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Old 07-28-2012, 09:10 PM   #601
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Cat then sent a message to Jen: "It's over. I'm going to Italy."
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:43 PM   #602
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Bane told them the truth that Dent wasn't a hero but he lies about everything else. He's really sarcastic telling the people to RISE and how he's offering them freedom from oppression. Even this is just a mockery of Batman's hope in the first movie that he could be the symbol that made the people of Gotham RISE up and take back their city from the criminals. Bane is putting himself in Bruce's shoes as that symbol but twisting the message to bring more pain to Bruce.

The reason why he frees the prisoners isn't principle but tactics. The National Guard captain on the bridge laughs at the minion "how many men do you have son?" Pointing out rightly that they dont have the manpower to control the city or even prevent ppl from leaving. Bane arms the prisoners and tells them to join him, as a mercenary force. The bit about corruption is just nonsense that he's spewing for fun.



Yeah he keeps the city alive to torture Bruce and the entire bit about lifting oppression and corruption is the bit of sunlight for the people of Gotham as they're being held prisoner. It's false hope.

Keeping all the cops underground plays into that bit about torturing souls with false hope (since it's all going to blow none of that **** even matters TBH to Bane. he could kill them now or 5 months from now... it's all mathematical certainty to Bane) I understand the plot device and the logic in the movie but that part still seemed kinda dumb to me

For Talia it makes sense why she was so fixated on Bruce and Gotham. Just like Bruce was obsessive about avenging his father's death and taking his father's mission to save Gotham (Thomas Wayne had done it through charity and good works... and even given his life to the very people he was trying to save). There's a Nolan symmetry in Talia also being fixated on avenging her father's death and finishing his mission to destroy Gotham (the world's greatest city according to the movies)

But for Bane I have my own pet belief (totally not proven by any means) that the events with Ras in Batman Begins began shortly after he expelled Bane... the math matches up as far as timeline... to find a new successor. Bane sees himself as Ras successor and the League of Shadows so he has an obsessive hatred of Bruce and torturing more of the people Bruce failed to protect bring him more pleasure.
This. After the second viewing and catching Bane ignoring Talia's request and doing what he pleased I'm starting to really believe Bane was not even just Talia's "partner" or co-al Ghul if you will, I really think Bane had his own agenda, and Talia just jumped the boat for revenge.

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Old 07-28-2012, 11:46 PM   #603
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Perhaps a fan fiction follow on story can focus on a bitter Jen sneaking around Italy searching for Selina, also trying to kill Bruce for taking Selina away from her.

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Old 07-31-2012, 11:33 AM   #604
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I just saw TDKR and I'm not sure if Bruse is alive oe dead.. If you assume the Bat can travel at a max speed of 300 mph (being liberal here: the record speed of any helicopter is about 299 mph, but the Bat is towing the bomb and it was not designed for speed). With 5 seconds to go the Bat would travel less than 1/2 a mile (300mph/3600 sec per hour x 5 seconds). Bruce would have been caught in the 6 mile radius blast. To clear the blast in 5 seconds, the Bat had to fly an improbable 3000mph! BUT did you count flight time, from the bridge into the bay? At a speed of .08 miles per second (300mph) Bruce would need to be flying for at least 75 seconds just to clear the city! If you check the flight time in the movie, from what I recall after seeing it just once, it’s nowhere near the time needed. So there is some movie magic happening here… In addition, just because 5 seconds was shown, you assumed Bruce was still flying the Bat… what about an escape system similar to what was used in The Dark Knight after the Tumbler, aka: “bat mobile” is destroyed. Seems to me a similar design would have been used, but not shown…????

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Old 07-31-2012, 01:13 PM   #605
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All the people going, "It wasn't confusing at all! You're just stupid!" need to stop being so condescending. The ending clearly DID confuse people. Just admitting that the movie wasn't perfect doesn't mean it wasn't great. Nolan is actually not infallible. And in a lot of people's opinions, they SLIGHTLY fumbled the ending.

I know they were trying to trick us into thinking Batman was in the ship when it exploded, but for a series that has, to an extent, prided itself on some level of plausibility, this one just left people scratching their heads. Say he ejects at 30 seconds. So the Bat goes five miles in 30 seconds? Or he ejects into something that can move him farther away? It's POSSIBLE, just not super plausible, that's all. Granted, I've only seen it *gasp* once, but they could have edited that scene better.
Confusing is good if it makes you think!

