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Old 10-14-2012, 03:34 AM   #551
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This is even worse than that time Jim Gordon faked his death in that one movie.

#amidoingitright
Difference being that in "that one movie" Gordon faked his death to keep his family safe while he apprehended The Joker.

Coulson's death in The Avengers was the foundation for the heroes becoming a team.

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Old 10-14-2012, 04:06 AM   #552
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I very much doubt Coulson's still alive, particularly since the news is about his ONLY appearing in the pilot. He's not a regular cast member. The likelihood, then, is that Coulson either appears in a flashback or the pilot episode occurs before Avengers. That's a simpler and far more likley scenario than using an LMD or whatever. Remember, people, this is Joss Whedon we're talking about. He's a colossal douche when it comes to taking beloved characters away from the fans and making sure we know we're never getting them back (*cough*WINIFRED BURKLE*cough*).

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Old 10-14-2012, 04:23 AM   #553
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I very much doubt Coulson's still alive, particularly since the news is about his ONLY appearing in the pilot. He's not a regular cast member. The likelihood, then, is that Coulson either appears in a flashback or the pilot episode occurs before Avengers. That's a simpler and far more likley scenario than using an LMD or whatever. Remember, people, this is Joss Whedon we're talking about. He's a colossal douche when it comes to taking beloved characters away from the fans and making sure we know we're never getting them back (*cough*WINIFRED BURKLE*cough*).
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"There was never going to be a 'S.H.I.E.L.D.' show without Agent Phil Coulson!" said Feige, who appeared behind Whedon, wearing a COULSON LIVES shirt.

"He's headlining the S.H.I.E.L.D. show and always was." said Whedon.

Feige and Whedon made it pretty clear that Coulson is the show's lead character.

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Old 10-14-2012, 07:04 AM   #554
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Best news ever. At least since James Gunn joined the MCU.

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Old 10-14-2012, 08:04 AM   #555
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

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I very much doubt Coulson's still alive, particularly since the news is about his ONLY appearing in the pilot. He's not a regular cast member. The likelihood, then, is that Coulson either appears in a flashback or the pilot episode occurs before Avengers. That's a simpler and far more likley scenario than using an LMD or whatever. Remember, people, this is Joss Whedon we're talking about. He's a colossal douche when it comes to taking beloved characters away from the fans and making sure we know we're never getting them back (*cough*WINIFRED BURKLE*cough*).
Hey, I loved Illyria just like I loved Fred. Also, with the Angel finale, we got to see more of Fred come out in Illyria. I think if season 6 would've happened, we would've seen more Fred/Illyria switching.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:08 AM   #556
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:11 PM   #557
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I don't know what capacity Coulson will be involved in the SHIELD series but I don't believe for one second that Coulson didn't breathe his last breath with a gaping hole in his chest on the helicarrier. Flashbacks, recordings, whatever, everything that I understand about Whedon suggests that he is not backtracking on that death. I'm 100% certain he wouldn't do it. One potential possibility, that I could possibly see Whedon opting for is have the real Coulson dead, but an LMD still running around as that would create the kind of awkward, screwed up atmosphere between those that knew Coulson as a living man and know they're working with a machine. Until proven wrong though, I maintain that Coulson is dead and his involvement does not point to resurrection or fake outs.

That said, I don't think Coulson was quite as instrumental in forming the team as people give him credit for, heck, Banner didn't even know he died. Coulson's death did a lot to mess with Tony and put him in his place, but pretty much everyone else has a clearly defined reason to get the job done independent of Coulson and for their own personal reasons.

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:22 PM   #558
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

It's also possible that SHIELD takes place before the Avengers movie.

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:42 PM   #559
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Might be cool if the first season encompasses the year leading up to the events in TA.

I wonder if they're gonna use the comic idea that SHIELD has been around for centuries.

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:50 PM   #560
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

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It's also possible that SHIELD takes place before the Avengers movie.
The logical answer.

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:53 PM   #561
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The lame answer.

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Old 10-14-2012, 05:21 PM   #562
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VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 10-14-2012, 06:00 PM   #563
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

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I don't know what capacity Coulson will be involved in the SHIELD series but I don't believe for one second that Coulson didn't breathe his last breath with a gaping hole in his chest on the helicarrier. Flashbacks, recordings, whatever, everything that I understand about Whedon suggests that he is not backtracking on that death. I'm 100% certain he wouldn't do it. One potential possibility, that I could possibly see Whedon opting for is have the real Coulson dead, but an LMD still running around as that would create the kind of awkward, screwed up atmosphere between those that knew Coulson as a living man and know they're working with a machine. Until proven wrong though, I maintain that Coulson is dead and his involvement does not point to resurrection or fake outs.
This could actually work. It doesn't make sense for SHIELD to have had LMDs running around in Avengers (cuz I can think of a few dozen times they would have used them otherwise, and where was the real Coulson all this time?) but giving Gregg an automaton storyline could be really REALLY interesting. Sort of Vision, but not quite, not with that crazy costume.

