Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

[RIPCOVictims]

Fair enough...I agree that the themes/storyline of Rises does focus more on the development of Bruce Wayne's character than TDK, but I felt the execution of it just came across as rushed (i.e. time was needed to develop JGL's character, but it came at the expense of actual screentime for Bruce/Batman). TDK may not have had as much character development for Bruce/Batman, but unlike TDKR, it felt like he at least had a major, constant presence in the movie.

[Mob1423]

The way I see it, "The Dark Knight" is a marvelous piece of work, but it wasn't necessary. You can watch "Batman Begins" and understand 90% of "The Dark Knight Rises".

All you needed to know was the ending from "The Dark Knight" to fill in the missing information (they do mention in TDKR that Rachel is dead, it would've been a lot like mentioning Vicki Vale in "Batman Returns")

"The Dark Knight" may have brought in a lot more fans of Batman and the movies, but you'd never understand a lot of "The Dark Knight Rises" unless you watched "Batman Begins", which a lot of people didnt even know existed around the time "The Dark Knight" was released.

That's why "The Dark Knight" is great as a stand alone movie because it's a lot like Batman '89: You can drop in on Bruce Wayne as Batman already and still understand what's going on.

You might as well have called it "The Adventures of Batman" because while it may not add much to the trilogy, it's still a fantastic movie

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Mob1423

The way I see it, "The Dark Knight" is a marvelous piece of work, but it wasn't necessary. You can watch "Batman Begins" and understand 90% of "The Dark Knight Rises".

All you needed to know was the ending from "The Dark Knight" to fill in the missing information (they do mention in TDKR that Rachel is dead, it would've been a lot like mentioning Vicki Vale in "Batman Returns")

"The Dark Knight" may have brought in a lot more fans of Batman and the movies, but you'd never understand a lot of "The Dark Knight Rises" unless you watched "Batman Begins", which a lot of people didnt even know existed around the time "The Dark Knight" was released.

That's why "The Dark Knight" is great as a stand alone movie because it's a lot like Batman '89: You can drop in on Bruce Wayne as Batman already and still understand what's going on.

You might as well have called it "The Adventures of Batman" because while it may not add much to the trilogy, it's still a fantastic movie

I disagree. While BB and TDKR are clearly bookends and TDK works the best as standalone film in the trilogy, I don't think you can just throw it away.

It just wouldn't make sense to go from Batman Begins with Batman just starting his war on crime to all of a sudden 8 years later and he's retired. You need that middle chunk to connect the beginning and end.

Plus, everything that happened in TDK was a direct result of Bruce's decision to become Batman in BB. It's the "escalation" that was promised at the end of BB.

[VenomShock]

Frankly, I think all of them are solid enough to stand alone. Rises definitely has the weakness of being a conclusion and therefore constantly referencing events of the previous films, but it still seems self-contained enough to work alone and still be its own beast.

I mean, obviously Begins is the best standalone, that's what it was created as, the sequels were unexpected. Dark Knight stands alone too, although it's better to have that first chapter to give you better insight (plus things like Scarecrow appearing are little fan moments you only get from having seen the previous film).

[Anno_Domini]

Here's a question....why does it seem like TDKR has been receiving much more hate as of late? CBM.com has WAY more hate over TDKR and even the Dark Knight Trilogy as a whole now that Nolan's done with the trilogy. It's just sad to even check on the site now with ignorant trolls.

[VenomShock]

That site's always been full of lame-brained children that give comic-book fans the bad reputation we have to this day.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Mob1423

The way I see it, "The Dark Knight" is a marvelous piece of work, but it wasn't necessary. You can watch "Batman Begins" and understand 90% of "The Dark Knight Rises".

I couldn't disagree more. How can you truly understand and appreciate Bruce's deterioration, recluse behavior, and state of depression without having seen The Dark Knight? You have to watch TDK and see all Bruce had to endure to send him into this bad place. Everything Joker did to him. To Gotham. To Harvey. Killing Rachel. Turning Gotham against him. You cannot appreciate why Gotham holds Harvey Dent in such esteem, and why Batman felt it was necessary to take fall for his crimes unless you've watched TDK and seen Dent and what he did. You cannot truly understand and appreciate the situation with Rachel, her death, and the whole business with her letter without having seen TDK. Same with Gordon and his guilt over the Dent lie.

