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Old 07-15-2012, 10:30 PM   #151
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Originally Posted by spideymouse View Post
This is what Marvel Studios Co-President Louis D'Esposito had to say about Black Panther, which kind of pisses me off:
What pisses me off is that he had just finished talking about how Guardians of the Galaxy is a great concept and of course we now know that that is what MS will be tackling next... So they can create the world of a group of outer space superheroes from the future including a talking raccoon that shoots guns the size of his body, but it's hard to create an Earth-based superhero who's the king of a country that you've indirectly referenced twice in your previous films? I call foul.

Anyway, I really would love to see BP in 2015 if they decide to extend Phase II.
I wonder if by "difficult" he meant difficult to make without appearing racist.

The concept of Wakanda is that of an African culture that advanced technologically without Western influence. I remember seeing an Earth's mightiest heroes episode where a Wakandan soldier shot down a Quinn Jet with a spear-laser. Even though it's "advanced", that's one step away from a watermelon grenade in terms of racist, stereotypical portrayal.

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Old 07-15-2012, 10:31 PM   #152
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Originally Posted by spideymouse View Post
This is what Marvel Studios Co-President Louis D'Esposito had to say about Black Panther, which kind of pisses me off:
What pisses me off is that he had just finished talking about how Guardians of the Galaxy is a great concept and of course we now know that that is what MS will be tackling next... So they can create the world of a group of outer space superheroes from the future including a talking raccoon that shoots guns the size of his body, but it's hard to create an Earth-based superhero who's the king of a country that you've indirectly referenced twice in your previous films? I call foul.

Anyway, I really would love to see BP in 2015 if they decide to extend Phase II.
yeah, that's just bs imo.. i wouldn't read to far into it. Hell.. we created asgard

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Old 07-15-2012, 10:41 PM   #153
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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I wonder if by "difficult" he meant difficult to make without appearing racist.

The concept of Wakanda is that of an African culture that advanced technologically without Western influence. I remember seeing an Earth's mightiest heroes episode where a Wakandan soldier shot down a Quinn Jet with a spear-laser. Even though it's "advanced", that's one step away from a watermelon grenade in terms of racist, stereotypical portrayal.
How can BP be racist? Unless they think that having a black advanced culture is now racist, but then if they have an undeveloped one, that's pretty much portraying them like tribal people or slaves, which could also be racist. I don't see why a spear laser is racist either, unless they're calling a spear a racist weapon. Why does it even have to be a spear anyway?

The way things get overly PC, soon we won't be able to have any black actors in any movies for fear of being racist, but then the black actors are going to complain that there aren't any roles for them because they've all been written out of movies.

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Old 07-15-2012, 10:47 PM   #154
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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How can BP be racist? Unless they think that having a black advanced culture is now racist, but then if they have an undeveloped one, that's pretty much portraying them like tribal people or slaves, which could also be racist. I don't see why a spear laser is racist either, unless they're calling a spear a racist weapon. Why does it even have to be a spear anyway?

The way things get overly PC, soon we won't be able to have any black actors in any movies for fear of being racist, but then the black actors are going to complain that there aren't any roles for them because they've all been written out of movies.
Perhaps they're waiting to find the right director with an outstanding vision for this movie. Without that and a great script, this movie won't work.

I'm also not quite sure why he makes the Cap comparison only. I think BP has similarities to Thor and Iron Man too--his nobility as a warrior king and interesting dynamic with his father point straight to Thor, and he's just as much or more of a jerk (with comparable intelligence/scientific knowledge) as Tony Stark.


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Old 07-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #155
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Black panther isnt as jerky as tony stark from what ive read

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:02 PM   #156
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

I honestly think they went with GOTG over BP because BP would be "solo origins film #38." GoTG offers a slight deviation from the typical solo film arc.

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:10 PM   #157
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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How can BP be racist? Unless they think that having a black advanced culture is now racist, but then if they have an undeveloped one, that's pretty much portraying them like tribal people or slaves, which could also be racist. I don't see why a spear laser is racist either, unless they're calling a spear a racist weapon. Why does it even have to be a spear anyway?

The way things get overly PC, soon we won't be able to have any black actors in any movies for fear of being racist, but then the black actors are going to complain that there aren't any roles for them because they've all been written out of movies.

That's kind of the whole point....why did AEMH give a Wakandan soldier a "hi tech" spear instead of a hi tech gun? There's a definitely offensive racist term associated with those who toss spears, and I'm sure the Klan would be laughing their asses off if they saw that scene and recognized the unintended slur.

