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Old 07-23-2012, 01:31 PM   #276
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Bruce's journey as Batman comes to an end, but Nolan clearly says that the symbol of Batman will live on through Robin John Blake.
and there lays the problem, the movie is about batman, hes more then a symbol. If Nolan really had planned out this to be like this back in 03 then i would have never bothered with this trilogy. Im sorry but nolan could have really ended it a lot better and with more class. Im not a fan boy of either movie or director.... im a fan of the character and i feel as if he gave up, i feel let down seeing it unfold the way it did

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:31 PM   #277
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Jonny, you shouldn't be bothering with this guy.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:32 PM   #278
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Well you seem to be acting that way, if you're obtusely refusing to believe what's right in front of you.
Why does Blake rise the exact same way Bruce did earlier, in the final shot of the trilogy, if he is not about to become the Dark Knight? It would a meaningless finale to the trilogy, and Nolan would be letting himself down. The ONLY reason JGL would possibly be the final person we see as an audience, is if he is about to take up the mantle and become the Dark Knight. Bruce was the star of the trilogy, why would it not end on him, as the person we are closest to?
Batman's legacy isn't a closed thing, everyone accepts him as the hero of the city after his sacrifice, but him coming back doesn't tarnish this legacy, it proves he is an invincible and incorruptible symbol of good, that no matter what happens, will always exist in times of need. If you don't get that, I think you need to rewatch Batman Begins and pay more attention.


I'd argue the trilogy is as much about Gotham as it about Bruce, and the relationship between the man and his city. The term "Epic" wasn't thrown around for no reason. I know that nowadays it has become little more than a buzzword for something with massive scope, or merely as a synonym for 'awesome', but it has a far more specific meaning in the generic sense: it deals with the destination and fates of heroes and cities. Oh, a bit like Bats and Gotham then.

The ending here is about hope and the breaking of cycles; hope for Bruce to have a real life, to exist for his own sake as a person and not a shell. A chance to break the cycle of pain and fear that compel him to become the Batman. It's also about hope for Gotham. The hope that by his sacrificial gesture, Batman can exist eternally as a perennial symbol for good and justice. It's something Bruce underlines with his 'extra-testament' bequests. By leaving Blake the batcave, it's true to say that Bruce is passing that mantle on to him, but what Blake will become is not the Batman, but a representation of Batman the symbol, the legend.

This is again where the breaking of cycles comes into play. Bruce's Batman flirted constantly with the League's ideology, that there were some men who had an extraordinary force of will and incorruptible moral compass, whose duty it was to protect and shepherd the rest of society. It led to that lie he shared with Gordon. While Blake may have forgiven Gordon and understood why he did what he did, it is never implied that he condoned it. Blake hated the lie, and he represents the part of Gotham that has lost faith in old systems of government and control. His masked hero/batman/robin or whatever you wish to call it would be a very different creature to Batman indeed; not at all a creature of the shadows and the dark.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:33 PM   #279
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I know

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:36 PM   #280
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Default Re: Clearing up the ending of TDKR (MUST READ)

Well said Cactus, but it has far too many big words and too deep a meaning


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Old 07-23-2012, 01:36 PM   #281
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OK, if there were more than 1 "Bat" then why didnt Bane and his men liberate any of them when they stole Batmans precious armory? None of them could fly?

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:41 PM   #282
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Cos they were mostly all in prototype phase, I believe. Bruce got the fully finished one. And if not, its just a film lol.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:41 PM   #283
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OK, if there were more than 1 "Bat" then why didnt Bane and his men liberate any of them when they stole Batmans precious armory? None of them could fly?
I presume there were only two. The one Batman took, and the other, which was clearly an unfinished prototype. The autopilot fix was stated to be a "software" update, and so could have easily been applied to both of them.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:42 PM   #284
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He didn't. He told Blake that he needed to wear a mask to protect the people he cared about, but that's not the same as saying 'You need to create your own mask'.



