How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by Frodo

I think TDK is gonna be the film that most fans agree is the best of the saga, while TDKR is gonna be debated and moaned about by either side like BR has been by the Burton/Schumacer fans.

That said, the next generation of fans who have their own version of Batman films aren't gonna give a damn about the whole TDKR debate because they'll consider their version superior anyway.

I understand the intention of your post but please don't liken Rises to Batman & Robin. I've seen this happen several times since July and it's incredibly frustrating.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Maybe he means Batman Returns.

[Agent Orange]

Yeah, I was thinking that but he included "Schumacher" in the equation.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

I understand the intention of your post but please don't liken Rises to Batman & Robin. I've seen this happen several times since July and it's incredibly frustrating.

I meant Batman Returns. Batman and Robin is B&R. Lol.

I included Schumacer because his films were part of the Burton/Schumacer era , and fans of both filmmakers often debated whether Batman Returns was "Good " or not. And truth be told , the debates about TDKR pale in comparison to the debates about Batman Returns. Overall the view of TDKR has seemed be from "It could have been better" to "It was Amazing". With BR you had/have, a real divide with totally opposite views about whether its good or not.

Either way , my point is that fans will probably argue about the quality of TDKR just as the previous generation argued about Batman Returns. Ultimately though , the next generation will probably think their version, assuming its good, rocks , and that Nolan's version is lame. Warrented or not , that's usualy what happens as each new generation of people have their own version of the character.

[Kane52630]

Oh?

[Ryan]

Despite my frustrations with TDKR, I'd still watch it hands down over any of the earlier Bat films and I am from the Burton generation

[Eros]

Also a majority of star wars fans of any age, view the new movies as vastly inferior to the classic ones. which ofcourse has more to do with the prequels lack of proper direction,writing,acting etc etc.

[Frodo]

I'm from the Burton generation too. I prefer B89 to TDKR, but that's about it in terms of the Nolan films. It was the film that got me into Batman in general so I have a soft spot for it. Its got flaws up and down , but I still love it. I loved BF when it came out but now it seems so dated and loud. BR is iffy to me as well , but Michelle is so great and she's got great chemistry with Keaton. B&R is a joke ,so I don't get worked up about it one way or the other.

The truth is , the only the that i'm usually stunned by is how bitter and angry people get over arguing over any of the films online in general. In the end, these are just movies, not issues of war and peace. Then again , it is the internet so subjects like this are always blown out of proportion, and argued as if it were the end of the world.

[The Joker]

I love Batman Returns as a movie, but as a Batman movie it's barely recognizable as one because the characters are all so different from their comic counterparts. It's sheer Tim Burton.

Originally Posted by Frodo

I think TDK is gonna be the film that most fans agree is the best of the saga, while TDKR is gonna be debated and moaned about by either side like BR has been by the Burton/Schumacer fans.

I agree. Fans were never divided over BB and TDK like they are over TDKR.

[Baramos]

The last couple of years more and more people have begun complaining about The Dark Knight. Obviously it had (a few) critics at the time of release but now 4 years later you really have people picking it apart, for some reason.

I think it's because they've seen it 100 times, suddenly all the plot holes are much more apparent than the first few viewings.

[Ryan]

For me it was the opposite. I instantly loved BB. When I first saw TDK, I was sort of put off by the fact that the universe that was created and shown in BB was barely recognizable in TDK. Over repeated viewings though, I grew to love the difference. BB was the film that I had hoped 89 would have been. BB gave me, what I had known all along, that Batman was one cool character.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I love Batman Returns as a movie, but as a Batman movie it's barely recognizable as one because the characters are all so different from their comic counterparts. It's sheer Tim Burton.



I agree. Fans were never divided over BB and TDK like they are over TDKR.

It will start with TDKR. When we get a reboot, all three will become picked apart.

[Frodo]

Its kinda what happens in general with these kind of films once new generations look at the older stuff and compare it to newer versions. Its already happened with the Webb ASM vs Raimi's Spiderman trilogy.

As someone who was already in my early 20's when the Raimi trilogy was released , I personally dont see a drastic difference between the two francises beyond slight changes here and there. However ,to the younger fans of the Webb francise ,the two versions are worlds apart. That's why I think age and perspective really has alot to do with how certain fans look ,and will look, at the Nolan series.

[shauner111]

Worlds apart my ass! If people think that (dont care what age they are) they're not very bright.

Webb did things better than Raimi and vice versa. But there's not a massive difference between the two. There might be an inside look at Peters childhood in this new trilogy than Raimis but everything else is minor changes. Like organic webs to a web shooting device. Gwen before MJ instead of the other way around. More build on the Osborns instead of giving it to the audience right away. A glimpse at the wrestling ring instead of a full-on sequence. More smart-ass comments from Spidey instead of just a couple here or there. Those are ALL very small changes. Nothing drastic at all. The level changes but they're ALL present in both versions. It's still the same thing over again (and yes i enjoyed Webbs movie quite a bit so im no Raimi supporter).