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Old 07-31-2012, 02:22 PM   #606
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I just realized the true meaning of the ending, and the title of the movie.

Bruce left Blake with the coordinates to the cave, but what we didn't see was that all that was left in there was his porn collection. Hence the title,

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:00 AM   #607
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My only real problem with this movie overall is that the tone is decidedly less plausible and more comic-like than the previous two films. On one hand, it allowed for the best action of the trilogy, but at the same time, it doesn't really seem to "fit" in a sense.
Great points. That got me on a subconcious level as well. BEGINS and TDK were so grounded, that seeing all these costume characters, and a female kicking all kinds of ass in an uber macho and believable setting without the slightest bit of explanation was on some levels a bit jarring.

Also, Nolan from the start and it's touched on in the "Art of TDK Trilogy" book said he NEVER planned on Batman having a flying vehicle of any sort. Being it was less plausible I assume.

There was a little bit of "jump the shark" with this movie, that I even got a sense of before it came out. Bale still looks fairly young, but he was being potrayed as a much older Bruce. The Bat, while totally cool ... was taking Batman's vehicles to a new level of comic book type feel.

It worked for me, but the slightly futuristic setting ... the film fits with the other two quite well, but on the other hand it also feels a bit different.

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:17 AM   #608
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Default Re: Clearing up the ending of TDKR (MUST READ)

It felt different but no more different than TDK felt from BB in my opinion. The change from Begins to Dark Knight was actually the most jarring to me in terms of tone and style.

TDKR was the most comic booky in some ways, but I felt it earned that after spending so much time grounding everything in the first two. At this point, we get that there's a heightened logic behind things and we're already in tune with the "rhythms" of the world, so I'm glad they just let certain things be (like Catwoman's gear) and left some stuff to the imagination this time. It allowed for some fun moments without ever getting too campy.

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:23 AM   #609
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The change from Begins to Dark Knight was actually the most jarring to me in terms of tone and style.
Really? I felt it was the natural transition. I knew Nolan was going to take what worked best in BEGINS and go full bore in the next installment.

Plus the slow transition with Crane, and the use of the suit from BEGINS and its story explanation for being changed created a nice ease of transition for me, personally.

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TDKR was the most comic booky in some ways
In some superficial ways it is ... but it's not.

The 1st half of the film is very TDK esque in terms of tone.

After the Batman gets broken, it u-turns and heads back to the more comic book roots of Batman Begins, but does so in a more subtle and IMO classier way.

BEGINS is the most "comic booky" of the three because of the genre of film that movie is structured to be.

BEGINS - Superhero Film
The Dark Knight - Crime Drama Film
The Dark Knight Rises - Disaster / War Film

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so I'm glad they just let certain things be (like Catwoman's gear) and left some stuff to the imagination this time. It allowed for some fun moments without ever getting too campy
Well that's why elements are so jarring compared to the first two films. Nolan took the time to explain everything in interestng detail, breaking down typical superhero myth and showing what these people would be in the real world with functioning plausibility. But there is so much ground to cover in this script ... they didn't even have time to go into such things like Selina and her skilled fighting / gadgets ... and even cut scenes like Bane training and the origins of his mask, etc.

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:59 AM   #610
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Really? I felt it was the natural transition. I knew Nolan was going to take what worked best in BEGINS and go full bore in the next installment.

Plus the slow transition with Crane, and the use of the suit from BEGINS and its story explanation for being changed created a nice ease of transition for me, personally.


In some superficial ways it is ... but it's not.

The 1st half of the film is very TDK esque in terms of tone.

After the Batman gets broken, it u-turns and heads back to the more comic book roots of Batman Begins, but does so in a more subtle and IMO classier way.

BEGINS is the most "comic booky" of the three because of the genre of film that movie is structured to be.

