good people in Gotham. Because of that, I don't think he's as emotionally scarred as Bruce, and he might have been as angry about being an orphan, but he also might have better capability to know when he's going too far with it.
I agree that Bruce is more emotionally scarred but I still don't think we can definitely say that Blake will be more than capable when faced with the same scenarios that Bruce faced as Batman. If you look at it at another way, Bruce being more emotionally scarred might've been what made him stronger during those times. With Blake having a "softer" past than Bruce, he might break faster when dealing with the same situations (just like what happened to Harvey).

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I think we need to remember Bruce's years of traveling by himself a little better here. He set off on his own without any money so that he could "taste desperate," and I think you do see some trust in people in the way he deals with criminals: he seems convinced that the ferries won't blow up, he refuses to kill the murder Ra's presents to him (perhaps demonstrating he now understands everyday criminals like Joe Chill as still being men), and his interactions with Selina almost suggest that he actually admires classic cat-burglars and thieves.

So while Bruce may not understand how the middle may feel, I think he does have some connection to the lowest of the low. Heck, the decision to take the fall is justified. He sees what having your hope crushed is doing to Gordon and he saw what it did to Two face, and it seems to actually work as a course of action. The mob is broken by the Harvey Dent act, and the people of Gotham don't devour each other in nearly the manner Bane seems to expect. The city feels exactly like a city under occupation of a heavily armed minority, instead of the mad anarchy you actually got in the French Revolution.

I always figured one of the first conversations Wayne and Kyle would have after the battle would feature Bruce showing just how much he actually understood the underbelly of the city.
Good stuff. I agree.


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Bruce got laid...and then he decides to creep and stare at Catwoman's ass like a couple hours later
Cut him some slack! He had a dry spell for 8 years!


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But Blake did seem to lose his trust with the police though. Could that be a slippery slope?
Yeah... From the little we've seen of Blake, he's not exactly puppies and rainbows either. He butt heads with Foley, he got frustrated and threw his badge after the incident with the military, etc. He has anger in him as well. If anything, I think the events in TDKR opened his eyes to some ugly truths.

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Old 11-30-2012, 12:11 PM   #761
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Yeah... From the little we've seen of Blake, he's not exactly puppies and rainbows either. He butt heads with Foley, he got frustrated and threw his badge after the incident with the military, etc. He has anger in him as well. If anything, I think the events in TDKR opened his eyes to some ugly truths.
Could you say he was a "hot head"? If only they could have conveyed that to the audience....

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:28 PM   #762
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Could you say he was a "hot head"? If only they could have conveyed that to the audience....
I actually loved the repeated use of the term. It accurately and hilariously portrays foley as a man molded by the expectations of the system. The man is such a dooface, at least the Nolan's showed they understood that about him - cracks me up every time, haha

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:58 PM   #763
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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But Blake did seem to lose his trust with the police though. Could that be a slippery slope?
He didn't lose faith in people's strength, remember? "They haven't seen daylight in 3 months." "Police officers who haven't seen daylight in 3 months."

He lost faith in the system, not the people. Bruce didn't lose faith in the system - he never had faith in the system to begin with. Unlike the comics, Bruce never even attempted going into the police force or FBI or CIA to fight crime legitimately. He just KNEW what he had to do, and what he had to do to help Gotham was Batman.

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I think we need to remember Bruce's years of traveling by himself a little better here. He set off on his own without any money so that he could "taste desperate," and I think you do see some trust in people in the way he deals with criminals: he seems convinced that the ferries won't blow up, he refuses to kill the murder Ra's presents to him (perhaps demonstrating he now understands everyday criminals like Joe Chill as still being men), and his interactions with Selina almost suggest that he actually admires classic cat-burglars and thieves.

So while Bruce may not understand how the middle may feel, I think he does have some connection to the lowest of the low. Heck, the decision to take the fall is justified. He sees what having your hope crushed is doing to Gordon and he saw what it did to Two face, and it seems to actually work as a course of action. The mob is broken by the Harvey Dent act, and the people of Gotham don't devour each other in nearly the manner Bane seems to expect. The city feels exactly like a city under occupation of a heavily armed minority, instead of the mad anarchy you actually got in the French Revolution.

I always figured one of the first conversations Wayne and Kyle would have after the battle would feature Bruce showing just how much he actually understood the underbelly of the city.
But from what we can see of Bruce's behavior, he lived among the desperate so he knew what it was LIKE, but he could never live their lives. How could he? With one phone call, Alfred could be ferrying him home to his manor and his billions. He tasted desperate. He didn't come from it. He didn't truly live it, if he knew he had an out.

Young Blake had no out. He had no parents, nowhere to go. To survive, he HAD to depend on the goodwill of others he didn't know he could trust at first.

To be fair, Bruce did it much better than Mitt "we lived in a basement apartment and ate ramen while selling my stock as income so I know what it's like to be poor" Romney. Rich influential people who are philanthropists often have the idea that they know better. It's just a symptom of being in that social class.