It's like relying on the dialogue of TDKR, which explains everything you need to know about the LOS, and not watching Batman Begins. You don't get a true appreciation for them unless you've seen what they did in Begins. You can understand who they are and what they were to Bruce based on it all being explained in dialogue, but you don't get a real appreciation and feel for their story and history with Bruce unless you've watched Begins.

Imagine going from Batman Begins, which ended on a Joker card, and Batman and Gordon on a hopeful note to save Gotham. Then you skip to TDKR. It's 8 years later, Gotham is suddenly cleaned up. They're praising this Harvey Dent guy. Rachel is dead. Batman is hated and hunted. Bruce is retired and in a sorry state. Alfred and Bruce fall out over some letter of Rachel's. Gordon is guilt ridden over keeping some lie about Harvey Dent. You can follow the story of TDKR by just being given the bare facts. But you can't really appreciate the depth of all of that unless you've seen TDK.

[Mob1423]

@ both BatLobsterRises and The Joker, you guys make some great points. You're right, it does all flow smoothly as a trilogy and I love it all

And Anno_Domini, that is very odd. I mean, The Dark Knight Trilogy isn't perfect, but it's better than most things I've seen lately. Maybe people had too many high expectations?

[joker1524]

I still don't understand the "TDK" doesn't feel like a Batman

[TheGuy]

TDK. A hero taking the fall for another's crime.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I couldn't disagree more. How can you truly understand and appreciate Bruce's deterioration, recluse behavior, and state of depression without having seen The Dark Knight? You have to watch TDK and see all Bruce had to endure to send him into this bad place. Everything Joker did to him. To Gotham. To Harvey. Killing Rachel. Turning Gotham against him. You cannot appreciate why Gotham holds Harvey Dent in such esteem, and why Batman felt it was necessary to take fall for his crimes unless you've watched TDK and seen Dent and what he did. You cannot truly understand and appreciate the situation with Rachel, her death, and the whole business with her letter without having seen TDK. Same with Gordon and his guilt over the Dent lie.

It's like relying on the dialogue of TDKR, which explains everything you need to know about the LOS, and not watching Batman Begins. You don't get a true appreciation for them unless you've seen what they did in Begins. You can understand who they are and what they were to Bruce based on it all being explained in dialogue, but you don't get a real appreciation and feel for their story and history with Bruce unless you've watched Begins.

Imagine going from Batman Begins, which ended on a Joker card, and Batman and Gordon on a hopeful note to save Gotham. Then you skip to TDKR. It's 8 years later, Gotham is suddenly cleaned up. They're praising this Harvey Dent guy. Rachel is dead. Batman is hated and hunted. Bruce is retired and in a sorry state. Alfred and Bruce fall out over some letter of Rachel's. Gordon is guilt ridden over keeping some lie about Harvey Dent. You can follow the story of TDKR by just being given the bare facts. But you can't really appreciate the depth of all of that unless you've seen TDK.

Exactly. There's not much more to say. It is one big story, each movie being a piece of the puzzle that connects together.

[Mob1423]

Originally Posted by AnneFan

Exactly. There's not much more to say. It is one big story, each movie being a piece of the puzzle that connects together.

I made a post earlier where I realized he was right and I thank him for making me realize how big of an impact TDK has on the trilogy as a whole

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by Mob1423

I made a post earlier where I realized he was right and I thank him for making me realize how big of an impact TDK has on the trilogy as a whole

Yeah, I saw that.

[theLegend]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I couldn't disagree more. How can you truly understand and appreciate Bruce's deterioration, recluse behavior, and state of depression without having seen The Dark Knight? You have to watch TDK and see all Bruce had to endure to send him into this bad place. Everything Joker did to him. To Gotham. To Harvey. Killing Rachel. Turning Gotham against him. You cannot appreciate why Gotham holds Harvey Dent in such esteem, and why Batman felt it was necessary to take fall for his crimes unless you've watched TDK and seen Dent and what he did. You cannot truly understand and appreciate the situation with Rachel, her death, and the whole business with her letter without having seen TDK. Same with Gordon and his guilt over the Dent lie.

