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Old 05-08-2014, 08:40 PM   #101
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

Tony jaunts through Europe and inadvertently becomes the target of the increasingly-theatrical Maggia Crime family (Nefaria (Ian McShane or Frank Langella), Madame Masque, the Dreadknoughts). Orchestrating things from the shadows is Justin Hammer senior (Terrence Stamp) and his paid subversive agent Spymaster. i want to work in Ghost but i'm not sure that there's room. he's not much of a joiner, either.


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Old 05-08-2014, 08:53 PM   #102
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Crimson Dynamo and Black Widow were also Russian, you can easily change where they're from, in this case their names aren't even racist like the Mandarin.
I don't the problem is racism with those characters, they are political stereotypes not racial ones. They are propaganda pieces for a conflict that ended 20 years ago, with very little in the way of characterization beyond that, its really hard for them to seem relevant 20 years after the Cold war ended.

Like I said Whiplash in Iron Man 2 is a combo of both Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo, where they tried to give him a personal reason for hating Tony Stark, rather then a rather vague ideological one. Considering how much of Crimson Dynamo is in movie Whiplash, it would be very hard to make a Crimson Dynamo character that wouldn't seem redundant and just pairing him with two other Cold War relics doesn't make him interesting.

Really Crimson Dynamo is just a gimmick and a visual, he is not really a character, because they keep on killing the guy inside the armor and replacing him with some new guy, so its impossible to get a consistent and well realized personality with him. A gimmick and visual is not a bad start, but it takes more then that to have a villain that can carry a movie.

That being said, I guess I wouldn't mind these characters appearing, but they need a more interesting twist then the usual characterization they get in the comics and it will be hard to give Crimson Dynamo characterization that wouldn't be redundant at this point.

Also I think Radioactive Man appears, he needs to reflect the current state of Chinese Us relations, not the state of Chinese US relations from the 1960s. The US Chinese relationship was become so complicated, that putting it into a good vs. evil box is both silly and counter productive.

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Old 05-09-2014, 02:36 AM   #103
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

And i'm not saying they shouldn't get a modern twist, you're here defending that they can't be portrayed as stereotypes when i don't think they should either.

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Old 05-09-2014, 03:41 AM   #104
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

I think the fact that Iron Man's extended rogues gallery is somewhat limited and one-note when compared to other heroes is almost liberating in a way. Yes, the Mandarin thing (which I loved, BTW) got a some grief from the "I want my comicbook characters translated verbatim dammit" crowd, but I think almost everyone would be on board if the speculated writers of the speculated IM4 wrote a compelling yet different backstory/characterization for the likes of, say, Crimson Dynamo, Living Laser, Zeke Stane or whoever else.

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Old 05-09-2014, 05:06 AM   #105
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

The success of Extremis and later the movies has also lead to writers updating Iron Man's villains and stories, as for the new Mandarin, didn't he in the comics just create his oun city? Seems like the MCU could use it to occupy Latveria's role for now.

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Old 05-09-2014, 05:10 AM   #106
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The success of Extremis and later the movies has also lead to writers updating Iron Man's villains and stories, as for the new Mandarin, didn't he in the comics just create his oun city? Seems like the MCU could use it to occupy Latveria's role for now.
I absolutely love that idea. The "real" Mandarin with aspects of Dr. Doom's characterization/backstory. I think it would be an amazing fit.

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Old 05-09-2014, 06:10 AM   #107
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I wouldn't want him to be completelly like Dr.Doom, but along with Count Nefaria, they could have that kind of role for a while, as long as Marvel doesn't get the FF rights bach (which doesn't seem all that far away from happening). Because when they get Doom back, we wouldn't want him to seem useles due to others already being like him, he will need to be a big deal.

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Old 05-09-2014, 08:32 AM   #108
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

I still think a Madam Masque, Spymaster & Ghost trio would be awesome, however I do like a Living Laser/Controller appearance to.

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Old 05-09-2014, 01:40 PM   #109
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And i'm not saying they shouldn't get a modern twist, you're here defending that they can't be portrayed as stereotypes when i don't think they should either.
But I think its hard to give Crimson Dynamo any sort of modern twist that wouldn't seem redundant with Whiplash from Iron Man 2.

