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Old 08-02-2012, 10:28 AM   #101
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

No it didn't but they practically made the same domestically and Begins is 10 times the movies Returns was.

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Old 08-02-2012, 10:43 AM   #102
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I agree. I think there’s a bit of a disconnect between Supes as a famous cultural icon/brand and Supes as a character who can carry a narrative to blockbuster status. I think some folks imagine that since the former is true (and there’s no debate about that), the latter follows as a matter of logic or entitlement. But while more people may have tattoos or bumper stickers than any other form of superhero iconography, this fact (obviously) didn’t translate into SIV or SR being mega hits. Bottom line: even avid fans will budget their entertainment dollars. And they have no hesitation in “rewarding” the competition if they’re offering the better deal.

The tricky part is… if people want the validation and bragging rights of box office success, then Supes - almost certainly - will have to appeal to the current/popular zeitgeist. And that may not be the same, vaguely idealized Supes that purists have in their mind’s eye.
Agree. Just to clarify my position, I was never saying that because he is an icon and brand, that people don't hate him and the movie will be successful.

In fact, I believe almost the opposite. I feel that because he is so well known and prevalent due to his status as a one the biggest pop icons and brands, people take no interest in learning about him because they feel they already know him. It breeds an ignorance that leads to the apathy.

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Old 08-02-2012, 11:02 AM   #103
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Agree. Just to clarify my position, I was never saying that because he is an icon and brand, that people don't hate him and the movie will be successful.

In fact, I believe almost the opposite. I feel that because he is so well known and prevalent due to his status as a one the biggest pop icons and brands, people take no interest in learning about him because they feel they already know him. It breeds an ignorance that leads to the apathy.
I don't really see it as taking some elevated stature for granted as much as his not really progressing and/or evolving while others have done more to earn more attention and popularity. Ferrari will always be considered, by name, a premium brand/icon, but they also keep earning that by putting out amazing cars....rather than resting on models of the past. Superman is in danger of becoming more like Pontiac...which at one point had the GTO which was certainly popular and a musclecar icon of its time. But that feels way past by now, whereas real 'supercars' from the likes of Lamborghini and MacLaren take the spotlight. That's what Superman needs to show it can do...hang with cars like that, and show it can do more than just (eventually) go fast in a straight line.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:08 PM   #104
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Superman Returns did in fact do better than Batman Begins, remember. And with worse word of mouth. I think people are open to the character.
I believe that too. I think it’s an oversimplification to say that people - en masse - would either flock to “anything Superman” or, alternatively, stay away in droves. The character still has some intrinsic cachet. But he also has baggage. Now maybe those cancel out. And that kinda puts Supes back at square one - having to earn his place (he's not entitled to it).

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Old 08-02-2012, 12:10 PM   #105
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I don't really see it as taking some elevated stature for granted as much as his not really progressing and/or evolving while others have done more to earn more attention and popularity. Ferrari will always be considered, by name, a premium brand/icon, but they also keep earning that by putting out amazing cars....rather than resting on models of the past. Superman is in danger of becoming more like Pontiac...which at one point had the GTO which was certainly popular and a musclecar icon of its time. But that feels way past by now, whereas real 'supercars' from the likes of Lamborghini and MacLaren take the spotlight. That's what Superman needs to show it can do...hang with cars like that, and show it can do more than just (eventually) go fast in a straight line.
I don't disagree. But ignorance about Superman (due to his prevalence) is undoubtedly one factor in the apathy towards him.

As I said before, if I had a dollar for every time someone tried to tell me why Superman is boring without them having ever read a comic, I'd be rich.

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Old 08-02-2012, 12:13 PM   #106
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I don't disagree. But ignorance about Superman (due to his prevalence) is undoubtedly one factor in the apathy towards him.
But again...if so, who is to blame for that?

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As I said before, if I had a dollar for every time someone tried to tell me why Superman is boring without them having ever read a comic, I'd be rich.
Perhaps...but I'll bet you'd also find a lot of people who find Batman/Iron Man/Spidey 'cooler' without ever reading their comics as well.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:50 PM   #107
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Theres no secret why Superman can be boring, even to avid comic fans. He's very difficult to write because hes basically perfect. Perfection is dull, inert from a story and character perspective.

This point has been made by many many prominent comic writers, including Grant Morrison and Alan Moore.

Plenty of articles on the interwebs that expand on the challenges involved in writing compelling Superman stories.


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Old 08-02-2012, 01:07 PM   #108
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But again...if so, who is to blame for that?


Perhaps...but I'll bet you'd also find a lot of people who find Batman/Iron Man/Spidey 'cooler' without ever reading their comics as well.
And AGAIN, I would say PART of it is due to his prevalence. PART of it. Not ALL of it. There a multiple factors to a lot of things in life. It's not all of nothing.

Would you agree that it's ONE factor?

