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Old 01-01-2013, 02:23 PM   #451
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Originally Posted by Arc-Light View Post
Right if you don't think 250 is well off or rich..you need a head check...
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Originally Posted by samsnee View Post
It's not poor, it's upper middle class. It's not rich. My wife and I make a little less than $250 and have a 2 year old. We live in small 1-bedroom in Brooklyn and aren't struggling per se, but we never take vacation, don't but the newest i-whatever, and barely manage to put anything into savings outside of a 401k.

It really does depend on where you live.
So you think samsnee here needs a huge tax raise just because he isn't poor or struggling? He lives in a high living area, where I live I know a lot of families that it seems to me they take a vacation to Florida every year and they don't make 250+. So why is it that someone in New York who is making 250+ can't go on a vacation but someone living in a rural town making less has a iPhone and goes to Florida every year?

Dems need to take location into account before they say reps wont agree on anything.

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:27 PM   #452
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

Whether $250k/$450k/whatever is "rich" is a subjective, relative term. But no matter where you live, no matter how many kids you have, no matter how much college debt you have, that level of income is more than comfortable and well exceeds what the vast majority of Americans will ever dream of making. And people in that income bracket can more than afford to pay the tax rates they paid in the Clinton era.

I honestly don't understand why asking the top 1-2% of the country to pay the tax rates they paid a decade ago is somehow un-American, "anti-success" or "resentment." Nobody is "slamming people for being successful." It's a simple matter of helping to reduce the deficit by asking those who can afford it to pay a little more. No, it won't entirely solve the deficit problem, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. We can't get out of this hole by just slashing spending. Revenue needs to increase. Certain people in this country can afford to help us do that. So why not revert to a taxation system that worked well for us in the very recent past? Why is that seen as "sour grapes?"

And I honestly don't understand why people in the middle class (which, statistically speaking, covers most of us here) are so adamant about protecting the interests of people in the upper middle class/upper class. It baffles.

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:30 PM   #453
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

If someone is making 300+ I say they should pay more. I just see points to be made around the 250 mark cause depending on where you live you are not exactly pent house living yet.

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:39 PM   #454
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

You do realize that people own a business that makes $250k and then after all their costs, employee paychecks and benefits, etc...you don't make $250k.

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:41 PM   #455
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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If someone is making 300+ I say they should pay more. I just see points to be made around the 250 mark cause depending on where you live you are not exactly pent house living yet.
Maybe it's not "penthouse living", but even in Manhattan with 4 kids, you're by no means struggling.

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You do realize that people own a business that makes $250k and then after all their costs, employee paychecks and benefits, etc...you don't make $250k.
Yes, smart ass. Everyone knows that. But those small business owners can afford to pay the tax rates they paid a decade ago. Pass the cost on to your customers. It's really not that complex.

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:43 PM   #456
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Simple math and basic economics seems to have failed them. Guess this happens when you have a bunch of lawyers by trade (politicians) trying to make a budget.
Obama can't even pass a budget!!!

My challenge still stands on here...someone please cite me examples of when we net raised taxes on anyone during a recession to help get us out of a recession. There aren't even any credible economists anywhere that say raising taxes during a recession gets you out of a recession. Yet the drolls on the left continue to march to the drum of resentment. It's amazing to me.

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"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:45 PM   #457
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Yes, smart ass. Everyone knows that. But those small business owners can afford to pay the tax rates they paid a decade ago. Pass the cost on to your customers. It's really not that complex.
So you are for higher costs of goods during a recession and higher unemployment? You call me a smart ass and I would submit to the courts that you are on the opposite side of the spectrum on the scale of assdom.

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"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:48 PM   #458
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Originally Posted by Sun_Down View Post
Whether $250k/$450k/whatever is "rich" is a subjective, relative term. But no matter where you live, no matter how many kids you have, no matter how much college debt you have, that level of income is more than comfortable and well exceeds what the vast majority of Americans will ever dream of making. And people in that income bracket can more than afford to pay the tax rates they paid in the Clinton era.