Nolan gave JGL's character the full name of Robin John Blake to make it clear to the audience that the character was a homage to the various individuals to bear the mantle of Robin in the comics.



Batman eventually returning isn't going to invalidate his heroic actions in saving them from the bomb, nor will it invalidate the people of Gotham memorializing him with the statue.
I may have misheard that line, but you honestly think Nolan put in the name Robin for Blake as a homage and then means Blake to be Batman? That's absurd.

And yes him being around invalidates the ending. The whole reason Gotham can rebuild is they have a hero who made the ultimate sacrifice. If he comes back, that all undone. It's like finding out Jesus faked his death!

And Blake hated the dent lie, so no way is he gonna pretend to be Batman!

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:44 PM   #285
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Well said Cactus, but it has far too many big words and too deep a meaning

Cactus makes a compelling argument, and while I don't agree with it, it is solid. It doesn't prove that Batman is gone, it just proves that Blake has the potential to be a different type of protector.

You, on the other hand, resort to cheap digs because you can't articulate what you mean. Pathetic. Go back to your cave, troll.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #286
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I may have misheard that line, but you honestly think Nolan put in the name Robin for Blake as a homage and then means Blake to be Batman? That's
Seeing as Blakes real name is Robin, that surely shows he WON'T be Robin? Anyone could find out his real name via public records if he uses his real name as his guise. That makes no sense.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:46 PM   #287
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Cactus makes a compelling argument, and while I don't agree with it, it is solid. It doesn't prove that Batman is gone, it just proves that Blake has the potential to be a different type of protector.

You, on the other hand, resort to cheap digs because you can't articulate what you mean. Pathetic. Go back to your cave, troll.
If Blake is a different protector he is not Batman!! And Jonny is no troll.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:47 PM   #288
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Seeing as Blakes real name is Robin, that surely shows he WON'T be Robin? Anyone could find out his real name via public records if he uses his real name as his guise. That makes no sense.
There are lots of Robins. The arugment doesn't fly.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:50 PM   #289
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And yes him being around invalidates the ending. The whole reason Gotham can rebuild is they have a hero who made the ultimate sacrifice. If he comes back, that all undone. It's like finding out Jesus faked his death!
This x 1000000000.

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You, on the other hand, resort to cheap digs because you can't articulate what you mean. Pathetic. Go back to your cave, troll.
You just gave a cheap dig, yourself. You didn't agree with me so you said I basically must not like Batman. Grow up.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:50 PM   #290
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Default Re: Clearing up the ending of TDKR (MUST READ)

I think the Robin nod was a cheap way to give the character more credibility as Wayne's successor, seeing as the various Robins fit the apprentice archetype in the comics. Blake didn't really have the relationship that any of the Robins had with Bruce at all though...

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:53 PM   #291
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Cactus makes a compelling argument, and while I don't agree with it, it is solid. It doesn't prove that Batman is gone, it just proves that Blake has the potential to be a different type of protector.

You, on the other hand, resort to cheap digs because you can't articulate what you mean. Pathetic. Go back to your cave, troll.
I think we all need to let cooler heads prevail here.

I appreciate that you don't agree with me BigEggo, and that is always your choice. Nothing is more important than the personal connection and relationship we ourselves make with any given film.

On the other hand, I don't think throwing accusations of trolling around is nice or helpful. I've read this thread, and I also know Jonny as a poster in these forums, and I can tell you he's far from a troll. He's taken quite some abuse for expressing his view here, and has been wildly labelled as a 'Bale-head' and been called 'blind', essentially for not agreeing with other posters' opinions. I'm not trying to point fingers here but you yourself have been pretty blunt with him at times.