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Old 08-02-2012, 01:22 PM   #109
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And AGAIN, I would say PART of it is due to his prevalence. PART of it. Not ALL of it. There a multiple factors to a lot of things in life. It's not all of nothing.

Would you agree that it's ONE factor?
If at all, a minor part by now amongst the general entertainment public. And younger generations are less and less aware/interested in what may have been prevalent in the past.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

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Old 08-02-2012, 01:24 PM   #110
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Theres no secret why Superman can be boring, even to avid comic fans. He's very difficult to write because hes basically perfect. Perfection is dull, inert from a story and character perspective.

This point has been made by many many prominent comic writers, including Grant Morrison and Alan Moore.

Plenty of articles on the interwebs that expand on the challenges involved in writing compelling Superman stories.
It's also a concept of 'perfection' borne of older sensibilities. Somewhat like how the idea of God used to be the default 'answer' for the unknown...and today we know a lot more. We're able to recognize more of the fallacies inherent to that concept, and find wonder and fascination in a lot more that's considerably non-divine or supernatural.

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Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 08-02-2012 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:27 PM   #111
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If at all, an ectremely minor part.
I'll take that as a "no" and will agree to disagree.

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Old 08-02-2012, 01:34 PM   #112
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I'll take that as a "no" and will agree to disagree.
Not necessarily...as I expanded below, it would be moreso of an element for older generations and possibly a decade ago. But for newer ones who come into a time where there isn't any so-called 'prevalence', there's less and less of it to be significance and it's just about the here and now. One can bring up the 75+ years of such-and-such, or talk about the days of iconography...but if it's not part of someone's life, it's just not a factor one way or another. That's why for some, Superman is becoming more of a relic of a bygone era with each generation.

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Originally Posted by Matt
Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 08-02-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:48 PM   #113
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The idea of hate for Superman because he is too powerful is RIDICULOUS. Do half the Marvel characters get hate for being too powerful? The Hulk doesn't seem to have that problem, Neither does Juggernaut or Wolvie with his healing ability. Granted Supes is a lot more popular in culture, but c'mon, stories can be boring, but that's because writers don't challenge him properly, which is easy to do, just use the right villains.

That "too powerful" argument isn't thought out. Think a little more critically!

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Old 08-02-2012, 02:06 PM   #114
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

This hate for Supes is a fanboy thing so who cares?

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Old 08-02-2012, 02:15 PM   #115
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This hate for Supes is a fanboy thing so who cares?
I honestly don't think so. It's stupid people in the general public who in the past 10 years have been bombarded by the media with superheroes in cartoons, film, etc. and who don't really bother to know anything about Superman.

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Old 08-02-2012, 02:22 PM   #116
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

The general movie going public is not concerned that he's too powerful or to perfect so that makes him boring garbage. That rhetoric comes from the fanboy community. There's apathy towards the character, I'll give you that. But that's only because there hasn't been a great movie done of him in ages. The last one was boring as all hell. The real negative talk only comes from the whining fanboys.

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Old 08-02-2012, 02:26 PM   #117
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

Yeah, 'hate' is insignificant...there's people who hate Spidey and Iron Man too if you want to find them. The indifference of audiences is the more major concern.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:29 PM   #118
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The general movie going public is not concerned that he's too powerful or to perfect so that makes him boring garbage. That rhetoric comes from the fanboy community. There's apathy towards the character, I'll give you that. But that's only because there hasn't been a great movie done of him in ages. The last one was boring as all hell. The real negative talk only comes from the whining fanboys.
Your argument does make sense. You make a point that shows where we are in the superhero world today. If a character has to be validated by fanboys with a movie, that is very telling. The mythology can't be cool or the character's history can't be cool because in someone's opinion Superman is too powerful. There are plenty of well known characters that can match Superman as far as physical power but they rarely get the "too powerful" argument.

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Old 08-02-2012, 03:39 PM   #119
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

I'm going to slightly derail the current subject because I just found an article that shows a level of "hate" for Superman/Chris Reeve that will spark some controversy.

Quote: "So it comes with genuinely no pleasure to argue this...

...Reeve just wasn't that accomplished a film actor.

In defense of this position we could point to his lack of much of a post-Superman resume, but the truth is now 30-plus years later with a more critical eye we simply don't find his portrayal of Superman and Clark Kent very much like any Superman or Clark Kent we know... or like, for that matter."

Here's the link to the full article. Reeve is number 9 which implies that his performance is worse than January Jone's portrayal of Emma Frost.

http://www.newsarama.com/film/worst-...rmances-1.html


In my opinion this guy is way off is rocker by including Reeve. Heck he may have only put him in there so he could get people to read it. I don't know.

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Old 08-02-2012, 03:50 PM   #120
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

Attention whore

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Old 08-02-2012, 04:00 PM   #121
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I'm going to slightly derail the current subject because I just found an article that shows a level of "hate" for Superman/Chris Reeve that will spark some controversy.