I honestly don't understand why asking the top 1-2% of the country to pay the tax rates they paid a decade ago is somehow un-American, "anti-success" or "resentment." Nobody is "slamming people for being successful." It's a simple matter of helping to reduce the deficit by asking those who can afford it to pay a little more. No, it won't entirely solve the deficit problem, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. We can't get out of this hole by just slashing spending. Revenue needs to increase. Certain people in this country can afford to help us do that. So why not revert to a taxation system that worked well for us in the very recent past? Why is that seen as "sour grapes?"

And I honestly don't understand why people in the middle class (which, statistically speaking, covers most of us here) are so adamant about protecting the interests of people in the upper middle class/upper class. It baffles.
^ This guy's got it.


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Old 01-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #459
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Obama can't even pass a budget!!!

My challenge still stands on here...someone please cite me examples of when we net raised taxes on anyone during a recession to help get us out of a recession. There aren't even any credible economists anywhere that say raising taxes during a recession gets you out of a recession. Yet the drolls on the left continue to march to the drum of resentment. It's amazing to me.
... So how do we solve the problem, then?

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:53 PM   #460
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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So you are for higher costs of goods during a recession and higher unemployment? You call me a smart ass and I would submit to the courts that you are on the opposite side of the spectrum on the scale of assdom.
Wow, you really can spin, huh? Slightly higher cost of goods, spread out over thousands of consumers, won't hurt anyone a damn bit. Nor will slight tax increases on the top 1-2% of the income bracket.

We need to the reduce the deficit, and we cannot simply slash our way out of it. Asking the top 1-2% to pay the tax rates they paid a decade ago is nothing radical. What's your solution? Keep cutting taxes? Because that's worked so well. The Bush tax cuts were a major factor in our current recession.

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Old 01-01-2013, 02:59 PM   #461
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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... So how do we solve the problem, then?
Lower taxes and the government spend money correctly.

Those are each one thing Bush and Obama got wrong. Bush did right in lowering taxes back during the mid 2000s recession and it lead to full employment and higher government revenues. What he should have done once we were back in the right spot, is raise taxes back to Clinton era levels.

Obama then comes in and spends government money but he does so very recklessly and frivolously. He wasted a lot of money and he continues to do so.

Lower taxes and injection of funds into the economy is what every credible economist and history shows us has worked over and over again. I suggest lower tax rates (especially corporate tax rates) and fine tuned government spending. We need to cut wasteful spending and point it at our economy. But now, we are past that point. Bush never raised rates back up and Obama has wasted $4 trillion dollars (on the books). You know we have wasted a lot more than that.

Obama himself in 2009 said that raising taxes on anyone during a recession would be a bad thing. He even had the opportunity in 2010 to let the Bush tax cuts expire. He only is running this campaign of attack the rich as a way to get votes for his 2012 campaign. Now that the campaign is over, he is using it as a tool to take out Republicans so that the Democrats can gain more seats. It's a very obvious and pathetic political game where we, the people, are all losers.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:04 PM   #462
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Wow, you really can spin, huh? Slightly higher cost of goods, spread out over thousands of consumers, won't hurt anyone a damn bit. Nor will slight tax increases on the top 1-2% of the income bracket.

We need to the reduce the deficit, and we cannot simply slash our way out of it.
Higher costs of goods in a recession is a winner! We've got a winner here.

Reducing the deficits...the most pathetic line the left has been using lately. So we tax the rich. We net $60 billion a year in revenues from those evil, fat cat, living large, crooks of the rich people. Obama runs $1.2 trillion a year deficits.

Lets do the math!

$1.2 trillion yearly deficits - $60 billion in yearly tax revenue from the evil rich = $1.14 trillion yearly deficits. WE DID IT!




Taxing the rich ain't going to do crap for the deficits. It's a lot larger than that. First, we all need to pay taxes. Half this country pays NO income taxes. We spend recklessly. We have record high entitlement spending. And all that the left can come up with...is taxing the rich. The Sandy relief bill that passed the Senate negates anything we could get more of from the rich in taxes in 2013. So say goodbye to doing anything in 2013. Maybe 2014. Lets focus on 2014.