BEGINS - Superhero Film
The Dark Knight - Crime Drama Film
The Dark Knight Rises - Disaster / War Film


Well that's why elements are so jarring compared to the first two films. Nolan took the time to explain everything in interestng detail, breaking down typical superhero myth and showing what these people would be in the real world with functioning plausibility. But there is so much ground to cover in this script ... they didn't even have time to go into such things like Selina and her skilled fighting / gadgets ... and even cut scenes like Bane training and the origins of his mask, etc.
Some good points there. I didn't mean jarring in a bad way. It very boldly ventured from the superhero film into the genre of the crime saga, and I loved that. There is connective tissue there, but the first time you see that bank heist...I just instantly felt like it was using different cinematic language than the first film. So in a sense TDK, by not rehashing Begins, established the mold of each film in the series being its own entity. I also agree that the first half of TDKR feels more like TDK...it develops into its own beast more as it goes along.

I felt Begins was really the movie that did the most of the heavy-lifting in terms of explaining things. I always felt the philosophy with this series was that if they spent time explaining some things, we'd be more willing to go along for the ride and buy into the overall reality of everything. You're right though, this script had too much story to get bogged down in the explanation of every little detail.

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Old 08-15-2012, 09:31 PM   #611
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The 1st half of the film is very TDK esque in terms of tone.

After the Batman gets broken, it u-turns and heads back to the more comic book roots of Batman Begins, but does so in a more subtle and IMO classier way.

.
I agree. Aside from the Harvey Dent Day dinner @ Wayne Manor, the way it jumped from scene to scene with little story (not a bad thing, more like rising action/tension building) like with the Bar scene, and how the SWAT team raids the place, very faced paced action, puts you right in without knowing much context. i loved it.

and ya, the entire prison scene was completely Batman Begins. rough, gritty, personal, Wayne with beard.

The last act is something else entirely

On a side note, throughout all the endings, the characters all face new change.

Begins Ending = New Beginnings (Bruce =Batman, Gordon = Lieutenant, Fox = CEO, etc)
TDK Ending = Sacrifice for the greater good/Bringing the best out of people
TDKR Ending = New beginnings for the characters (Bruce hanging up the cowl, Selina starting fresh, Blake retiring/taking up the mantle, etc.)

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Old 08-21-2012, 07:12 PM   #612
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Selena is NOT wearing the pearl necklace at the cafe. So enough of the "Alfred tracked them down" nonsense.
oh,really?

perhaps you need an ophthalmic examination

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:08 PM   #613
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Meanings of the title, The Dark Knight Rises

- Bruce RISES from being locked up in Wayne
- Bruce RISES from the pit/RISES to save the city
- Bruce RISES from the dead, after faking his death

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:09 PM   #614
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The statue rises

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:21 PM   #615
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Bruce rises when Selina's wearing the necklace opposite him at the cafe.

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:25 PM   #616
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Gordon rises from his hospital bed


Also, in the prologue, the CIA agent's stupidity rises to stratospheric levels

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Old 08-22-2012, 08:56 AM   #617
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I just read the first Post of this thread. I'm sorry but if nobody got all that by themselves by just watching the movie, then your pretty slow. it was all obvious right in front of you.

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Old 08-22-2012, 10:22 AM   #618
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I wouldn't call them slow. I would say a lot of people have a very passive attitude towards cinema. They dont care for subtext, thematic implications , characters motivations. Subtlety doesn't exist (and i dont even think thats the case with TDKR) It's all about the superficial layers of narratives structure. The little tricks. But even those might escape them.

The autpilot is brought like 4 times in the movie for no apparent reason. Its classic tool of narrative. If someone doesn't get that , he simply wasn't paying attention to the movie.

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Old 08-22-2012, 10:37 AM   #619
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I wouldn't call them slow. I would say a lot of people have a very passive attitude towards cinema. They dont care for subtext, thematic implications , characters motivations. Subtlety doesn't exist (and i dont even think thats the case with TDKR) It's all about the superficial layers of narratives structure. The little tricks. But even those might escape them.

The autpilot is brought like 4 times in the movie for no apparent reason. Its classic tool of narrative. If someone doesn't get that , he simply wasn't paying attention to the movie.
Exactly. Nolan made it flamingly obvious that Bruce was alive. There's no need for any further explanation.

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:19 PM   #620
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I've had a lot of friends ask me about what the deal was with the last shot of Batman in the cockpit before the bomb went off. I always said I figured it was just the film playing tricks on us with the chronology and showing a "flashback" to Batman right before he ejects within a safe distance of the blast.