Also I think any sort of modern twist with Radioactive Man, would make him an anti hero, rather then a villain, so he would not be an antagonist.

Neither of them seem like the guys you have as villains who drive the plot at this point.

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The success of Extremis and later the movies has also lead to writers updating Iron Man's villains and stories, as for the new Mandarin, didn't he in the comics just create his oun city? Seems like the MCU could use it to occupy Latveria's role for now.
Is Mandarin's city in China? Because if so, I am wondering why the Chinese government would allow him to have his own city? Sure you can argue that Mandarin is more powerful then the Chinese government in terms of brute force, but there is some problems with that. One of the Chinese government would have super soldiers of their own (Radioactive Man, Collective Man, etc) who they could send against Mandarin and even mandarin wins he would still be constantly harried by these guys and I think Radioactive Man could give Mandarin a real fight. Heck the Chinese government could threaten to nuke Mandarin's city and even Mandarin would have a tough time preventing that. Not to mention, the Chinese government would do everything in its power to make sure

Another problem with comparing Mandarin to Doom, is Doom is better realized character then Mandarin. Dr. Doom at least has a personal reason for hating Richards, I don't know why Mandarin would hate Tony stark over any other hero out there. Mandarin and Iron Man's rivalry is pretty one note and not very compelling.


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Old 05-09-2014, 09:22 PM   #110
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Another problem with comparing Mandarin to Doom, is Doom is better realized character then Mandarin. Dr. Doom at least has a personal reason for hating Richards, I don't know why Mandarin would hate Tony stark over any other hero out there. Mandarin and Iron Man's rivalry is pretty one note and not very compelling.
Doom might be better realized, but he hasn't been successful as a movie villain; so far. i think Mandarin could out-do him. his backstory is more believable. and China is just more relevant than "Latveria." he doesn't need to hate Tony Stark. he just needs a goal that wouldn't jive with Tony's goals. that's why Reed and Doom are enemies; unless you believe that garbage about Doom wanting revenge for Reed pointing out a mistake (talk about one-note).

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Old 05-09-2014, 11:31 PM   #111
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Doom might be better realized, but he hasn't been successful as a movie villain; so far. i think Mandarin could out-do him. his backstory is more believable. and China is just more relevant than "Latveria." he doesn't need to hate Tony Stark. he just needs a goal that wouldn't jive with Tony's goals. that's why Reed and Doom are enemies; unless you believe that garbage about Doom wanting revenge for Reed pointing out a mistake (talk about one-note).
If you think Marvel would ever release a movie that is critical towards China (by saying the Chinese government would protect an international terrorist who was killing Americans) you would be dead wrong. China is too important a movie market for Marvel to do anything that would would give the Chinese government an excuse to ban it.

Because Latveria is fictional country, there is no one is going to get offended and ban the movie, if it puts Latveria in a bad light.

Plus I can't image the Chinese giving Mandarin diplomatic immunity, when in the comics he has shown no loyalty to the Chinese state. So just putting Mandarin into Doom's role doesn't really work.

At least Dr. Doom has somewhat defined characterization, he is jealous of Richards and thinks he can use his genius to make the world a better place. With Mandarin I'm not sure if he wants to take over the world because he wants to make the world a better place or because he is a monstrous psychopath who hates humanity and wants to punish people for his own harsh life.

Plus in a movie, Iron Man and the mandarin will need a far more interesting dynamic then they have in the comics, because to me it seems like a very generic hero vs. villain relationship. Batman hates Joker more then any other villain, Xavier respects Magneto more then any other foe, how does Tony Stark react differently to the Mandarin over any other villain he faces? A dynamic rivalry is what separates a arch nemesis from any other villain and just don't see a dynamic rivalry between Iron Man and the Mandarin in the comics.

Now granted, an adaptation can flesh out the Mandarin, give him a coherent ideology or a stable characterization, but make him an interesting character in his own right, rather then a Doom knock off. I still think the Mandarin's ethnic stereotype origins will make him a tough sell on the international market, so that is a big problem.

Here is a good question, how would you characterized Mandarin in a movie, considering his "all over the place" characterization in the comics?


