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View Poll Results: Which is the best?
Batman Begins (2005) 64 18.50%
The Dark Knight (2008) 145 41.91%
The Dark Knight Rises (2012) 137 39.60%
Voters: 346. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:15 AM   #376
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

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Originally Posted by RIPCOVictims View Post
Great post. When I heard after Ledger's death that Nolan had in fact intended for him to return in the third movie, I remember being torn on whether or not they should even attempt to make a third one. On the one hand, I absolutely loved what Nolan had done with the first two movies and of course didn't want that universe to end. On the other hand, there was a big part of me that didn't want them to even embark on a third movie if they couldn't tell the story they had originally wanted to tell. I knew that the movie-goer in me would have been disappointed, but at the same time I had a lot of the same concerns you did about the constraints surrounding a third movie. And while TDKR is not all bad, I do feel that those constraints did ultimately hurt the movie.
Where did Nolan say this? I think you're going off rumor more than fact.

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That's a pretty easy one. The point was to bring the story to its conclusion. If Nolan didn't make it, someone else would have. They wouldn't have rebooted, as Bale and Oldman were contracted for 3 movies. We could've very well seen someone else's Batman 3 set in the Nolan-verse.

But the most obvious answer to your question is that Nolan himself thought he had a story worth telling that was different enough from what had come before to justify being made. And we all know Nolan is a slave to story. Just because the fanboy community is all over the place about TDKR doesn't mean Nolan himself isn't extremely proud of the film and trilogy as a whole.
Well said.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:18 AM   #377
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

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I didn't want to particularly see the L.O.S. again, or necessarily have them connected to Bane. But it is a logical reason to bring them back. Why would the L.O.S. just quit when Ra's was taken out? Why would they not seek retribution for Batman stopping them at the end of Batman Begins.
What I've been saying all along, the story wasn't what you wanted it to be.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:55 AM   #378
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Where did Nolan say this? I think you're going off rumor more than fact.
Perhaps it was rumor - maybe someone (yourself?) can fill me in on something I don't know. Obviously it was years ago, but I do vividly remember reading a story on a mainstream news site - yes, I know they are not always 100% accurate - that quoted Goyer (it was not Nolan, so you are correct in pointing that out) saying he would've returned. I'm not sure I have the time at this very moment to confirm whether my memory is correct, but a quick search does result in this video where Goyer answers the question at Comic-Con:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz6_vBAvLIA

Granted, he doesn't give an outright confirmation here, but given his answer/body language, what do you think the answer was? I know what I suspect.


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Old 08-21-2012, 03:25 AM   #379
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

It's close between the TDK and TDKR, but overall I think Rises is the best one. There are a few small issues with TDK, and Nolan just nailed in the finale. Hardy was great, as Bane, but Hathaway was basically perfect as Catwoman. Every scene she was in, she made it better. Like Heath in TDK, did. Batman Begins was a good movie, and imo better than just about every other superhero movie, but not up to the level of the later two.

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Old 08-21-2012, 08:31 AM   #380
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

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Agreed. Spider-Man 3 is far better.
If only Bane and Bats had started dancing at the end

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Old 08-21-2012, 08:39 AM   #381
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

The performances and ensemble drama make TDKR the best for me. Seen it seven times and it's just so enjoyable.

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:56 AM   #382
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Agreed. Spider-Man 3 is far better.
I am sure that even majority of Spider-Man fans don't think that Spider-man 3 is better than TDKR.