Quote:
That said, I don't think Coulson was quite as instrumental in forming the team as people give him credit for, heck, Banner didn't even know he died. Coulson's death did a lot to mess with Tony and put him in his place, but pretty much everyone else has a clearly defined reason to get the job done independent of Coulson and for their own personal reasons.
It showed Tony how to be a hero, how to crawl on the wire for the other guy. It got Steve to stop sitting around the table and make the team happen. It got Thor to turn completely on Loki. It was crucial amongst crucial. Without it, they'd still be sitting around the table, at each other's throats, waiting for SHIELD to tell them what to do so that they can disagree with it. They had jobs, but jobs wouldn't have saved the day, they needed become heroes. They needed to, on a personal level, take responsibility for the safety of the world, screw SHIELD, screw Loki, let's take these five or six people out there and stop an unstoppable army.

Without Coulson's death, there was no march, there was no action. All hope was lost, unless they had an inspiration to march to their death they would never have gone in force, with the spirit necessary to attain victory.

That part of the movie was so well made, and very much the emotional heart of the film, it's a bit stupefying to see people so quickly throw that away just to see Coulson again, as though he's a lesser character for dying, and he's a greater character because he's alive.

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Last edited by DrCosmic; 10-14-2012 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:12 PM   #564
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

Gregg can play a relative of Coulson. Instead of "son" he can be Coulbro, or maybe Couldad.

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Old 10-14-2012, 06:14 PM   #565
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

Not everyone found that scene particularly emotional. I myself found it more "Oh hey Whedons killing someone because that's what he does."

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Old 10-14-2012, 06:41 PM   #566
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VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 10-14-2012, 06:42 PM   #567
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

There were a lot of gasps in my opening night screening, probably from non-Whedonites. Like you, I saw the abrupt and brutal end to a secondary character of note as par for the course, though I did have some affection for Coulson after his man-crush scenes with Cap.

Thanks for the vid Chewy.


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Old 10-14-2012, 09:19 PM   #568
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

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Not everyone found that scene particularly emotional. I myself found it more "Oh hey Whedons killing someone because that's what he does."
The characters did, and it spurred them on to action they would not have otherwise taken. If that is taken away, there are narrative consequences, aside from the hamfistedness of retconning a clear death.

Also, if Coulson's coming back, I'm going to need Wash and Book. We've actually seen LMDs in the 'Verse.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:36 PM   #569
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The characters did
You keep saying this but the story doesn't support it very well. Didn't feel to me like he was all that close to any of them to be honest. Steve and Thor barely knew him. They each shared what, one scene apiece with him? Tony acted more bothered by him than anything. It felt like he had a stronger relationship with Pepper than any of the Avengers themselves.

The more I think about it, the more the entire debacle feels like "Whedon needs to kill somebody, might as well be Coulson." If anything was hamfisted, it was killing him off in the first place.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #570
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Tony acted bothered b/c he wanted to chill with Pepper, he was clearly fond of Coulson and chatted with him accordingly when he first appeared on the Helicarrier.

But it wasn't the thing that spurred the Avengers on to action, that was, y'know, saving the world. It was an emotional moment for the audience, and was meant to show how hard Loki had owned them, killing their mascot in their base of operations. Fury just used the moment to reingratiate himself with Tony and Steve, shortly after they were furyous at him.

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Old 10-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #571
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So we're supposed to believe that The Avengers would not have gotten together and fought to save the world from an alien invasion if Coulson hadn't died?

Meh. Melodrama at best. Decent melodrama, but melodrama nonetheless.

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:08 PM   #572
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You keep saying this but the story doesn't support it very well. Didn't feel to me like he was all that close to any of them to be honest. Steve and Thor barely knew him. They each shared what, one scene apiece with him? Tony acted more bothered by him than anything. It felt like he had a stronger relationship with Pepper than any of the Avengers themselves.

The more I think about it, the more the entire debacle feels like "Whedon needs to kill somebody, might as well be Coulson." If anything was hamfisted, it was killing him off in the first place.
Exactly.
The only character who had "emotional resonance" with Coulson's death was Tony. Thor wasn't even there to learn of his death until later, and he was only slightly chummy with Son of Coul; everybody else (Cap, Widow, Hawkeye and Banner) didn't know Coulson from Adam's housecat. So the only one who gets to deliver the teary-eyed melodramatic eulogy is (predictably) RDJ. Because he's, you know, The Big Star and all.

The death scene served its purpose, but it wasn't the crux of the story. And to say that it's the reason the Avengers came together to "avenge Coulson" is completely selling these heroes short. They're supposed to give a damn about saving the freakin' human race, *not* about getting revenge against the thug who murdered one of their supporting cast. THAT reading of the movie cheapens the hell out of the film, and Whedon's intent.

