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Old 07-25-2012, 08:03 PM   #126
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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Yes he did. He knew Alfred was leaving, which is why he was holding back tears. He said "Goodbye, Alfred" for a reason.
Of course in the heat of the moment, emotions running high Bruce is going to say a final goodbye.

But at the same time, its one thing to say goodbye its another to come to the realization that that person actually left. Yes Bruce said goodbye, doesn't necessarily mean he believed Alfred would actually do it.

If he was completely confident in Alfred's decision to leave, he wouldn't be calling out to him the very next morning.

Akin it to you getting into a fight with your significant other and they say they leave. Sure in the heat of the moment you'll say goodbye and welcome them leaving.

Completely different feeling when you wake up in the morning and realize they actually did.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:11 PM   #127
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

Pretty sure he just woke up and forgot that Alfred had left.

Or...yet another awkwardly, incongruously handled plot element.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:12 PM   #128
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

I give up.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:19 PM   #129
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

Alfred had to leave. This isn't YOUR version of batman, it's NOLAN'S, and in this movie everyone who collaborated with batman pays the price for their "Deal with the devil" - and then they must rise from the ashes and learn a little something about who they really are. alfred loses bruce (the price for being complacent in and aiding batman's vigilantism) -> rises from this loss when he sees his dreams come true and knows that leaving bruce when he did was the right thing to do.

batman hanging up the cowl is essential to completing the character arch of bruce, and in order for him to understand why it was necessary to do that, alfred had to leave him.

he wasn't in it a lot, but michael caine's dialogue and acting was so emotional and personal that it seemed to take a much bigger presence in the film for me. and he is a central figure in the most pivotal scene in the movie - the actual reveal that bruce found a way to leave the batman and still go on living a happy life. he wasn't on screen for a long time, but his character's presence is felt throughout the movie.

the movie wasn't written to make viewers feel happy that they saw certain characters for a long enough amount of screen time (if it was we'd have had a lot more batman in the second act), it was written to tell a specific story-arc with very clear motifs/symbols carried through out the trilogy. this is just another example of why i'm glad nolan had such creative control on TDKR, because i like to see movies that are pure visions from a director writing with passion.

these are just my opinions though


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Old 07-25-2012, 08:21 PM   #130
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

I understand feeling that Alfred went back on his word that he'd never give up on Bruce when he left, but I also understand why that character made that decision. As he saw it, he had to make Bruce realize that he wasn't putting the suit back on because he felt it was truly necessary, he was putting it back on because he still needed it and had a bit of a death wish. Rachel's death, The Joker corrupting Harvey, the Dent Act, all these things added up and shattered Bruce; he didn't retire so much as he was crippled (literally and figuratively) into inaction, and Alfred was concerned that he was going back into action for the wrong reason and destroying himself. I don't think it's a problem, because I do feel it works dramatically, but it gives me an uneasy feeling. That uneasy feeling is just the shock of actually seeing him leave, actually go, to make his point.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:27 PM   #131
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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I don't think it's a problem, because I do feel it works dramatically, but it gives me an uneasy feeling. That uneasy feeling is just the shock of actually seeing him leave, actually go, to make his point.
To me, that is what makes it such good writing. The audience doesn't want to believe that Alfred could leave Batman. when it happens that makes it emotionally gripping, and stays true to the themes of this movie. i was a little worried we might see alfred die and not batman/bruce. that would have been a real shocker - wouldn't have allowed them to pull off the great closing scenes, but may have resonated and made the dramatic element of his departure and absence from the film more powerful.

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Old 07-25-2012, 08:51 PM   #132
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

I think Alfred leaving highlights his breaking point, which everyone has. He said he wouldn't give up on Bruce in the earlier films, but he felt he had gone as far as he could. Alfred left Bruce in 'Venom' when he lost himself to addiction and wouldn't listen.

This is an Alfred who would have gotten up every day for 8 years, 8 years of baggage when we see him in the movie, of Bruce sitting around and not living. Bruce then decides not to chase happiness but to don the cowl again.

Alfred wanted Bruce doing something, but not this. Not going backwards. If he wasn't being listened to, and a consensus wasn't being met (Bruce was set in his ways about this) he couldn't do anything other than mend his wounds. Or bury his body. Which he was over doing.

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Old 07-25-2012, 09:15 PM   #133
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

Alfred's "Nevah!" was tainted when he walked out on Bruce in this.

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Old 07-25-2012, 09:19 PM   #134
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

I do think there does comes a point where something changes. How long does somebody stay quiet and put up and shut up? What does it take for them to speak out and say what they want?

Alfred was happy to patch up Bruce's wounds 8 years ago, but he's getting older and doesn't want to do that any more. He wants to sip his coffee in an idyllic landscape. Will he ever get that chance if Bruce goes back to being Batman? It would certainly be pushed back further.

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Old 07-25-2012, 09:42 PM   #135
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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I do think there does comes a point where something changes. How long does somebody stay quiet and put up and shut up? What does it take for them to speak out and say what they want?

