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Old 01-01-2013, 03:36 PM   #476
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
This is what I keep getting into arguments with people about. We have spent way too much irresponsibly and taken in far less creating a ridiculous deficit and now everyone is screaming "fix it, fix it, fix it" and "No more taxes!" at the same time. It cant work. I dont want more taxes but I realize we need more taxes.
Yup.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:37 PM   #477
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Yes



No because when you play employees that is an expense that you can write off



Once again a writeoff to potential revenues your store makes(ie if you buy 1M of products and sell them for 2M, you only pay tax on 1M(or less when you factor in other expenses))



Obamacare is a complete different subject that being said paying for peoples healthcare is a write off. Beyond that on a completely different note if Obama care cheapens how much people pay for healthcare like they claim it will, alot of companies stand to benefit by that who already provide health insurance(like I said though that is a completely different debate)
Income and revenue are two different things.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:39 PM   #478
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Income and revenue are two different things.
You can add profit to the list as well. You pay taxes on your profit not revenue

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:51 PM   #479
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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It already fell apart in the first two words.

This deficit is unprecedented. We've never seen anything like it, and it could take 100 years to get out of it. We have to pay for it, and lowering taxes is going to make it a lot worse.

Taxes need to be raised. We should want that.
No, not necessarily.

If lowering taxes increases the number of jobs and sales incomes, then tax revenues can go up, despite the drop in the rate.

The reason being is that, instead of taking capital out of the economy, you're allowing it to remain and multiply, thereby growing the economy, and total tax revenue, despite a lower tax rate.

Let's say we lower the tax rate on small businesses and it reduces tax revenue by a billion dollars. But, those companies can now afford to hire more employees and/or give employees more hours. Those employees now make more money, and therefore pay more taxes. If those extra taxes equal a billion dollars, then tax revenue is actually unchanged, but more people are employed and well off than before.

Which means those people are also going to buy more things. Which means those companies will see their revenues, and tax payouts, go up. And if those increases are large enough, they may hire more employees. Or at least increase demand for goods from their suppliers. Which makes the supplier's revenues and tax payouts go up.

When you let people and companies keep more of their money, you get a multiplier effect. So even if the tax rate decrease for those initial companies was short of the billion, the multiplier from the side-effects of that decrease can still bring the total tax revenue back to where it was. And it becomes a win-win.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:53 PM   #480
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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You can add profit to the list as well. You pay taxes on your profit not revenue

No, profit is what you have after taxes.

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:57 PM   #481
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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When you let people and companies keep more of their money, you get a multiplier effect. So even if the tax rate decrease for those initial companies was short of the billion, the multiplier from the side-effects of that decrease can still bring the total tax revenue back to where it was. And it becomes a win-win.
The main problem with this is I don't think giving a tax break to bigger companies(say like Wal-Mart) will help the economy in anyway. The Waltons will just take that cash and invest it in an island somewhere..

Chances are you will do more to stimulate the economy giving the middle class and lower tax breaks(ie people who will spend the money) while taxing richer people and investing money in jobs(say like infrastructure, police, teachers etc) so you have more people spending, then giving everybody a break letting the market dictate jobs. There is a certain point I don't think a tax break will make much difference to the economy(I would guess somewhere between 250k-1M)

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No, profit is what you have after taxes.
Fair enough, I was just trying to make a point(and maybe I read chaster wrong) that employee salaries have 0 effect on taxes(they are one of many things that reduces revenue to profit)


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Old 01-01-2013, 03:59 PM   #482
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

If there is one key to getting the debt under control, it is military spending. More than anything, the US needs to slash it. One thing that differentiates the US from all other countries, is the size of its military budget. I don't know why nobody sees this except a few...

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Old 01-01-2013, 03:59 PM   #483
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

Which is why I specifically said small businesses in the example.

If you really want to start driving up middle and lower class employment, start cutting taxes on small businesses so they can afford to stay in business and grow it.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:04 PM   #484
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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If there is one key to getting the debt under control, it is military spending. More than anything, the US needs to slash it. One thing that differentiates the US from all other countries, is the size of its military budget. I don't know why nobody sees this except a few...
I 100% agree with you on this. Sad thing is our 2 options are the party that wants to increase it and the party who is chickpoop to do anything about it in fear of looking weak and wants to keep it status quo

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If you really want to start driving up middle and lower class employment, start cutting taxes on small businesses so they can afford to stay in business and grow it.
Just out of curiosity what would you consider a "small business". There is many smaller business I would be all in favor giving a helping hand, and their is many small business that technically are small business but don't really need a break(mainly stuff like lawyer offices, financial companies, etc)

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:04 PM   #485
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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The main problem with this is I don't think giving a tax break to bigger companies(say like Wal-Mart) will help the economy in anyway. The Waltons will just take that cash and invest it in an island somewhere..

Chances are you will do more to stimulate the economy giving the middle class and lower tax breaks(ie people who will spend the money) while taxing richer people and investing money in jobs(say liek infrastructure, police, teachers etc) so you have more people spending, then giving everybody a break letting the market dictate jobs. There is a certain point I don't think a tax break will make much difference to the economy(I would guess somewhere between 250k-1M)
That's exactly right. Here in Canada they recently lowered corporate tax cuts. It did more to put money in rich people's bank accounts while inflating the public debt than it did to rejuvenate the economy.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:04 PM   #486
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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If there is one key to getting the debt under control, it is military spending. More than anything, the US needs to slash it. One thing that differentiates the US from all other countries, is the size of its military budget. I don't know why nobody sees this except a few...
Military spending is #3, behind Social Security and Medicare.

Even if we took military spending to $0, we'd still be hundreds of billions short this year.