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I agree that Bruce is more emotionally scarred but I still don't think we can definitely say that Blake will be more than capable when faced with the same scenarios that Bruce faced as Batman. If you look at it at another way, Bruce being more emotionally scarred might've been what made him stronger during those times. With Blake having a "softer" past than Bruce, he might break faster when dealing with the same situations (just like what happened to Harvey).
Harvey in TDK was a classic type A personality, and that's what broke him. He was exactly like Batman without the tragic past. Both do not react well when they're not in control, except Harvey went over the edge while Bruce only skirted it.

Blake has proved himself to be much more adaptable than either of them, during the siege.

And of course we can't say for sure that Blake would handle being Batman better than Bruce, but Bruce can be hopelessly optimistic about people. But I actually do find it kind of poetic that Bruce could use his wealth to create an inherently fascist symbol, then give up the power to one of the people. Well, "Batman" is still inherently fascist, but now people can't accuse Blake of being an out-of-touch rich boy who thinks he knows better because he was born in a rich and influential family.

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Old 11-30-2012, 03:26 PM   #764
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Expanding on he idea tha Anita brought up about Bruces upbringing, this is exactly what Bane is talking about: 'you merely adopted the dark, I was born in it.' this along with what the guy in the pit says ('a man born with nothing, not a man of privelege') are very telling about this. Astute observation, Anita!

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Old 11-30-2012, 03:42 PM   #765
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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Expanding on he idea tha Anita brought up about Bruces upbringing, this is exactly what Bane is talking about: 'you merely adopted the dark, I was born in it.' this along with what the guy in the pit says ('a man born with nothing, not a man of privelege') are very telling about this. Astute observation, Anita!
What the prisoner thought was that Bruce didn't have the strength or spirit to escape, because he was a spoiled rich boy. And that's obviously a mistake - you should never underestimate the strength and resilience of anyone's spirit, no matter where they come from. The human spirit is blind to your background.

But there are ramifications regarding where you come from and what you know. In terms of KNOWING what desperate felt like, Bruce could never feel that. The closest he came was probably in that pit, because he didn't have the means to call Alfred. He was stuck in there with only himself, his prisoner friend, and the doctor who believed in him. And that's not exactly a real-world scenario that most of the desperate find themselves in.

At least he came out of there believing more in the strength of people and being able to trust in others. He certainly didn't feel the need to rally the entire Gotham police force to beat Bane the first one around.

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Old 11-30-2012, 05:09 PM   #766
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

And here we thought Bale is not proud of Newsies...


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Old 11-30-2012, 05:12 PM   #767
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And here we thought Bale is not proud of Newsies...

Saw that on Nolanfans message board, had me in stitches!

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Old 11-30-2012, 05:16 PM   #768
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I made that and it just got tagged as FILM on Tumblr. OMG.

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Old 11-30-2012, 05:19 PM   #769
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I made that and it just got tagged as FILM on Tumblr. OMG.

You made it? Awesome!

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Old 12-03-2012, 11:55 PM   #770
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I remember craigdbfan making this connection a long time ago:

]

“If you are bored of brawling with thieves and want to achieve something, there is a rare blue flower, that grows on the eastern slopes. Pick one of these flowers. If you can carry it to the top of the mountain… you may find what you were looking for in the first place

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Old 12-04-2012, 02:16 AM   #771
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

I really like the sequence of Bruce returning to the batcave in The Bat, especially these comments.

Quote:
Alfred: Aren't the police supposed to be investigating them?
Bruce Wayne: They don't have the tools to analyze it.
Alfred: They would if you gave them to them.
Bruce Wayne: One man's tool is another man's weapon.
Alfred: In your mind, perhaps. But there aren't many things you can't turn into a weapon.
Bruce Wayne: Alfred, enough! The police weren't getting it done.
Pure Batman dialogue, justifying his solo war on crime.

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Old 12-04-2012, 02:19 AM   #772
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

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I remember craigdbfan making this connection a long time ago:

]

“If you are bored of brawling with thieves and want to achieve something, there is a rare blue flower, that grows on the eastern slopes. Pick one of these flowers. If you can carry it to the top of the mountain… you may find what you were looking for in the first place
Awesome find there kvz. Love that connection between the flower and Selina.

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Old 12-04-2012, 02:20 AM   #773
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

The "Alfred, enough!" surprised me when I first saw it. He's had it.

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Old 12-04-2012, 02:22 AM   #774
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I really like the sequence of Bruce returning to the batcave in The Bat, especially these comments.

Pure Batman dialogue, justifying his solo war on crime.
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The "Alfred, enough!" surprised me when I first saw it. He's had it.
He was being super rude to poor old Alfred.

Alfred got the last laugh by dropping the Rachel bombshell on him. Wayne's bravado goes down real quick after that.

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Old 12-04-2012, 02:23 AM   #775
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Default Re: Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Holy crap the blue dress and the flower make a lot of sense.

And Bruce pretty much was sick of Alfred's **** in that Batcave scene.

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