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Old 08-21-2012, 10:19 AM   #383
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

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Originally Posted by RIPCOVictims View Post
Perhaps it was rumor - maybe someone (yourself?) can fill me in on something I don't know. Obviously it was years ago, but I do vividly remember reading a story on a mainstream news site - yes, I know they are not always 100% accurate - that quoted Goyer (it was not Nolan, so you are correct in pointing that out) saying he would've returned. I'm not sure I have the time at this very moment to confirm whether my memory is correct, but a quick search does result in this video where Goyer answers the question at Comic-Con:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz6_vBAvLIA

Granted, he doesn't give an outright confirmation here, but given his answer/body language, what do you think the answer was? I know what I suspect.
Yes, you're right, it was a comment from Goyer. The problem is that Goyer also said that Two Face would be the main villain in the third film. Now the plan may have started out that way, but with the realistic direction that Nolan took, there is no way that Two Face could have survived long enough to be the villain. I also remember reading some where that "they", meaning Nolan and company, did everything that wanted to do with the Joker in TDK. Nolan likes to keep things fresh and I've always got the feeling that Goyer's involvement stopped at the end of Batman Begins.

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Old 08-21-2012, 12:14 PM   #384
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

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To me that is a little redundant as well.

The Joker is THE freak of Gotham.

Crane is a transition character. He's out for money, and he slowly descends into madness, but Joker is the first full on freak. Crime in Gotham's natural counter point to the impact of the Batman.

Sure there are other crazies, former paitents of Arkham that he employs no less. But with Heath Ledger's tragic passing, there was really no where else to go with the character.

I think they made Two Face way more believable and compelling in TDK. Turning him into "I'm going to rob the 2nd bank of Gotham on Febuary 2nd" type dude is extremely corny, and lame.

The mob was already crippled by the Batman, Gordon and Dent then the Joker dealt them the killing blow. So what other purpose would Dent serve in the story as Two Face? "Two Face" wasn't a freak, he was a psychological weapon used by the Joker.

To me the real problem is was TDK Rises even needed to be made? Besides WB obviously pressuring the Nolans given how great and how much money TDK made.

Anyone with half of brain knew there was no way it could EVER meet, let alone exceed the expectations set forth by its ground breaking predecessor.

And without Joker, you're losing a vital element that made it such a blockbuster. Two icons battling it out. Don't get me wrong, Nolan's Bane is awesome ... but he isn't iconic or popular enough a character.

Riddler? Story wise and thematic wise he's Joker lite. With less crazy, and way less compelling or dangerous.

Sometimes I still hold onto the opinion I had after TDK and before RISES, Nolan should've just left at his two films.

TDK is truly a "drop the mic" caliber film on Batman. As good as RISES was, and it is very good in spots. It still doesn't even sniff TDK in terms of importance, impact, and entertainment value.

If he left on that film, it would be the equivelent of MJ leaving ontop after that game winner in 1998 walking off with his 6th ring. Or if Muhammed Ali, Joe Montana, Brett Farve and several other iconic athletes never held on too long and lost the overall impact of what they had at their peak.

TDK Rises was always doomed from the start.

3rd movie curse.
No Heath Ledger Joker.
Following the success of The Dark Knight.

No matter how good, it was bound to be disappointing. IMO it shouldn't have even been made. Not to mention at times on this film, I felt Nolan was merely going through the motions.

Catwoman
The Bat
The magical body recovery of Bruce Wayne (knee and vertabrae protruding back)

All "jump the shark" type moments in a franchise that up until that point was very grounded, even with some fantastical things that happened through out both films. It's almost as if the Nolans threw away alot of their own internal logic and believability in this film.

You can tell watching this film given how bloated it is with ideas that in some cases aren't fully realized. And the introduction of many characters for a third film ... Jonah and Chris were struggling MIGHTILY to come up with something that could be as entertaining as TDK.

BEGINS was good, TDK was instant cinematic greatness. Nolan loves to raise the bar. I think with all he did in TDK, he set the bar too high for himself, without the proper tools to re reach that height with Ledger never being able to reprise his iconic role as the Joker.
I couldn't disagree more. Just because you think TDKR doesn't stand a chance against it predecessor, therefore it shouldn't have been even made, that doesn't make it valid for everybody. As I look at the poll I see that TDKR is still winning. So apparently there are plenty of people who not only loved it but even consider it superior to TDK. I know I do.