I liken it to Spock's death in TWOK. Very emotional and meaningful and all that, but nobody wanted Spock to stay dead. Trek III comes along, and everybody's happy that Spock's back; but it didn't lessen the impact of TWOK's timeless death scene.

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:11 PM   #573
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^

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:20 PM   #574
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Default Re: Disney/Marvel & ABC working on Avengers spin-off tv show?

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You keep saying this but the story doesn't support it very well. Didn't feel to me like he was all that close to any of them to be honest. Steve and Thor barely knew him. They each shared what, one scene apiece with him? Tony acted more bothered by him than anything. It felt like he had a stronger relationship with Pepper than any of the Avengers themselves.
Okay, in the story who taught Tony to be willing to die for others?
In the story, why did Tony choose to punctuate his speech to Loki with Agent Coulson's first name, which he previously claimed he didn't have? (Hint: he just finished transforming)
In the story, why were Steve and the others sitting around the table looking all dejected. Were they waiting on orders?
In the story, when did Thor become willing to use lethal force against Loki?
In the story, why did Thor scream and beat the glass at Coulson's death? Bad writing?
In the story why did Fury put blood on the Captain America trading cards...

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Tony acted bothered b/c he wanted to chill with Pepper, he was clearly fond of Coulson and chatted with him accordingly when he first appeared on the Helicarrier.

But it wasn't the thing that spurred the Avengers on to action, that was, y'know, saving the world. It was an emotional moment for the audience, and was meant to show how hard Loki had owned them, killing their mascot in their base of operations. Fury just used the moment to reingratiate himself with Tony and Steve, shortly after they were furyous at him.
I disagree. Fury definitely did not ingratiate himself with them. In fact, when they ran off without him, stealing his expensive equipment without clearance, he was pleased. He had planned for them to throw him off, it seemed. Perhaps you feel Fury will be surprised that Tony is making Avengers tower, I don't think he will be, not at all.

The world needed to be saved when they were sitting around the table looking depressed. Apparently that wasn't enough. The needed something more... some kind of... I dunno... push?

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Exactly.
The only character who had "emotional resonance" with Coulson's death was Tony. Thor wasn't even there to learn of his death until later, and he was only slightly chummy with Son of Coul; everybody else (Cap, Widow, Hawkeye and Banner) didn't know Coulson from Adam's housecat. So the only one who gets to deliver the teary-eyed melodramatic eulogy is (predictably) RDJ. Because he's, you know, The Big Star and all.

The death scene served its purpose, but it wasn't the crux of the story. And to say that it's the reason the Avengers came together to "avenge Coulson" is completely selling these heroes short. They're supposed to give a damn about saving the freakin' human race, *not* about getting revenge against the thug who murdered one of their supporting cast. THAT reading of the movie cheapens the hell out of the film, and Whedon's intent.

I liken it to Spock's death in TWOK. Very emotional and meaningful and all that, but nobody wanted Spock to stay dead. Trek III comes along, and everybody's happy that Spock's back; but it didn't lessen the impact of TWOK's timeless death scene.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who forgets part of the movie. Thor was the only one was there when Coulson died. And obviously Widow and Hawkeye were very familiar with him. We can debate how much Cap cared about Coulson, but it'd be a cold cap who didn't have any love for his strongest supporter, the man who designed his new costume.

And who said anything about "avenging Coulson???" Listen to Coulson's last words. Listen to Fury's explanation for the bloody cards. The Avengers needed Coulson's death. We can argue what for exactly, but the movie, even the character Coulson, explicitly expressed this idea. If Coulson hadn't died, then the world would not have been saved, unless the Avengers is a very badly written movie and/or Coulson was incorrect about the impact his death would have on the team.

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:31 PM   #575
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Okay, in the story who taught Tony to be willing to die for others?
Cap
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In the story, why did Tony choose to punctuate his speech to Loki with Agent Coulson's first name, which he previously claimed he didn't have? (Hint: he just finished transforming)
B/c Loki killed Coulson. He did not kill any of the others. Note that the Coulson not having a first name thing was a ~joke~
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In the story, why were Steve and the others sitting around the table looking all dejected. Were they waiting on orders?
Thor and Hulk both got blasted off god-knows-where, Widow was god-knows-where. They needed a moment to get their bearings
Quote:
In the story, when did Thor become willing to use lethal force against Loki?
After Loki tried to kill him by sending him plummeting to the Earth, and began to unleash a lethal army on a populated city
Quote:
In the story, why did Thor scream and beat the glass at Coulson's death? Bad writing?
It was the first time Thor watched Loki kill a guy in cold blood, no?
Quote:
In the story why did Fury put blood on the Captain America trading cards...
B/c Fury is a manipulative *******...

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