Cutting military alone won't solve the problem. Everything needs to be reformed.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:07 PM   #487
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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If there is one key to getting the debt under control, it is military spending. More than anything, the US needs to slash it. One thing that differentiates the US from all other countries, is the size of its military budget. I don't know why nobody sees this except a few...
But we cant cut troop pay nor supplies. They barely make anything now, and they are screwed out of supplies. Buddy of mine had to pay out of pocket to replace damaged body armor because the Army refused to supply replacement armor. They expected him to doorgun with no armor. This is unacceptable.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:07 PM   #488
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

The US accounts for 41% of all military spending in the world. China is 8% and it's the next highest. Tell me that's not an eye-opener.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:09 PM   #489
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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No doubt, but we cant cut troop pay nor supplies. They barely make anything now, and they are **** out of supplies. Buddy of mine had to pay out of pocket for body armor because the Army refused to supply replacement armor. They expected him to doorgun with no armor.
Simple solution: the US needs less troops in fewer engagements. It needs to stop being the world's policeman. It can't afford to be any longer.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:10 PM   #490
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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The US accounts for 41% of all military spending in the world. China is 8% and it's the next highest. Tell me that's not an eye-opener.
I believe the US spends more then either 15 or 17 of the top countries after them. it sort of is ridiculous. And it's not like we Rome where we go to other countries defeat them and loot them for all they worth(we just enable certain business to go to places we occupy and loot them). lol

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:13 PM   #491
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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The US accounts for 41% of all military spending in the world. China is 8% and it's the next highest. Tell me that's not an eye-opener.
It absolutely is. Even more so when you factor in that our troops are doing without basic supplies like body armor.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:15 PM   #492
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Simple solution: the US needs less troops in fewer engagements. It needs to stop being the world's policeman. It can't afford to be any longer.
True, but you say that and the Right thinks you are unamerican or that you dont believe in the american superiority complex.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:21 PM   #493
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

This is why I'm partly hoping the US goes over the cliff. I'm not over-enthused about the pain that goes with it, and the people who won't get their unemployment benefits, and the risk of recession. But going over will decrease spending on the military. I think it's hard medicine that the US needs.

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Old 01-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #494
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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This is why I'm partly hoping the US goes over the cliff. I'm not over-enthused about the pain that goes with it, and the people who won't get their unemployment benefits, and the risk of recession. But going over will decrease spending on the military. I think it's hard medicine that the US needs.

This is what I posted on my Facebook...

''
We need spending cuts. Not just tiny ones, but bigger cuts. I don't think House passes this, but at same time, a deal is best for country. So I guess I have mixed feelings. Technically, as a Libertarian, I don't think I would vote 'yay' for this deal...but at same time, no deal means recession is likely. But going over cliff now instead of later on may be best.''



To go long with this story.


http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...-in-doubt?lite

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Old 01-01-2013, 05:57 PM   #495
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

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Right if you don't think 250 is well off or rich..you need a head check...
It isn't all that simple. When it comes to the tax department, the left argues in the way the conservative punditry does by attempting to make something sound simple when it isn't and refusing to take several facts in.

It all comes down to how the standard of living is. In an area like where taxes are lower and is similar to where I live, I would say that $250,000 per year is quite well off because of lower costs of living, lower housing prices, and lower associated expenses.

But say you live in an area with high living expenses like New York City or San Fransisco, a person making $250,000 per year in those areas can't be considered rich due to the ridiculously high living costs. Or say that they're a business owner, because of the costs associated with running a business, just because a business is taking in $250,000 per year, doesn't mean that the business owner is living like a person who makes $250,000 per year. Or there are people in professions who have high educational debt. A doctor making $250,000 per year, is still going to be working on paying it off.

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Old 01-01-2013, 07:22 PM   #496
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Exactly. Listen, I'm fairly liberal. I voted for Obama twice. I don't mind paying higher taxes because I know there are others less fortunate than me, but this idea that because I make close to $250k, that I can "afford a little more" is hogwash. If you want to go after people who can afford it, then go after those who make income off of capital gains. That rate is ridiculously low.

I get taxed ridiculously high in city and state taxes. And I know, we can't move anywhere cheaper even if we wanted to, because of our jobs. But this idea that I am "rich" is ridiculous.

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Old 01-01-2013, 08:04 PM   #497
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Exactly. Listen, I'm fairly liberal. I voted for Obama twice. I don't mind paying higher taxes because I know there are others less fortunate than me, but this idea that because I make close to $250k, that I can "afford a little more" is hogwash. If you want to go after people who can afford it, then go after those who make income off of capital gains. That rate is ridiculously low.

I get taxed ridiculously high in city and state taxes. And I know, we can't move anywhere cheaper even if we wanted to, because of our jobs. But this idea that I am "rich" is ridiculous.

I can't but help think of Romney laughing... ''Rich, where's your 3rd house then?'

Also, looking like the House will cave and vote yay tonight on the bill. Cause they are giving into peer pressure...if they don't agree with it, vote nay, be damn if you look evil for doing so. Nevermind the fact I want Republican Party to look evil...

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Old 01-01-2013, 08:13 PM   #498
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

I am hoping that this will topple Boehner as the Leader of the House....I would much rather have Ryan (doubtful that will happen, but maybe) in...someone that has actually worked across the aisle and written legislation.

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Old 01-01-2013, 08:25 PM   #499
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Default Re: Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues

They are voting on the Senate Passed "fiscal bluff" bill in the House right now.

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Old 01-01-2013, 08:27 PM   #500
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The way I heard it there may be 150 Dems who will vote yes on the bill. That would mean that all they would need is 67 to 69 Republicans to get the necessary votes to pass.

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