It's like relying on the dialogue of TDKR, which explains everything you need to know about the LOS, and not watching Batman Begins. You don't get a true appreciation for them unless you've seen what they did in Begins. You can understand who they are and what they were to Bruce based on it all being explained in dialogue, but you don't get a real appreciation and feel for their story and history with Bruce unless you've watched Begins.

Imagine going from Batman Begins, which ended on a Joker card, and Batman and Gordon on a hopeful note to save Gotham. Then you skip to TDKR. It's 8 years later, Gotham is suddenly cleaned up. They're praising this Harvey Dent guy. Rachel is dead. Batman is hated and hunted. Bruce is retired and in a sorry state. Alfred and Bruce fall out over some letter of Rachel's. Gordon is guilt ridden over keeping some lie about Harvey Dent. You can follow the story of TDKR by just being given the bare facts. But you can't really appreciate the depth of all of that unless you've seen TDK.

Exactly.

The events of The Dark Knight is what MAKES the Batman the legend he is known as at the start of TDK Rises.

BEGINS is a personal journey, and not EVERYONE in Gotham knows of the Batman, or even that he saved the day with the monorail fiasco.

The Dark Knight events are extremely important. It's also the transition piece for Bruce that elevates him from his heroic VIGILANTE persona as "the Batman" to watchful protector, always willing to do what is right, even in the face of hate DARK KNIGHT.

It's an evolution of the character that is quite essential for RISES to even take place or have any meaning.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

TDK easily. It's the best put together film of the lot, has the best pacing, by far the best villain and plot. TDKR's does feature Bale's best performance by far and to it's credit it is the most comicbooky film of the trillogy and TDKR and BB don't lose Batman the way TDK does but they have too many other problems for my taste. I like all of the films but TDK is the crown jewl of the franchise.

[CJ]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I couldn't disagree more. How can you truly understand and appreciate Bruce's deterioration, recluse behavior, and state of depression without having seen The Dark Knight? You have to watch TDK and see all Bruce had to endure to send him into this bad place. Everything Joker did to him. To Gotham. To Harvey. Killing Rachel. Turning Gotham against him. You cannot appreciate why Gotham holds Harvey Dent in such esteem, and why Batman felt it was necessary to take fall for his crimes unless you've watched TDK and seen Dent and what he did. You cannot truly understand and appreciate the situation with Rachel, her death, and the whole business with her letter without having seen TDK. Same with Gordon and his guilt over the Dent lie.

It's like relying on the dialogue of TDKR, which explains everything you need to know about the LOS, and not watching Batman Begins. You don't get a true appreciation for them unless you've seen what they did in Begins. You can understand who they are and what they were to Bruce based on it all being explained in dialogue, but you don't get a real appreciation and feel for their story and history with Bruce unless you've watched Begins.

Imagine going from Batman Begins, which ended on a Joker card, and Batman and Gordon on a hopeful note to save Gotham. Then you skip to TDKR. It's 8 years later, Gotham is suddenly cleaned up. They're praising this Harvey Dent guy. Rachel is dead. Batman is hated and hunted. Bruce is retired and in a sorry state. Alfred and Bruce fall out over some letter of Rachel's. Gordon is guilt ridden over keeping some lie about Harvey Dent. You can follow the story of TDKR by just being given the bare facts. But you can't really appreciate the depth of all of that unless you've seen TDK.

Originally Posted by theLegend

Exactly.

The events of The Dark Knight is what MAKES the Batman the legend he is known as at the start of TDK Rises.

BEGINS is a personal journey, and not EVERYONE in Gotham knows of the Batman, or even that he saved the day with the monorail fiasco.

The Dark Knight events are extremely important. It's also the transition piece for Bruce that elevates him from his heroic VIGILANTE persona as "the Batman" to watchful protector, always willing to do what is right, even in the face of hate DARK KNIGHT.