Quote: "So it comes with genuinely no pleasure to argue this...

...Reeve just wasn't that accomplished a film actor.

In defense of this position we could point to his lack of much of a post-Superman resume, but the truth is now 30-plus years later with a more critical eye we simply don't find his portrayal of Superman and Clark Kent very much like any Superman or Clark Kent we know... or like, for that matter."

Here's the link to the full article. Reeve is number 9 which implies that his performance is worse than January Jone's portrayal of Emma Frost.

http://www.newsarama.com/film/worst-...rmances-1.html


In my opinion this guy is way off is rocker by including Reeve. Heck he may have only put him in there so he could get people to read it. I don't know.
That article on Superman is wholly unfair and it is also unfair for the Toby Mcguire Spidey thing too

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Old 08-02-2012, 04:25 PM   #122
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Agree. Just to clarify my position, I was never saying that because he is an icon and brand, that people don't hate him and the movie will be successful.

In fact, I believe almost the opposite. I feel that because he is so well known and prevalent due to his status as a one the biggest pop icons and brands, people take no interest in learning about him because they feel they already know him. It breeds an ignorance that leads to the apathy.
Nail on the head with that post, never thought of it like that.

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I don't really see it as taking some elevated stature for granted as much as his not really progressing and/or evolving while others have done more to earn more attention and popularity. Ferrari will always be considered, by name, a premium brand/icon, but they also keep earning that by putting out amazing cars....rather than resting on models of the past. Superman is in danger of becoming more like Pontiac...which at one point had the GTO which was certainly popular and a musclecar icon of its time. But that feels way past by now, whereas real 'supercars' from the likes of Lamborghini and MacLaren take the spotlight. That's what Superman needs to show it can do...hang with cars like that, and show it can do more than just (eventually) go fast in a straight line.
Good analogy but I wouldn't single out Pontiac you can include Dodge & Chevy's to that list also. Also it's McLaren btw, couldn't not point that out with my username.

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Old 08-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by superman2090 View Post
I'm going to slightly derail the current subject because I just found an article that shows a level of "hate" for Superman/Chris Reeve that will spark some controversy.

Quote: "So it comes with genuinely no pleasure to argue this...

...Reeve just wasn't that accomplished a film actor.

In defense of this position we could point to his lack of much of a post-Superman resume, but the truth is now 30-plus years later with a more critical eye we simply don't find his portrayal of Superman and Clark Kent very much like any Superman or Clark Kent we know... or like, for that matter."

Here's the link to the full article. Reeve is number 9 which implies that his performance is worse than January Jone's portrayal of Emma Frost.

http://www.newsarama.com/film/worst-...rmances-1.html


In my opinion this guy is way off is rocker by including Reeve. Heck he may have only put him in there so he could get people to read it. I don't know.
I don't think Reeve was a particularly excellent actor but I thought he was a perfect Superman for the time. The article fails to remember that when he got the role of Superman he was very young and had no experience on-screen prior to this iconic role, so for that accomplishment alone he deserves a lot of credit.
I know it's not popular but I actually think Chris's Superman was his best in Superman 3, he physically looked Superman by #3 and his acting had matured.

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Old 08-02-2012, 04:48 PM   #124
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Nail on the head with that post, never thought of it like that.



Good analogy but I wouldn't single out Pontiac you can include Dodge & Chevy's to that list also. Also it's McLaren btw, couldn't not point that out with my username.
Ah...put in the extra 'a' out of clumsiness. But yeah, it's kinda' like the musclecar era not really being what it used to be. Or...if you look at the modern equivalents being like the M5 or AMG's...hi-performance and hi-tech in their own right....and Supes still being a Dodge with a big engine. Still powerful but not quite in the same class as a CL 65 or the like. What makes it harder with movies is tat even though these cars represent vastly different price brackets, all movie tickets cost the same. So imagine having the same X-dollars to spend, getting the keys to a CLK Black or 458 Italia in some venues, and getting a Taurus LS in another. Which would you rather drive/ride in?

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)

Last edited by KalMart; 08-02-2012 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:11 PM   #125
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Default Re: Will people get over the super hate?

I really do believe that the problem with audiences perception of Superman is that they've been bombarded with this image of him as a Jesus allegory rather than straight superhero. Speaking for myself, I much prefer the idea that Jor-El randomly picked a planet that he knew his son could survive on and hoped for the best. Clark gets some great upbringing during his childhood and, after a little bit of soul searching, decides to help the world using his extraordinary powers.

Unfortunately, to me, DC/WB keeps making Jor-El a near omnipresent force in Clark's life and over emphasizes the idea that he was "destined" to do great things rather than deciding to be a superhero because he's just a genuinely good person.

Just my take.

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