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:14 PM   #158
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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That's kind of the whole point....why did AEMH give a Wakandan soldier a "hi tech" spear instead of a hi tech gun? There's a definitely offensive racist term associated with those who toss spears, and I'm sure the Klan would be laughing their asses off if they saw that scene and recognized the unintended slur.
..... Because wakanda is also very very traditional as they are high tech.... It makes sense

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:18 PM   #159
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Yeah I'm not even remotely seeing the "spear = racist" connection. As spidey boy said, Wakanda is traditional, yet high tech. It completely makes sense within the context of the story
The only people who would find that offensive are people looking to be offended (which, unfortunately, describes a whole lot of people in this country).

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:21 PM   #160
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Yeah I'm not even remotely seeing the "spear = racist" connection. As spidey boy said, Wakanda is traditional, yet high tech. It completely makes sense within the context of the story
The only people who would find that offensive are people looking to be offended (which, unfortunately, describes a whole lot of people in this country).
Honestly it seems like the African American community has a deep appreciation for panther.. The majority of people who'd instantly be awkward and ironically label racism are probably whites....

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Old 07-15-2012, 11:22 PM   #161
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Another reason they might have chosen GOTG is because the script written by Nicole Perlman is apparently "incredible."

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:14 AM   #162
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Yeah I'm not even remotely seeing the "spear = racist" connection. As spidey boy said, Wakanda is traditional, yet high tech. It completely makes sense within the context of the story
The only people who would find that offensive are people looking to be offended (which, unfortunately, describes a whole lot of people in this country).
Does "traditional" have to mean low-tech? If you have advanced weapons technology --- e.g., beam weapons and the like --- are you more likely to put them on MODERN weapons like rifles and pistols, or would you prefer to go back to Stone Age weaponry to illustrate your "technological advancement?"

It's like shooting plasma grenades out of a slingshot, or a catapult. It's completely inefficient, it looks backward as hell, and it's just effin' stupid.

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:25 AM   #163
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Does "traditional" have to mean low-tech? If you have advanced weapons technology --- e.g., beam weapons and the like --- are you more likely to put them on MODERN weapons like rifles and pistols, or would you prefer to go back to Stone Age weaponry to illustrate your "technological advancement?"

It's like shooting plasma grenades out of a slingshot, or a catapult. It's completely inefficient, it looks backward as hell, and it's just effin' stupid.
so captain america's shield by that logic is outdated... why not use a forcefield? while your at it, why doesn't stark make a armor for all the avengers?

wakandans are exceptionally skilled at hand to hand combat and stealth. they don't need to be firing guns...

vibrainium emitting spears is hardly low tech...

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:29 AM   #164
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111 View Post
so captain america's shield by that logic is outdated... why not use a forcefield? while your at it, why doesn't stark make a armor for all the avengers?

wakandans are exceptionally skilled at hand to hand combat and stealth. they don't need to be firing guns...

vibrainium emitting spears is hardly low tech...
this discussion is the why Marvel is wary to make this film

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:52 AM   #165
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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this discussion is the why Marvel is wary to make this film
because they're not? and GotG they felt was further along first and better suited the over-all story of the MCU films leading up to Avengers 2? I mean... surely Thanos is going to be heavily included in that film...

I really wouldn't read into it too much

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Old 07-16-2012, 01:01 AM   #166
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Does "traditional" have to mean low-tech? If you have advanced weapons technology --- e.g., beam weapons and the like --- are you more likely to put them on MODERN weapons like rifles and pistols, or would you prefer to go back to Stone Age weaponry to illustrate your "technological advancement?"

It's like shooting plasma grenades out of a slingshot, or a catapult. It's completely inefficient, it looks backward as hell, and it's just effin' stupid.
There's nothing low-tech about spears with laser beams in them.
In the comics Wakanda is isolated from a vast majority of the world and has been so for centuries. You could easily chalk up the seemingly illogical choice of outfitting such advanced technology in outdated weapons by explaining how they hold close to the traditions and culture of their ancestors, just like in the comics, which I've heard no one until now deem as racist.
Not to mention the fact that there are multiple tribes around the world that still use spears. Granted they are not a part of the developed world, but they are isolated just as Wakanda is.
And you obviously wouldn't make their weapons inefficient. They'd be portrayed as handy, tactile weapons with sensible applications.
It's an amazingly simple and inoffensive concept that would work well on screen. It's a shame we live in such a politically correct country where something so mild has severe connotations for some people.


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Old 07-16-2012, 01:25 AM   #167
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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because they're not? and GotG they felt was further along first and better suited the over-all story of the MCU films leading up to Avengers 2? I mean... surely Thanos is going to be heavily included in that film...

I really wouldn't read into it too much
Even if Marvel isn't making Black Panther right now and he isn't in their Phase II plans, the question is why D'Esposito would make his comments about the difficulty of creating Black Panther's world, especially right after calling Guardians of the Galaxy (a team with a walking, talking, badass raccoon and a frickin' TREE) a great concept? I still call foul. Loose ball foul.