But as for Nolans movies..

The reboot is going to be extremely different from this trilogy. Even the look of Gotham im sure. A shared universe. New villains who weren't even hinted at in TDK Trilogy. So those fans will have a better reason for seperating the two universes/sets of films. Whether they knock them down or not, they will have a much better excuse than the Spidey fans.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by Baramos

The last couple of years more and more people have begun complaining about The Dark Knight. Obviously it had (a few) critics at the time of release but now 4 years later you really have people picking it apart, for some reason.

I think it's because they've seen it 100 times, suddenly all the plot holes are much more apparent than the first few viewings.

Fan communities on the internet have been picking apart The Dark Knight ever since 2008. This isn't a new phenomenon. The only Nolan Batman movie that is relatively impervious to scorn amongst Batman fans is Batman Begins but that film has it's detractors amongst film critics and fans who cling to the Burton pictures.

[Excelsior.]

I don't think the people who are fans of this franchise will hate on it once the reboot comes out. Only those that have either been underwhelmed by the films or the portrayal of Batman in the films. Those of the former will understandably prop up the reboot over Nolan's Batman even if as a film they are superior and those of the latter might acknowledge Nolan's Batman as better films but consider the reboot better portraits of the character itself like some Spidey fans consider Raimi films as being better but having a worse Spider-man.

I'm just not inclined to think there will be some mass conspiracy followed by some mass migration of previous Nolan Batman like fanclub subscribers to Nolan Batman hate fanclub.

[shauner111]

Even Begins had people bashing it once TDK came out. On how Dark Knight was so much better. Of course since TDKR was about to come out, Begins is suddenly the ultimate Batman movie. Which is how it was perceived before the sequel happened.

Things move in cycles.

Batman Returns had the mixed response and once Batman & Robin butchered everything, people couldnt stop talking about how BOTH of Burtons movies were pure gold in comparison. Im sure Batman Forever was lumped into every discussion along with B&R. Even though at the time of its release there were a heck of a lot of ppl who thought Forever was the best Batman movie since 89'.

TDKR will be embraced when (or if) the reboot crashes. Or better yet, even if they're cool but the casting is rather awful. That's when you'll see more and more people coming out from their caves to speak on behalf of Rises and the trilogy as a whole. Even TDK will be bashed in the coming years if say a new Joker comes along and blows peoples minds. Or if a longer lasting Two-Face makes his way to the big screen. I mean, during the Begins/TDK era the amount of Burton haters was extreme. Only now are we starting to hear more praise on Batman 89. More than we've heard in 10 + years. At least this is what im hearing.

[Excelsior.]

Even Begins had people bashing it once TDK came out. On how Dark Knight was so much better. Of course since TDKR was about to come out, Begins is suddenly the ultimate Batman movie. Which is how it was perceived before the sequel happened.

But are these being said by the same people? It's important to recognize that the internet forums are populated by a vast amount of individuals with very different, sometimes opposite mindsets and opinons. One mustn't treat it as a singular, monolithic entity expressing only one opinion. Then one is susceptible to think that the Internet is consistently contradictory, even schizophrenic.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by shauner111

Even Begins had people bashing it once TDK came out. On how Dark Knight was so much better. Of course since TDKR was about to come out, Begins is suddenly the ultimate Batman movie. Which is how it was perceived before the sequel happened.

Things move in cycles.

Batman Returns had the mixed response and once Batman & Robin butchered everything, people couldnt stop talking about how BOTH of Burtons movies were pure gold in comparison. Im sure Batman Forever was lumped into every discussion along with B&R. Even though at the time of its release there were a heck of a lot of ppl who thought Forever was the best Batman movie since 89'.

TDKR will be embraced when (or if) the reboot crashes.

Good Points. After B&R everything Burton did was gold and everything Schumacer did was trash. But, As you pointed out , BF was pretty popular with the GA at least, and was considered the one of the better Batman films since 89. That was one of the reasons people were pretty hyped for B&R when it came it.

Then once everyone and their dog realized how bad it was , then the narrative among alot of fans shifted to " BF was bad too ,but the Burton films got it right". The truth is BR did get a mixed response from the GA ,and its not like the all the fans were universally pleased with it at the time either. However , it kinda became good or better than Schumacer , by default . So in a sense, whatever comes after the Nolan saga my influence how its viewed.