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Old 08-21-2012, 12:23 PM   #385
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

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To me that is a little redundant as well.

The Joker is THE freak of Gotham.

Crane is a transition character. He's out for money, and he slowly descends into madness, but Joker is the first full on freak. Crime in Gotham's natural counter point to the impact of the Batman.

Sure there are other crazies, former paitents of Arkham that he employs no less. But with Heath Ledger's tragic passing, there was really no where else to go with the character.

I think they made Two Face way more believable and compelling in TDK. Turning him into "I'm going to rob the 2nd bank of Gotham on Febuary 2nd" type dude is extremely corny, and lame.

The mob was already crippled by the Batman, Gordon and Dent then the Joker dealt them the killing blow. So what other purpose would Dent serve in the story as Two Face? "Two Face" wasn't a freak, he was a psychological weapon used by the Joker.

To me the real problem is was TDK Rises even needed to be made? Besides WB obviously pressuring the Nolans given how great and how much money TDK made.

Anyone with half of brain knew there was no way it could EVER meet, let alone exceed the expectations set forth by its ground breaking predecessor.

And without Joker, you're losing a vital element that made it such a blockbuster. Two icons battling it out. Don't get me wrong, Nolan's Bane is awesome ... but he isn't iconic or popular enough a character.

Riddler? Story wise and thematic wise he's Joker lite. With less crazy, and way less compelling or dangerous.

Sometimes I still hold onto the opinion I had after TDK and before RISES, Nolan should've just left at his two films.

TDK is truly a "drop the mic" caliber film on Batman. As good as RISES was, and it is very good in spots. It still doesn't even sniff TDK in terms of importance, impact, and entertainment value.

If he left on that film, it would be the equivelent of MJ leaving ontop after that game winner in 1998 walking off with his 6th ring. Or if Muhammed Ali, Joe Montana, Brett Farve and several other iconic athletes never held on too long and lost the overall impact of what they had at their peak.

TDK Rises was always doomed from the start.

3rd movie curse.
No Heath Ledger Joker.
Following the success of The Dark Knight.

No matter how good, it was bound to be disappointing. IMO it shouldn't have even been made. Not to mention at times on this film, I felt Nolan was merely going through the motions.

Catwoman
The Bat
The magical body recovery of Bruce Wayne (knee and vertabrae protruding back)

All "jump the shark" type moments in a franchise that up until that point was very grounded, even with some fantastical things that happened through out both films. It's almost as if the Nolans threw away alot of their own internal logic and believability in this film.

You can tell watching this film given how bloated it is with ideas that in some cases aren't fully realized. And the introduction of many characters for a third film ... Jonah and Chris were struggling MIGHTILY to come up with something that could be as entertaining as TDK.

BEGINS was good, TDK was instant cinematic greatness. Nolan loves to raise the bar. I think with all he did in TDK, he set the bar too high for himself, without the proper tools to re reach that height with Ledger never being able to reprise his iconic role as the Joker.
I couldn't agree more. Best post in the thread.

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Old 08-21-2012, 12:26 PM   #386
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Since TDKR has many nods to comics, I think that Goyer contributed heavily but Nolan is the one who steers the story.

I think that their approach would be decided in a meeting between Chris Nolan, Jonathan Nolan and David Goyer to create a basic framework for the story and then proceed from there.

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Old 08-21-2012, 12:59 PM   #387
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

TDKR shouldn't have been made...because one guy didn't like it

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:07 PM   #388
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TDKR shouldn't have been made...because one guy didn't like it
Let me Quote Alex Logan -

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:20 PM   #389
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TDKR shouldn't have been made...because one guy didn't like it
Yeah, I just can't fathom that one at all. Even if I thought Nolan had failed, which I don't, I'd still respect him more for giving it an honest go than I would have if he backed down from a challenge and left the film in somebody else's hands.

It's one thing to walk away on top. It's another to walk away when something isn't finished. And to me, walking away after TDKR is still walking away on top, regardless of whether one thinks it's better than TDK or not.