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Old 05-20-2014, 05:12 PM   #112
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

Just create a new villain. Ive never really been a fan of Iron Mans rogue gallery anyway

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:13 PM   #113
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Just create a new villain. Ive never really been a fan of Iron Mans rogue gallery anyway
I disagree, they're weak, but have a lot of potencial with upgrades.

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Old 05-20-2014, 05:17 PM   #114
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I disagree, they're weak, but have a lot of potencial with upgrades.
That maybe true. The only one i really want to see is Ghost or maybe MODOK. All the best candidates have already been used. Hammer was wasted, Mandarin as well. Crimson Dynamo was another complete waste.

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Old 05-21-2014, 08:44 PM   #115
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That maybe true. The only one i really want to see is Ghost or maybe MODOK. All the best candidates have already been used.
i beg to differ. we haven't seen Living Laser, Madame Masque, or Spymaster.

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Old 05-22-2014, 03:09 PM   #116
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i beg to differ. we haven't seen Living Laser, Madame Masque, or Spymaster.
Living Laser is ok. Madame Masque is interesting, Spymaster too. I dont knwo if they would be enought to carry a full movie though.

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Old 05-22-2014, 04:25 PM   #117
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Well, if they had given more time to develop the script, Whiplash could have easily stood on his oun in Iron Man 2. With many of the ideas i see around, i think that Iron Man's rogues gallery has a lot of potencial, only problem is that many of them haven't been used properly in the comics yet.

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Old 05-23-2014, 05:24 PM   #118
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Well, if they had given more time to develop the script, Whiplash could have easily stood on his oun in Iron Man 2. With many of the ideas i see around, i think that Iron Man's rogues gallery has a lot of potencial, only problem is that many of them haven't been used properly in the comics yet.
Whiplash and Hammer had potential. They were both ruined though. I dont know if it was Marvel forcing Favreu to include more Avengers stuff or not, but Iron Man 2 is the biggest disappointment i've ever felt at a comic book movie.

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Old 05-28-2014, 11:20 PM   #119
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

MODOK, the Living Laser, Titanium Man, maybe a little Unicorn and Ultimo tossed in for good measure...

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Old 06-02-2014, 11:55 PM   #120
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I really think they need to follow up on the threads raised in "All Hail The King" and the news that Drew Pearce is working on the script seems to indicate that is the direction they'll take. I guess the way things stand right now we didn't get a proper "Mandarin" at all in IM3. Personally I don't have a problem with Killain as the main villain and can see that at one time maybe they may have intended for Killian to be the MCU's version of The Mandarin but with AHTK they are going in a different direction.

Now IM3 is a reworking of the Extremis arc with an impostor Mandarin as a smoke screen for the real villains but they took inspiration from an actual Mandarin who does infact exist within the MCU. They was a Cap story arc with an impostor Zemo from way back so it's not without precedence from a comic book writing perspective to have someone use the persona of another villain for one reason or another. In a strange way the "backpeddling" done on Mandarin is not unlike how they would fix/undo things that didn't work or weren't well received in the comic stories/universe. It's because of that I don't have a problem with the "handling" of the Mandarin thus far. Things haven't been totally ruined. Far from it.

So for IM4 I would like to see the Real Mandarin as the big bad, with his ten rings, Fin Fang Foom, the works. That said I feel they should also include some other characters as secondary sub-villains and/or henchmen not unlike Savin/Brandt in IM3, Kurse in TDW, and in TWS there was Rumlow/Rollins/Sitwell/Batroc/Zola. I'd like to something like maybe Titanium Man and Melter as henchmen/hired guns or something like that. I'd like to see more Armor/Mecha based villains after essentially none in IM3.

Imagine a fight with an armored opponent in large tunnel or warehouse sized terracotta kiln. I remember seeing this video/footage from China of someone firing some pottery in large tunnel like kiln and they were on top looking through the viewing port and inside it was just red/orange hot glowing. Imagine Tony in his armor along with maybe one or two adversaries trapped in such a kiln and they fight it out while slowly the integrity of the armors start failing with one opponents armor failing graphically/spectacularly to highlight the stakes/dangers. Something like that could be pretty intense.

