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Old 07-31-2012, 03:37 PM   #76
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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I think you're over thinking it a bit.
Quite the contrary...I think Supes fans takle a bit too much for granted.

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In comics and now superhero films, sure, competition is factor but in general popular culture, Superman is near the top if not on top. I would say is he is definitely far above any superhero in terms of pop culture standing.
At least in movies, Iron Man, Batman, Spiderman, the Avengers are all miles ahead at the moment. Then add in the higher saturation of big-time effects extravaganzas all around...he's got even more to contend with. Of course, they all have current films, but Supes has more perception of 'falling behind' over the years to overcome than another character would have coming in new. Put it this way he's not starting up with as clean a slate as others may....even though he should.

Basically, if the movie is good enough, it'll allow him to catch up fine with all the others...and that's all they should be concerned with. It just may take a little more to 'catch on' because of what it has to overcome....sort of like BB and B&R/Catwoman before it, but in some ways even heavier.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 07-31-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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Quite the contrary...I think Supes fans takle a bit too much for granted.


At least in movies, Iron Man, Batman, Spiderman, the Avengers are all miles ahead at the moment. Then add in the higher saturation of big-time effects extravaganzas all around...he's got even more to contend with. Of course, they all have current films, but Supes has more perception of 'falling behind' over the years to overcome than another character would have coming in new. Put it this way he's not starting up with as clean a slate as others may....even though he should.

Basically, if the movie is good enough, it'll allow him to catch up fine with all the others...and that's all they should be concerned with. It just may take a little more to 'catch on' because of what it has to overcome.
Again, I'm not talking about films or comics. I'm talking about pop culture influence. And I'm not saying that he doesn't experience a certain amount of hate or apathy. In terms of this film, he does have an uphill battle. What I'm saying is that a lot of the hate or apathy is directly because of his standing as a pop culture icon, which is undoubtedly near the top. Billions of people know the basics about him which lead them to falsely believe that they know who he is as a character.


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Old 07-31-2012, 03:46 PM   #78
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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Again, I'm not talking about films or comics. I'm talking about pop culture influence.
That's where I think he's somewhat more brand than icon.
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But for this film, he does have an uphill battle.
And I think they should still just make the best film they can and just let the pieces fall where they may. It also applies to some of the misgivings that some had about there not being a 'bigger' first teaser, in that it's not separating itself from SR enough.

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What I'm saying is that a lot of the hate or apathy is directly because of his standing as a pop culture icon, which is undoubtedly near the top. Billions of people know the basics about him which lead them to falsely believe that they know who he is as a character.
I don't copletely agree, in that it's a 'backlash' to an acknowledged iconic status or what have you. I think it's an overall indifference in a growing atmosphere of entertainment. Sure, people know that he's always bee there...but it is just there, as opposed to here and now, so to speak. Respect or rebellion towards some sort of enduring iconography/symbolism/uniqueness has little if anything to do with it, it's much simpler than that...more about him being seen as commonplace....and not really caring who he is as a character behind it all, etc. They all know he's a good guy...no biggie.

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Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 07-31-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:47 PM   #79
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

Sorry, I did a bit of an edit up there.

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Old 07-31-2012, 03:49 PM   #80
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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That's where I think he's somewhat more brand than icon.
I believe those two go hand in hand.

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And I think they should still just make the best film they can and just let the pieces fall where they may. It also applies to some of the misgivings that some had about there not being a 'bigger' first teaser, in that it's not separating itself from SR enough.
Definitely.

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Old 07-31-2012, 03:55 PM   #81
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I believe those two go hand in hand.
Not necessarily...an icon, to me, remains unique. A brand can become commonplace (like Kleenex or Coke, referring more to their ubiquity as a commodity rather than a deluxe item), which I think Supes has leaned more towards in recent generations.

I'm not saying that I completely agree with it, but it's understandable how it's perceived that way.

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Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 07-31-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 07-31-2012, 04:00 PM   #82
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Not necessarily...an icon, to me, remains unique. A brand can become commonplace (like Kleenex or Coke, referring more to their ubiquity as a commodity rather than a deluxe item), which I think Supes has leaned more towards in recent generations.

I'm not saying that I completely agree with it, but it's understandable how it's perceived that way.
That's definitely fair, but to me an icon 1) influences others and 2) becomes a representative of something. Clearly, Superman is the granddaddy of all heroes so there's number one. As for number two, his look is the template for the generic superhero. The cape, the trunks, the symbol on the chest, in some cases the polite manner, flying, strength, etc. He is the superhero icon.

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Old 07-31-2012, 04:02 PM   #83
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That's fair, but to me an icon 1) influences others and 2) becomes a representative of something. Clearly, Superman is the granddaddy of all heroes so there's number one. As for number two, his look is the template for the generic superhero. The cape, the trunks, the symbol on the chest, in some cases the polite manner, flying, strength, etc. He is the superhero icon.
Again, I'm not saying at some point he didn't earn that 'iconography'...it's more about if that's really what's immediately acknowledged about him recently/today. I'd say at the very least, it's divided. To many, he's the Superhero model/prototype, but the concept (along with the format, especially comics/film) has evolved past him. Yes, "Generic" is a pretty apt term.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 07-31-2012, 04:03 PM   #84
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Again, I'm not saying at some point he didn't earn that 'iconography'...it's more about if that's really what's immediately acknowledged about him recently/today. I'd say at the very least, it's divided.
I can go with that.