People talk about the trilogy curse. Well, to me if Nolan only made two films it would be all about the Batman curse, where no director manages to get to their third film. Just to be the first person to helm 3 Bat-films and tell a complete beginning to end story about a superhero...yeah, I'd say that's a worthwhile endeavor.

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:57 PM   #390
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I love how one guy says "in my opinion Nolan shoulda left after two movies", and people jump on him acting as if he said his opinion was absolute fact.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:17 PM   #391
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

Batman Begins all the way. This was the first and only movie that really felt like a comic book movie. This is mostly because it is the first in the series. We got to see Bruce's training and his road to Batman. When the sequels came, Nolan really made the series his own. By the end of TDKR, (These were entertaining films, I know) Batman was completely different from the Batman we know and love.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:19 PM   #392
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The more I watch TDKR the more I'm starting to realize its ranks as one of my favorite movies of all time. It may not reach the great heights of TDK's taut script but it gets better with every view and contains some of my favorite scenes/moments of the whole trilogy including the finest Bale performance as Bats. This one ages like a fine wine and Bane is such an original and amazing villain fitting perfectly alongside Joker. Personally I don't think including Joker would've made TDKR any better of a film... He belonged in TDK.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:23 PM   #393
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Default Re: Fear. Chaos. Pain. Vote for your favorite Nolan Batfilm!

You know if you look closely, Gotham is actually a state in TDKR. There is a Gotham license plate.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:29 PM   #394
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I love how one guy says "in my opinion Nolan shoulda left after two movies", and people jump on him acting as if he said his opinion was absolute fact.
It's a fact for him. Saying a movie shouldn't have been made because he dislikes it is quite strange. One thing is an having an opinion about it (which i completely disagree) , other its saying it shouldn't exist....

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:34 PM   #395
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It's a fact for him. Saying a movie shouldn't have been made because he dislikes it is quite strange. One thing is an having an opinion about it (which i completely disagree) , other its saying it shouldn't exist....
For lots of people, there are movies that shouldnt exist. People are just jumping on him because he's talking about TDKR. If he said Batman and Robin shouldnt exist, people wouldnt have said a thing.

People take way too much stock in someone else's opinion around here...

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:41 PM   #396
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For lots of people, there are movies that shouldnt exist. People are just jumping on him because he's talking about TDKR. If he said Batman and Robin shouldnt exist, people wouldnt have said a thing.

People take way too much stock in someone else's opinion around here...
Actually I would say if Batman and Robin didn't exist, we'd never have the Nolan series.

Don't question the universe, yo.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:41 PM   #397
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For lots of people, there are movies that shouldnt exist. People are just jumping on him because he's talking about TDKR. If he said Batman and Robin shouldnt exist, people wouldnt have said a thing.
Exactly.

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]People take way too much stock in someone else's opinion around here...
*Cough* Demon Hunter *Cough*

I've never seen anyone as threatened by what other people think as that particular poster. Even thinks that every time someone posts a criticism they have a hidden agenda to change everyone elses opinion, too.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:45 PM   #398
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Batman and Robin is one of the most important comic book films ever made. If someone stated that it should have never existed, I would certainly counter by saying it absolutely did need to exist.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:47 PM   #399
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For lots of people, there are movies that shouldnt exist. People are just jumping on him because he's talking about TDKR. If he said Batman and Robin shouldnt exist, people wouldnt have said a thing.

People take way too much stock in someone else's opinion around here...
Well, maybe it's because those people are presenting their opinions in a very provocative way.
How long will I have to wait before somebody jumps on me if I proclaimed that Heath Ledger's Joker isn't good at all and shouldn't have been created in the first place?
People are protective of the things they love and that's natural.

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Old 08-21-2012, 02:57 PM   #400
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People are protective of the things they love and that's natural.
Its also become annoying.

The lot of you are too insecure in the things you like/dont like if you need to breathe down the necks of those who disagree with you.

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