Maybe we should all take a little time out and come back a little less, passionate, about our opinions.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:54 PM   #292
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The problem with people understanding the ending arises because you see batman explode over the water. And no, there is no time in which he "escapes" the bat. I know this because I watched the movie twice and payed attention. The bomb scene goes like this -- Batman shoots a building and then Blake thinks the bomb has detonated and tells the kids to get down. However, one of the kids yells "No, it's Batman!" and then there is a shot of Batman inside the bat looking around and then the next shot is the bat flying over the water. Then it goes back to Blake looking at the bat and finally the bomb detonates.
So based on what was observed, Batman was inside the bat the entire time. But we know that Bruce Wayne survives. What does this mean?
Batman dies, Bruce Wayne lives.
----
The whole movie Christopher Nolan tries to show that Batman is a symbol, even an idea of pure goodness that anyone can believe in. Nolan directed the Prestige and Inception. Both of which were pretty mind boggling movies. So when people say "the ending isn't confusing, Batman survives" or something as such, then I tell you no, we are talking about Nolan here. It can't be just like that.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:55 PM   #293
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Im not suggesting there will be anymore Batman stories by Nolan. The point I'm making, is that Nolan's Batman, more than any other incarnation, is far more about him being a permanent symbol Gotham can rally behind. There would be no reason for so many of the characters to mention it so many times in the trilogy if the symbol died. Batman's story is over as far as Nolan telling it. But the way he told it it should be obvious that he always meant it to continue beyond what he shows us, that there will always be a Batman. Creating a new hero is just ridiculous, and out of keeping with the tone of Nolan's films.

In what way are Bruce and Blake different? Blake admitted he was just as angry as Bruce. They are the same type of person, both dedicated to good at all costs, Bruce is only darker because he suffered as part of his vocation. JGL would go through the same thing is his childhood friend and lifelong love was killed.
This light and dark business is utterly ridiculous, frankly.
No dude your basic premise is wrong. The point of the trilogy isn't Batman. The story Nolan was trying to tell wasn't about Batman beating up criminals, saving the day, defeating Joker and Bane and the end. The point of the story is Bruce Wayne's journey to come to a resolution about his father's death and his father's legacy. Along the way Bruce tries to do this by becoming Batman, among trying other things.

Considering all 3 movies as one long story not only is it perfectly legitimate that there is a new hero, there's no other way the movie could have ended. There's only 2 ways that Bruce could have left Gotham. One, he dies. Two he finds a successor to take his place. The entire trilogy is perfectly bookended. Batman begins when Ras tries to create Batman to be his successor. Batman ends when a new Batman rises to succeed Bruce. All 3 movies are Bruce trying to get a resolution to this question... how can Gotham be saved? and your resolution in this movie can only be understood in context of the trilogy.

In the first movie Bruce thinks he needs to be a symbol for Gotham, to get the people of Gotham to RISE for themselves (much like Bane does in the 3rd movie, same mistaken methods, different ends). But all that does is create freaks in hockey masks shooting up the city who don't truly have the will to protect the city. They are vigilantes (which Ducard warns Bruce about) not protectors. In the 2nd movie Bruce realizes symbols are dangerous, and tries to find a successor to appeal to Gotham's best instincts: a White Knight instead of a Dark Knight. It works to a degree (for example the ferry scene) but ultimately it fails, because such idealism is impossible. Finally in the 3rd movie Bruce comes to a resolution. He must do everything he can in his time then hand off the reigns to another man with the will to act, then live his life as his father did and as his father would have wanted him to.

What drives this resolution is the fact that Thomas Wayne was no less a hero to Gotham than Bruce was, in his own way. He was the hero that Gotham needed at the time... with his philanthropy for a dying city much like Bruce was the violent hero the city needed during his time. In this movie the resolution is that Bruce becomes a true successor to his father's work beyond he could have as merely the Batman He realizes what his father knew. It's not Bruce's job to save Gotham by himself, or to give his life for the city. It's to be a link in the chain, much as his father was, of heroes that Gotham needs. Blake is the next link in that chain. In the trilogy Bruce goes from a small boy to an older, broken down man. There's been a lot of criticism that there's so little "Batman" in this Batman movie. That's by design. This **** isn't really about Batman. He's not as important a character as Bruce in act 3 of this 3 act drama.