Alfred was happy to patch up Bruce's wounds 8 years ago, but he's getting older and doesn't want to do that any more. He wants to sip his coffee in an idyllic landscape. Will he ever get that chance if Bruce goes back to being Batman? It would certainly be pushed back further.
Exactly! The whole point was that this was a low point for Bruce in the film. Besides, if Alfred didn't leave, then people would be complaining about why didn't the League just kidnap Alfred. That would only muddy the plot up but if Alfred wasn't there, no questions.

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Old 07-25-2012, 10:12 PM   #136
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

Yeah...I hated Alfred leaving. Completely out of character and almost a disgrace to the character, imo. Where's the Alfred that says Ill never give up on you??????? I understand that Bruce needed a dramatic example to shake him out of apathy but something didn't feel right. Especially because then he disappears from the movie for 1 hour and a half...AMAZING WRITING!!


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Old 07-25-2012, 10:38 PM   #137
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

if you stick to the comic and the characters in the comics there is only so much you an do before regurgitating stories...

I think people need to give Nolan a break on this, if you are going to critique the Alfred leaving at least come up with a plausible, "better" scenario in your mind that would sere the same purpose.

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Old 07-25-2012, 10:41 PM   #138
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

How about Alfred helps him get back to Gotham? Simple as that. A final suit-up and goodbye to the person he cares the most.

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Old 07-25-2012, 10:47 PM   #139
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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How about Alfred helps him get back to Gotham? Simple as that. A final suit-up and goodbye to the person he cares the most.
that doesn't change Alfred leaving, nor is it easily explainable, do you think Bane left Bruce a cell phone just in case he got out?

i understand its not a scene people who are fans of Alfred cared for, but it was a good scene and had a purpose it wasnt just to make Alfred go away for awhile...

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Old 07-25-2012, 10:50 PM   #140
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

what i don't get is how batman could've been so physically damaged if he retired after 2 yrs of being batman.

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Old 07-25-2012, 10:51 PM   #141
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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what i don't get is how batman could've been so physically damaged if he retired after 2 yrs of being batman.
It is more about the years of inactivity.

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Old 07-25-2012, 10:52 PM   #142
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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what i don't get is how batman could've been so physically damaged if he retired after 2 yrs of being batman.
in real life doing that every night would add wear and tear to the body over time. i imagine they took some liberties with how much damage was done, but i think it is a realistic possibility that he was beaten up... i mean he was basically getting knifed and shot at on a regular basis... i'd imagine after awhile the psyche would take a hit and feel worse for the ware than it actually was as well.

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:07 PM   #143
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

my question, in the script it said the Agent shot the hostage and threw him out the plane, but in reality it looked like it was faked and the book said it was faked.... so what one was right?

also on that same scene, do you think Bane was calling the Agent's bluff, or thinking sadistically that it would be more fun to kill a man by throwing him out a plane than shooting him?

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:10 PM   #144
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

In the movie he shot the air, not their heads. IMO Bane was calling his bluff.

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:26 PM   #145
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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Pretty sure he just woke up and forgot that Alfred had left.

Or...yet another awkwardly, incongruously handled plot element.
Or he didn't actually think Alfred would leave him.

You ever get into a fight with a close family member, say things like they said, say you'll never talk again... And then the next day, one of you is just about over it but the other isn't?

It's kind of like that.

-R

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:27 PM   #146
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

^ Exactly.

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:33 PM   #147
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

Bruce Wayne Rises was such a good movie.

Did anyone else catch the Scar on Bruce's arm?
Or the fact that Batman was in the movie for maybe half an hour.

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:42 PM   #148
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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Or he didn't actually think Alfred would leave him.

You ever get into a fight with a close family member, say things like they said, say you'll never talk again... And then the next day, one of you is just about over it but the other isn't?

It's kind of like that.

-R
That's exactly how I saw it as well. Heck things might've been patched up if Alfred just waited for a day but I see why didn't.

They wanted to drive the point home that Bruce lost everything that day: Alfred, his wealth, seat the WE board, his car, etc.

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:48 PM   #149
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Default Re: TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

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Bruce Wayne Rises was such a good movie.

Did anyone else catch the Scar on Bruce's arm?
Or the fact that Batman was in the movie for maybe half an hour.
If Batman had a half hour of screentime, that's 10 minutes more than every other Batman movie.

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Old 07-25-2012, 11:54 PM   #150
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I think Alfred leaving highlights his breaking point, which everyone has. He said he wouldn't give up on Bruce in the earlier films, but he felt he had gone as far as he could. Alfred left Bruce in 'Venom' when he lost himself to addiction and wouldn't listen.

This is an Alfred who would have gotten up every day for 8 years, 8 years of baggage when we see him in the movie, of Bruce sitting around and not living. Bruce then decides not to chase happiness but to don the cowl again.

Alfred wanted Bruce doing something, but not this. Not going backwards. If he wasn't being listened to, and a consensus wasn't being met (Bruce was set in his ways about this) he couldn't do anything other than mend his wounds. Or bury his body. Which he was over doing.
or he realized that as long as he enabled him that he would continue to be Batman. He felt the only way to get him to stop before he killed himself was to leave and maybe that would force him to question going back into the fight. Tough Love.
He never gave up on him he just thought this was what he needed to do to force his hand.

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