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:06 PM   #463
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

So unless the proposed course of action will completely solve the problem, it's not worth doing at all?

Oh, and the 47% line. Bravo. You realize that the "half the country" you're talking about is made up of children, seniors, students and soldiers over seas, right? Your ignorance is astounding. I'm out.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:11 PM   #464
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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So unless the proposed course of action will completely solve the problem, it's not worth doing at all?

Oh, and the 47% line. Bravo. You realize that the "half the country" you're talking about is made up of children, seniors, students and soldiers over seas, right? Your ignorance is astounding. I'm out.
I don't give a crap who it's comprised of. We all live in this country and we all have to pay something to keep it going. We are going to be $20 trillion in debt before Obama leaves office and you think that responsibility belongs to the rich to take care of?

Ignorance is astounding...our debt has passed our GDP and your only suggestion is getting $60 billion more a year from the rich.

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:12 PM   #465
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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You do realize that people own a business that makes $250k and then after all their costs, employee paychecks and benefits, etc...you don't make $250k.
Wouldn't employee paychecks and benefits count under costs it takes to run a business?

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:13 PM   #466
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Wouldn't employee paychecks and benefits count under costs it takes to run a business?
I was detailing the costs. These people think everyone is getting a $250k paycheck each year so why not tax them a little more?

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:15 PM   #467
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Wouldn't employee paychecks and benefits count under costs it takes to run a business?
They technically are but I think he was going for stuff like inventory, raw materials, and utilities in that term.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:19 PM   #468
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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They technically are but I think he was going for stuff like inventory, raw materials, and utilities in that term.
So say I own a store and:

I make 1.2M in sales
Pay 500k for stock
Pay 100k in misc things(such as renting the building and other fees)
Pay 200k in salary to employees

Do I get taxed on 400k(ie 1.2M - 500k - 100k -200k)

or do I get taxed on 600k(1.2M - 500k -100k)

I assume it would be 400k

Now let's do some creative accounting

My store makes 2M
Stock costs me 800k
Misc expenses 100k
Employees salaries and benefits(beside myself) cost me 500k

So basically after costs I am left with 600K, what i could do is pay myself a salary of 400k and leave 200k profit under the stores name, that way both get taxed under the lower tax rates. It should be pointed out since you are an employee of your own store you can also use benefits you get for yourself as a write off for the business.


Last edited by SV Fan; 01-01-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:20 PM   #469
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

What does $1 million have to do with $250k? You get taxed for your income. You get taxed for having employees. You get taxed when you buy goods to sell. You get taxed for the healthcare or now lack of healthcare you provide. You then get taxed by the state and local governments. In NY if Obama raises taxes on the rich, more than half of their income goes to taxes. More than half. That's ridiculous.

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:24 PM   #470
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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I don't give a crap who it's comprised of. We all live in this country and we all have to pay something to keep it going. We are going to be $20 trillion in debt before Obama leaves office and you think that responsibility belongs to the rich to take care of?

Ignorance is astounding...our debt has passed our GDP and your only suggestion is getting $60 billion more a year from the rich.
You should give a crap who its comprised of because last I checked children, out of work seniors, and disabled veterans cant pay income taxes nor should they have to so *****ing about them is pointless and and as far as im concerned any veteran who was severely injured in war doesn't owe the federal government a damn penny until they get the proper mental and health care.

I do agree tho we all do have to pay something so the ones who can pay the most should pay the most. That is only logical.

Another problem is the richest corporations like Walmart and McDonalds barely paying their employees enough to live on. Rather than only being concerned with profit lines they need to redistribute their profit better and be better to their employees.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:24 PM   #471
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Lower taxes and the government spend money correctly.

Those are each one thing Bush and Obama got wrong. Bush did right in lowering taxes back during the mid 2000s recession and it lead to full employment and higher government revenues. What he should have done once we were back in the right spot, is raise taxes back to Clinton era levels.

Obama then comes in and spends government money but he does so very recklessly and frivolously. He wasted a lot of money and he continues to do so.