Blake is different from Bruce and there are hints in the movie that he's a sort of combination of both Bruce and Dent. For example Blake's heavyhanded repeated dislike for "masks" as well as his leadership/stewardship over the kids and his action in the daylight, opposite of Bruce. When the action goes down where is Blake? Is he kicking ass and taking names like Batman and Catwoman? No he's protecting the kids in his own way. Again hints from Nolan that Blake will be a different type of protector for Gotham from Bruce. By leaving the ending ambiguous... is he Batman? Robin? Nightwing? or just Blake? Nolan hints that Blake will in fact be whatever hero that Gotham needs post-Batman.

How can some regular joe cop become Batman? That's easy and that's answered in the first movie. Training is nothing. Will is everything. Don't agree? That's fine I don't agree with hovercrafts on city streets either. But Nolan makes the rules and that answer is definitely consistent in context of the logic of these movies.

The one good thing that the OP caught is the insinuation that the Bat signal will be USED AGAIN. I've talked to a lot of people that Bruce just left it to let Gordan know he's alive. No. He left it for Gordan to USE. We don't know who will show up when the light goes up (Batman, Blake or w/e) but a hero will appear.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:57 PM   #294
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You just gave a cheap dig, yourself. You didn't agree with me so you said I basically must not like Batman. Grow up.
I question anyone who has knowledge of Batmans history theorizing that a new hero would step into the role of Gothams protector. It just wouldn't happen. Hence why I said that.

You on the other hand, lost your cool and decided to start slinging insults about intelligence about, because you no longer cared to argue in a civil manner.

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:02 PM   #295
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Default Re: Clearing up the ending of TDKR (MUST READ)

Cactus is right, as usual lol. I did react harshly and for that I do apologise. But getting called a blind fanboy troll for stating my opinion is the most childish thing iv ever came across on these forums.

Batman died to inspire the city and become a legend, he won't be back as he has done his job. But Gotham needs help in its new era, and that help is Blake, most likely as Nightwing or whatever name you desire, except Batman.

edit - argue? I was wanting to discuss. You namecalled.

Just wouldn't happen...until now.

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:02 PM   #296
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If Blake is a different protector he is not Batman!! And Jonny is no troll.
Yeah he's not Batman. If he's "Batman" then there's no character growth and all 3 movies are pointless.

The "protector" of Gotham is whatever Gotham needs him to be. Obviously Blake's not just going to put on the cowl and the ppl of Gotham think he's Batman. They already built a statue for him they know he's dead. What Blake will do is take up Batman's mantle. If he's actually Robin or who semantically he'll be isn't important in the context of the movie so Nolan leaves it open ended so you can pretend he's whoever you'd like him to be.

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:04 PM   #297
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I question anyone who has knowledge of Batmans history theorizing that a new hero would step into the role of Gothams protector. It just wouldn't happen.
Isn't that what The Dark Knight is about? Bruce thinking that a white knight like Harvey Dent could replace Batman as Gotham's protector? By taking the blame for his killings, Bruce in a way even achieved it, posthumously, through the Harvey Dent Act.

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:24 PM   #298
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And yes him being around invalidates the ending. The whole reason Gotham can rebuild is they have a hero who made the ultimate sacrifice. If he comes back, that all undone. It's like finding out Jesus faked his death!
Well said. That's exactly how I feel.

I haven't been able to be on the forum as much I'd like to because I just moved into a new apartment and I don't have an internet connection yet. But is there a legitimate debate here between people who think Bruce died, like me, and those who think he's still alive?

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:29 PM   #299
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Bruce is alive and well in his new life with Selina..

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:34 PM   #300
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You're being sarcastic, I take it?

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