[TDK elbowstrike]

I think IF the reboot is a success, Nolans trilogy will get a few more detractors. It really does seem to be a trend where comic book movies are concerned. Even if we get everything we want from the reboot, (e.g. more detective work, villains like Clayface and Croc, no 8 year absence from crime-fighting) I will still always LOVE Nolans trilogy.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I love Batman Returns as a movie, but as a Batman movie it's barely recognizable as one because the characters are all so different from their comic counterparts. It's sheer Tim Burton.

Agreed. '89 Batman was a Batman film directed by Tim Burton. Batman Returns was a Tim Burton Batman film.

I agree. Fans were never divided over BB and TDK like they are over TDKR.

This...

Originally Posted by DACrowe

It will start with TDKR. When we get a reboot, all three will become picked apart.

...then this.

I still don't understand the much division of TDKR, and I never will and that will only intensify when the complaints covers the entire trilogy. Sure, it can be mentioned of how Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy is held as since the reboot of TAS-M, but I'm still baffled that Spider-Man 2 gets picked apart by fans(mostly Raimi haters...and don't you worry...Nolan haters are waiting until the Batman reboot ).

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Agreed. '89 Batman was a Batman film directed by Tim Burton. Batman Returns was a Tim Burton Batman film.



This...



...then this.

I still don't understand the much division of TDKR, and I never will and that will only intensify when the complaints covers the entire trilogy. Sure, it can be mentioned of how Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy is held as since the reboot of TAS-M, but I'm still baffled that Spider-Man 2 gets picked apart by fans(mostly Raimi haters...and don't you worry...Nolan haters are waiting until the Batman reboot ).

Honestly, I never understood the vast amount of love SM2 got. Though one thing I will agree with, nobody started ripping on it that much until after SM3. I know, because when I first joined I voiced a few of my complaints about SM2 and got flamed to holy hell and back. But all of sudden, SM3 comes out and tons of people agreed with me. Literally almost overnight.

I will say this, over time we do discover flaws in films as the sheen wears off. But also, a lot of people, especially comic fans, feel the need to rip apart the old in order to build up the new, which is unfortunate.

Another big thing that plays a huge role (in the internet and fan community) is hype. Hype can kill a movie. TDKR had a lot of hype, in some cases, nearly impossible to live up to, because I think many wanted it to surpass or be equal to TDK, and let's be honest, a film as big as TDK (one that is as popularly and critically acclaimed) happens maybe twice a decade.

And when TDKR ended up only being very good and not amazing, people reacted more harshly too it then they would have otherwise. It's happened in other cases. Look at Spider-man 3. As someone who will openly talk about how SM2 severly dissappointed him, I didn't think SM3 was horrible. I didn't think it was good, but it wasn't horrible. However, when it came out, you had people on here calling it one of the worst movies ever made, which is ridiculous! It's not even one of the worst comic book films ever made!

However, I walked into that film with very low expectations. SM2 had already shown me I wouldn't get what I wanted out of a Spider-man movie with Raimi directing, and as such, I wasn't at super hype level. (Until TDK, SM3 easily had the award of the most anticipated film on the hype, ever.) After seeing the movie, I didn't think it was all that great, but I didn't think it was horrible.

In short, hype causes people to massively overreact. And we saw that to a small extent with TDKR.

[Asteroid-Man]

I didn't notice how bad the first two SM films were until after SM3 came out because I thought "surely 1 and 2 weren't this bad!" and I watched them again. Boy was I wrong.

[CapedCrusader14]

Yeah the last time I watch SM & SM2 I was kind of shocked at how badly they've aged. Wasn't really an enjoyable experience.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by shauner111

Even Begins had people bashing it once TDK came out. On how Dark Knight was so much better. Of course since TDKR was about to come out, Begins is suddenly the ultimate Batman movie. Which is how it was perceived before the sequel happened.

I've never noticed that trend. Begins was well received by the fan community, but the audiences were not exactly falling all over themselves for it. It didn't make a killing at the box office, especially compared to the other big name comic book movies around that time. I remember Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2 were still more popular than it back in '05. With TDK it was a whole different experience not seen with any comic book movie since Batmania in 1989.

That's where the bulk of any TDK criticisms came from. The insane popularity and hype over the movie was astronomical. First CBM movie to make a billion. First comic book villain to win an Oscar. All of Hollywood, audiences, critics, fanboys going nuts over it.

After TDKR, The Dark Knight is still seen as the best Batman movie by the consensus. Begins never had that title once TDK came out, and it still doesn't. When Rises came out, nobody was asking will it out do Begins. TDK was the one to beat. For the general consensus, it still is. Begins never left an impact and legacy like this in a short space of time;

http://www.empireonline.com/features...-knight-effect

http://www.cleveland.com/movies/inde...says_dark.html

http://collider.com/sam-mendes-skyfa...knight/204523/

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=89076

http://nerdbastards.com/2012/05/02/k...es-in-general/

And I don't see TDKR doing so either.