I'm not even thinking about racism. I just think it's a stupid response from him. Feige would've been much more excited to talk about BP even if they had no plans to make it at this point.

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Old 07-16-2012, 01:31 AM   #168
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Even if Marvel isn't making Black Panther right now and he isn't in their Phase II plans, the question is why D'Esposito would make his comments about the difficulty of creating Black Panther's world, especially right after calling Guardians of the Galaxy (a team with a walking, talking, badass raccoon and a frickin' TREE) a great concept? I still call foul. Loose ball foul.

I'm not even thinking about racism. I just think it's a stupid response from him. Feige would've been much more excited to talk about BP even if they had no plans to make it at this point.
It's either bs or like Thor, they just want to make it perfect.

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Old 07-16-2012, 01:44 AM   #169
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Look, I'm Black and all the "OMG! Racist!" stuff is so much ******** to me. If someone's mind jumps so quickly to an outdated racial slur at the sight of a spear, he ought to be examining the contents of his own mind and why that connection came so easily rather than projecting that onto the rest of society.


As for what the KKK and other racists will say about a Black Panther film, why should anyone care? Racists have already kicked up as much controversy as they could about Heimdall and Nick Fury, and the net result of their manufactured outrage was precisely nothing. If Marvel/Disney execs even entertains reservations about the ravings of bigots, much less allows business decisions to be dictated by fear of them, they are fools, plain and simple.

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Old 07-16-2012, 02:17 AM   #170
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Leave the Vibranium spears for their surprisingly effective ceremonial guard, make the rest of the country from people who have had contact with the outside world in the past century.

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Old 07-16-2012, 02:32 AM   #171
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Seeing as how Avengers 2 doesn't have a release date yet, I wouldn't count out Black Panther or one more Phase II movie just yet. I could see Panther (or Strange or whatever) being released in May 2015 with Avengers 2 in the late July spot.

With Harry Potter & Batman out of the way, Marvel seems to have claimed the late July spot. Next year The Wolverine has that spot & First Class 2 has it in 2014.

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Old 07-16-2012, 02:40 AM   #172
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Actually, if Avengers is released in 2015 and another movie is released too i think it will be a Hulk Sequel, Joss Whedon is really interested in that. If Black Panther was released it would be:
2015: Ant-Man/Hulk
2016: Black Panther/ Avengers 2

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Old 07-16-2012, 02:53 AM   #173
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

Fiege has already said if antman is released it'd be a third film. Marvels no longer holding onto the notion of only 2 films a year

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Old 07-16-2012, 06:43 AM   #174
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Fiege has already said if antman is released it'd be a third film. Marvels no longer holding onto the notion of only 2 films a year
That would be based on timing with Edgar Wright.

As for holding onto that notion, I think they are still looking for two movies per year to be the norm. In that same interview I quoted previously, D'Esposito mentioned how Marvel Studios as a production company is quite small in numbers, and since they produce and film everything pretty much in-house, there is a lot of work that the core of MS does on each and every movie. It sounds a lot like Pixar in this way. Their ability to do three movies in a year may be pretty limited to circumstance (Wright's Ant-Man would probably be an exception to the rule rather than setting a precedent), and their desire to make quality films trumps quantity.

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Old 07-16-2012, 08:37 AM   #175
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 1

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Look, I'm Black and all the "OMG! Racist!" stuff is so much ******** to me. If someone's mind jumps so quickly to an outdated racial slur at the sight of a spear, he ought to be examining the contents of his own mind and why that connection came so easily rather than projecting that onto the rest of society.


As for what the KKK and other racists will say about a Black Panther film, why should anyone care? Racists have already kicked up as much controversy as they could about Heimdall and Nick Fury, and the net result of their manufactured outrage was precisely nothing. If Marvel/Disney execs even entertains reservations about the ravings of bigots, much less allows business decisions to be dictated by fear of them, they are fools, plain and simple.
Exactly. I suppose if any blacks competed in the javelin event in the Olympic games (do they still have that event?) then everyone would be up in arms at the racist connotations? That sounds like people on this forum who saw racist undertones when Cap handed Fury some money, thinking he was "tipping the black" (when in fact he had lost a bet)

I think a spear with a laser looks decidely different to yet another gun. Perhaps that's why they picked it, to differentiate from making Wakanda yet another society using weapons everyone else has. Putting something high tech onto something you'd not expect (such as a traditionally low tech spear) gives it a new spin and makes it stand out. It's like having a hover version of a skateboard in BTTF2 instead of some other flying vehicle.

That's the fun of gadgets - changing things we know into something we don't expect. That's part of why Bond has these weapons disguised as everyday objects. I think that's all that was intended with the laser spear not any racial slur, and that's how I think most people would see it.

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