Lower taxes and injection of funds into the economy is what every credible economist and history shows us has worked over and over again. I suggest lower tax rates (especially corporate tax rates) and fine tuned government spending. We need to cut wasteful spending and point it at our economy. But now, we are past that point. Bush never raised rates back up and Obama has wasted $4 trillion dollars (on the books). You know we have wasted a lot more than that.

Obama himself in 2009 said that raising taxes on anyone during a recession would be a bad thing. He even had the opportunity in 2010 to let the Bush tax cuts expire. He only is running this campaign of attack the rich as a way to get votes for his 2012 campaign. Now that the campaign is over, he is using it as a tool to take out Republicans so that the Democrats can gain more seats. It's a very obvious and pathetic political game where we, the people, are all losers.
It already fell apart in the first two words.

This deficit is unprecedented. We've never seen anything like it, and it could take 100 years to get out of it. We have to pay for it, and lowering taxes is going to make it a lot worse.

Taxes need to be raised. We should want that.

And I don't believe this for a second:

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:28 PM   #472
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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It already fell apart in the first two words.

This deficit is unprecedented. We've never seen anything like it, and it could take 100 years to get out of it. We have to pay for it, and lowering taxes is going to make it a lot worse.

Taxes need to be raised. We should want that.
Taxes should be raised I agree...but after we get out of this recession and on everybody. Again, taxing the rich isn't going to do anything to the debt. It's a drop in the bucket to the deficits. It won't have any affect on the debt and it will barely lower the deficits. If all we did was tax the rich, the debt would still continue to rise each year. We are on a path of going over the literal cliff. Taxing the rich will just barely slow the car down but we are still going to go over the cliff.

As much as I admire Clinton, he even added to the debt.

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:31 PM   #473
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

Also, deficits =/= debt. The deficit could be zero and we still add to the debt.

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"You can leave a penny, you can't take a penny. You can leave a penny anytime. You have to spend $10 to take a penny. Store policy."
"Since when has this been store policy?"
"Uh, since my boss made up the policy. You gonna pay? You're holding up my line of one other person. You can't afford your milk, step aside. What, daddy didn't give you enough milk money? Little baby gonna cry about it? Just step aside."
And that is how Uncle Ben dies.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:31 PM   #474
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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It already fell apart in the first two words.

This deficit is unprecedented. We've never seen anything like it, and it could take 100 years to get out of it. We have to pay for it, and lowering taxes is going to make it a lot worse.

Taxes need to be raised. We should want that.

And I don't believe this for a second:
This is what I keep getting into arguments with people about. We have spent way too much irresponsibly and taken in far less creating a ridiculous deficit and now everyone is screaming "fix it, fix it, fix it" and "No more taxes!" at the same time. It cant work. I dont want more taxes but I realize we need more taxes.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:32 PM   #475
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You get taxed for your income.
Yes

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You get taxed for having employees.
No because when you play employees that is an expense that you can write off

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Originally Posted by chaseter View Post
You get taxed when you buy goods to sell
Once again a writeoff to potential revenues your store makes(ie if you buy 1M of products and sell them for 2M, you only pay tax on 1M(or less when you factor in other expenses))

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaseter View Post
You get taxed for the healthcare or now lack of healthcare you provide.
Obamacare is a complete different subject that being said paying for peoples healthcare is a write off. Beyond that on a completely different note if Obama care cheapens how much people pay for healthcare like they claim it will, alot of companies stand to benefit by that who already provide health insurance(like I said though that is a completely different debate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaseter View Post
Taxes should be raised I agree...but after we get out of this recession and on everybody. Again, taxing the rich isn't going to do anything to the debt. It's a drop in the bucket to the deficits. It won't have any affect on the debt and it will barely lower the deficits. If all we did was tax the rich, the debt would still continue to rise each year. We are on a path of going over the literal cliff. Taxing the rich will just barely slow the car down but we are still going to go over the cliff.
I hate this argument(ie it will only have minimal impact so let's not do it). There is not 1 single thing you can do to fix the debt, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do them in combination with other things to try fix the debt.


Last edited by SV Fan; 01-01-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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