I have a new theory now though:

What if The Bat's cockpit was an escape pod, and that escape pod could serve as a mini submarine? Pretty much just like Batman Forever. So the close-up shot of him in the cockpit could have been under water. This would also make for the perfect undetected escape to anywhere off the Gotham mainland (probably Wayne Manor, to ya know...pack and stuff).

Some might say it's too outrageous to assume something like that especially when Lucius never mentions anything about it in the film, but it's not like we saw him mention anything to Bruce about the Tumbler having an awesome motorcycle escape pod, so I say it's fair game. Outlandish I know, but it works for me

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:22 PM   #621
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^I think the scenario you mention in your first paragraph is more likely. ANd I've thought about that, that it was the film playing with us in how it presents the timing of that. I'm cool with that. Then again, I'm also cool with Batman escaping in the last possible second.

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Old 08-23-2012, 02:00 AM   #622
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It's funny how much of this stuff I missed the first time I saw the movie, but caught it the 2nd time through. Somehow I completely missed the 2 second shot of the GPS coordinates written on the piece of paper. I was wondering how Robin found the cave. Duh.

The one thing I'm still not sure of is where and why Blake went to pick up the duffel bag with the GPS coordinates in it. Was it willed to him by Bruce Wayne? Is that why he was at the reading of the will? They showed him walk in and smile as they read that the Wayne mansion was to be used by the children, but I was wondering why he was even at the reading of the will and how he would have known when/where it was to take place? So my thought was that he was there because something had been left for him - the coordinates.

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Old 08-23-2012, 04:18 AM   #623
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My take, (shot sequence may not be perfect...trying my best to remember):

-EXISTING SHOT (in film): Close Up Shot on Batman in cockpit...he is choosing to use the autopilot now that the Bat has safely cleared the city. He has roughly 70-80 seconds before the core blows.

-EXISTING SHOT: Extreme Wide Shot as the Bat soars deep into the horizon over the ocean. Batman ejects, but it is indiscernible at this camera distance.

-(Imagined cut scene): The cockpit seat has fired out of the Bat, and like an aerial Batpod, the seat itself breaks-down into a hang-glider/rocket pack like in this toy below, (but probably launching backward, not forward):




This Eurocopter X3 goes 267 mph:



And this Osprey has gone 346 mph:


Let's give Wayne Tech the benefit of the doubt and say the Bat can reach up to 360 mph, (it did outpace Tumbler missiles). The Bat clears 6 miles in a minute. With Batman going the OPPOSITE direction in his eject-seat-winged-rocket-pack, he reaches the coast unharmed.

-EXISTING SHOT: Close Up Shot on Blake scanning horizon. Camera pushing in on Blake.

-EXISTING SHOT: Close on core timer: 5 seconds...4 seconds...

-EXISTING SHOT: Extreme Wide Shot on horizon. The core detonates.

-(Imagined cut scene): Batman makes it to the Batcave safely. News reports on cave monitors: "Batman dies saving Gotham". Also: news footage of Bane's men apprehended by Gotham PD. Bruce absorbs the news reports...

-(Imagined cut scene): Watery eyed Selina frantically gathers belongings. She grips the Clean Slate drive. A knock at her door...



Let me know if I should stop or keep going...I have more, LOL


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Old 08-23-2012, 06:45 AM   #624
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I've had a lot of friends ask me about what the deal was with the last shot of Batman in the cockpit before the bomb went off. I always said I figured it was just the film playing tricks on us with the chronology and showing a "flashback" to Batman right before he ejects within a safe distance of the blast.

I have a new theory now though:

What if The Bat's cockpit was an escape pod, and that escape pod could serve as a mini submarine? Pretty much just like Batman Forever. So the close-up shot of him in the cockpit could have been under water. This would also make for the perfect undetected escape to anywhere off the Gotham mainland (probably Wayne Manor, to ya know...pack and stuff).

Some might say it's too outrageous to assume something like that especially when Lucius never mentions anything about it in the film, but it's not like we saw him mention anything to Bruce about the Tumbler having an awesome motorcycle escape pod, so I say it's fair game. Outlandish I know, but it works for me
I think that is possible

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Old 08-23-2012, 06:55 AM   #625
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I think that is possible
Agreed.

A cool possibility.

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