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Old 07-31-2012, 04:13 PM   #85
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

And ultimately, it's an unfair weight to put on the film...to have to make up ground for something it had no say or control over. If Supes isn't as popular in comics, then that's up to the comics, this movie can only be as good as it can be. Bringing Supes back into the forefront of the entertainment radar, if/how it happens, is gravy.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:56 AM   #86
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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For some reason, though, it feels worse with Superman than it did with Batman coming off of B&R and Catwoman. I think that with Supes, it's somehow worse because unlike the palpable 'hate' and notoriety coming off of those two movies, with Supes it's more like indifference built up over a longer period....kinda' like saying 'love me or hate me...just don't ignore me'.

Also, I think that failing or not making an impact in today's movie atmosphere stings more because there are so many others 'in the party'. But by no means is Supes dead or done with. At least in movies, if it's really good then it should be right up there as one of several attractive options. He might never pass the likes of Iron Man or Batman, but if the franchise could at least have some life on the big screen again, that's at least achieving something. Whereas something like GL really shot itself in the foot for what seems like a long time.
Ya. They don't care is worse than hate.

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Old 08-01-2012, 06:23 AM   #87
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

They hate Superman because they suck. Although after the last 25 years who can blame them?

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Old 08-01-2012, 11:41 AM   #88
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Ya. They don't care is worse than hate.
It can be in a lot of cases....especially when it comes to the most important asset, which is attention.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:45 AM   #89
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This is timely for our discussion:

http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/08/01/gr...o-of-all-time/

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Old 08-02-2012, 05:47 AM   #90
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

Personally I think the success of Captain America bodes well for Superman. Before that, I didn't think such an altruistic character could succeed in this age of darker, more conflicted superheroes.

People really seemed to take to Cap however, and appreciate that type of story, even though it was his first time around the block, not the 6th. I don't think the world was "ready" in a sense, for Superman in 2006. Especially not one that retreaded so much familiar ground. Some people/fans think that humanizing Clark is the way to go, and it seems Nolan & co. are trying to go that way again so we'll see.

But for me, Superman always represented what we should aspire to, not relate to. He should be better than us, essentially here to protect and show humans the best way to live. I want him to be larger than life, a spectacle every time he's on screen. I know MOS isn't shooting for that, so hopefully whatever they come up with works. One of these films though, I'd like to stop being made to feel sorry for Superman in some way, and just enjoy being in awe.

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Old 08-02-2012, 07:35 AM   #91
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why do people keep saying oh he is overpowered lol

then what about thor?

did he not go punch for punch with the freaking hulk with not a scratch on him

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Old 08-02-2012, 07:47 AM   #92
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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Personally I think the success of Captain America bodes well for Superman. Before that, I didn't think such an altruistic character could succeed in this age of darker, more conflicted superheroes.

People really seemed to take to Cap however, and appreciate that type of story, even though it was his first time around the block, not the 6th. I don't think the world was "ready" in a sense, for Superman in 2006. Especially not one that retreaded so much familiar ground. Some people/fans think that humanizing Clark is the way to go, and it seems Nolan & co. are trying to go that way again so we'll see.

But for me, Superman always represented what we should aspire to, not relate to. He should be better than us, essentially here to protect and show humans the best way to live. I want him to be larger than life, a spectacle every time he's on screen. I know MOS isn't shooting for that, so hopefully whatever they come up with works. One of these films though, I'd like to stop being made to feel sorry for Superman in some way, and just enjoy being in awe.
People were not ready for a movie that really was not that good. Had the movie been better it would have been a success. It really is that simple.

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Old 08-02-2012, 08:15 AM   #93
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why do people keep saying oh he is overpowered lol

then what about thor?

did he not go punch for punch with the freaking hulk with not a scratch on him
Thor gets a free pass for no one really knowing who he is.

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Old 08-02-2012, 08:35 AM   #94
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I heard a song today. It is one of thousands of songs that reference Superman. It's funny at how prevalent he is in our society and consciousness as a character and ideal but yet people ignore him.

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Old 08-02-2012, 08:52 AM   #95
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Well after 20 years he had one disappointing movie where instead of being a shining and strong character, he was gloomy, weak and spending his time creeping around houses at night.

This is why a reboot is necessary. They'll place Superman in the world, make him super, and give him a fresh start with a worthy opponent. It's the best possible thing they could do.

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Old 08-02-2012, 08:55 AM   #96
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

This movie will help placing him back in the forefront.

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Old 08-02-2012, 09:38 AM   #97
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

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That's where I think he's somewhat more brand than icon.
I agree. I think there’s a bit of a disconnect between Supes as a famous cultural icon/brand and Supes as a character who can carry a narrative to blockbuster status. I think some folks imagine that since the former is true (and there’s no debate about that), the latter follows as a matter of logic or entitlement. But while more people may have tattoos or bumper stickers than any other form of superhero iconography, this fact (obviously) didn’t translate into SIV or SR being mega hits. Bottom line: even avid fans will budget their entertainment dollars. And they have no hesitation in “rewarding” the competition if they’re offering the better deal.

The tricky part is… if people want the validation and bragging rights of box office success, then Supes - almost certainly - will have to appeal to the current/popular zeitgeist. And that may not be the same, vaguely idealized Supes that purists have in their mind’s eye.

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Old 08-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #98
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

But the movies you guys keep using as examples were horrible.

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Old 08-02-2012, 09:55 AM   #99
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

Superman Returns did in fact do better than Batman Begins, remember. And with worse word of mouth. I think people are open to the character.

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Old 08-02-2012, 10:25 AM   #100
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Superman Returns did in fact do better than Batman Begins, remember. And with worse word of mouth.
Not domestically....and with more theaters, a longer run and IMAX, to boot.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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