I think with IM4 it's just a matter of when we'll get the film. The news that Pearce is already working on the story makes me think maybe we might get it sooner rather than later. Maybe they are thinking about putting it somewhere in Phase 3 although I think the whole fact that it's the fourth film could be nice way to lead into phase 4 with a familiar face/Character(if it's post re-cast). So I guess a way to look at it is before or after Avengers 3?

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Old 06-27-2014, 07:41 PM   #121
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I like the idea of using the real Mandarin as the MCU's equivilent of Dr. Doom and Latveria. And I have to wonder, would Ben Kingsley play the real Mandarin?

As for Radioactive Man, I think an updated version would work, in which he's pretty much a Chinese superhero. He and Iron Man would come into conflict at first but later team up to stop a threat to both nations.

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Old 06-29-2014, 02:04 AM   #122
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If you've seen the one shot you should probably know that kingsley wouldn't be the real mandarin considering he was already the fake. We can also assume he was assassinated by the end of it.

I hope to see the real mandarin in iron man 4, whenever it may come.

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Old 06-29-2014, 11:33 AM   #123
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If you've seen the one shot you should probably know that kingsley wouldn't be the real mandarin considering he was already the fake. We can also assume he was assassinated by the end of it.

I hope to see the real mandarin in iron man 4, whenever it may come.
-I was referencing that Trevor had been given extensive plastic surgery, presumably to look like the real Mandarin. In which the real Mandarin would look like Ben Knigsley.

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Old 06-29-2014, 07:37 PM   #124
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-Main mastermind villain-Ezekiel Stane or Count Nefaria.
-Madame Masque and/or The Ghost as his subordinates.

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Old 07-01-2014, 06:36 AM   #125
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Zeke Stane should be the villain. The REAL Mandarin should be a background presence who hires Stane to steal Tony's tech. Genre-wise it needs to be a technothriller.

Stane is not only out for vengeance but he also wishes to spreak Tony's inventions with the world, partially since he believes that knowledge should be free, partially since he wants to ensure that Tony Stark's legacy will never stop killing and that anyone in a cave with a box of scraps will soon be able to create a weapon of mass destruction.

Stane needs to be able to not only set up an inevitable future Armor Wars storyline but he bankrupts Tony Stark, driving him into becoming a homeless drunkard and he also screws over Mandarin and LIVES. Tony still manages to get his wealth back and Ghost is put in prison but it's but it's bittersweet since Zeke Stane gets away with EVERYTHING and his only consequence is living the rest of his life as a fugitive. Tony on the other hand, starts up a new company called Resilient.

I'd base the plot on Inevitable, Prelude to Armor Wars, The Five Nightmares, Stark Resiliant and Demon in a Bottle. I'd also put Ghost in the plot as Stane's accomplice. Honestly, Zeke Stane if done right has the potential to be the Loki of Phase 4.

Iron Man 5 would be a combination of the last three arcs of Matt Fraction's run, Haunted and Armor Wars. This time the actual Mandarin has captured both Tony and Zeke, pushed Stark tech onto the market and plans on overthrowing the Chinese Government. This would be a prison break film where once Tony and Zeke start their escape, their backup is a group of Chinese superheroes called the Ascendants.

Oh, and Mandarin has a damaged celestial in his custody that he's reprogrammed to serve him. The penultimate fight is against Ultimo before Tony squares off against Mandarin one-on-one.

Iron Man 6 would presumably have either Living Laser or Madame Masque as the big bad. Mostly since Fin Fang Foom would probably involve the Dragon Seed Saga and that would be Tony teaming up with the villain of his last film for a second time in a row. I'd save Foom for Phase 7 at the earliest.

I'd also bring Justin Hammer back as a villain after Iron Man 4 where Starktech has run wild and Justin Hammer is now the richest man in America so we can get Avengers: Dark Reign. Things like the fall of SHIELD and Thanos attacking Earth would set up Dark Reign in the MCU by destroying enough of the world that a convicted felon with deep pockets vowing to save humanity would actually seem like a good idea. And this time around the HAMMER acronym would finally make sense.


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