It's an evolution of the character that is quite essential for RISES to even take place or have any meaning.

Great posts, The Joker & theLegend.

TDK is a masterpiece. The fact that it's currently in second place to a far inferior, boring, unintentionally funny and massively flawed film like TDKR, is mind-boggling.

[Mob1423]

Originally Posted by CJ

Great posts, The Joker & theLegend.

TDK is a masterpiece. The fact that it's currently in second place to a far inferior, boring unintentionally funny and massively flawed film like TDKR, is mind-boggling.

That's your opinion. TDK is not perfect, it had flaws. Obvious flaws at points, they all did. It's all about which chapter of The Dark Knight Legend you prefer...it's not like you're a professional critic and neither am I. The whole point of this trilogy wasn't to make one better than the rest. It's Batman's legend from Nolan's mind, it all flows smoothly as a story. Just because you degrade the movie with your opinion doesn't mean your opinion is correct

[CJ]

I'm sorry If I offended you. TDKR did have its moments, I was just immensely disappointed by it after TDK set the bar so high, and did find many flaws in the film.

But like you said, it's just my opinion.

[Mob1423]

Originally Posted by CJ

I'm sorry If I offended you. TDKR did have its moments, I was just immensely disappointed by it after TDK set the bar so high, and did find many flaws in the film.

But like you said, it's just my opinion.

Right. It is your opinion. And I agree, The Dark Knight is a fantastic movie, but it does have flaws as I said. Obvious flaws.

While you didn't offend me, I'm sure you may have offended those who did vote for TDKR over TDK. There's a reason they did that so how this suprises you actually surprises me. It came off as "Those people don't know what they're talking about, TDK blows it out the water completely, why on Earth would they think something as absurd as a movie being greater than TDK?"

Other people have opinions too

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by CJ

Great posts, The Joker & theLegend.

TDK is a masterpiece. The fact that it's currently in second place to a far inferior, boring, unintentionally funny and massively flawed film like TDKR, is mind-boggling.

So TDKR is Spiderman 3 now?

[CConn]

It's so mind-boggling when people don't agree with me.

I mean, what's wrong with them?

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Here's a question....why does it seem like TDKR has been receiving much more hate as of late? CBM.com has WAY more hate over TDKR and even the Dark Knight Trilogy as a whole now that Nolan's done with the trilogy. It's just sad to even check on the site now with ignorant trolls.

It's because people have nothing else to do.

All the ignorance comes from people who think eveyone shares their opinion. They don't think the film is good and it's not doing the numbers everyone expected so therefore it wasn't as well received by the public.

Here's the problem...

The public are not Batman fans. Most people who see these movies have never read a comic book. The public are not Nolan fans. Most peole who see these movies don't even know who the director is. They don't know these things and they don't care. They don't care about the message or the symbolism behind this trilogy. They don't spend hours thinking about these films. To them it's just a movie and they go to be entertained for 2 hours. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone here thinks that people in the public share their opinion, they need to get off the computer and go socialize.

Originally Posted by VenomShock

That site's always been full of lame-brained children that give comic-book fans the bad reputation we have to this day.

Totally agree with this.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by CConn

It's so mind-boggling when people don't agree with me.

I mean, what's wrong with them?

[Mob1423]

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

So TDKR is Spiderman 3 now?

Pretty much how most haters think of it now. When I went and saw all of Nolan's Batman movies opening day, I never analyzed them throughout it all when I sat in the theater. And I would say all of the villains and their casting were perfect, not just one.

I mean seriously, I'm sure a lot of people who went into TDKR saying how it cannot bear to live up to it's predecessor and so they nitpicked every single mini flaw and they come here and make a thread for each of them.

If I did that with TDK, there'd be lots of pointless mini threads.

People just suck the point out of enjoying a movie if you're going to sit there and analyze it. Movies are entertainment, not a science project.

It's different if you want to be a critic or something but most people here aren't

[BatLobsterRises]

The Dark Knight Rises will never be Spider-Man 3 no matter how hard its haters try. Just no.