How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

Honestly, I never understood the vast amount of love SM2 got. Though one thing I will agree with, nobody started ripping on it that much until after SM3. I know, because when I first joined I voiced a few of my complaints about SM2 and got flamed to holy hell and back. But all of sudden, SM3 comes out and tons of people agreed with me. Literally almost overnight.

I will say this, over time we do discover flaws in films as the sheen wears off. But also, a lot of people, especially comic fans, feel the need to rip apart the old in order to build up the new, which is unfortunate.

Another big thing that plays a huge role (in the internet and fan community) is hype. Hype can kill a movie. TDKR had a lot of hype, in some cases, nearly impossible to live up to, because I think many wanted it to surpass or be equal to TDK, and let's be honest, a film as big as TDK (one that is as popularly and critically acclaimed) happens maybe twice a decade.

And when TDKR ended up only being very good and not amazing, people reacted more harshly too it then they would have otherwise. It's happened in other cases. Look at Spider-man 3. As someone who will openly talk about how SM2 severly dissappointed him, I didn't think SM3 was horrible. I didn't think it was good, but it wasn't horrible. However, when it came out, you had people on here calling it one of the worst movies ever made, which is ridiculous! It's not even one of the worst comic book films ever made!

However, I walked into that film with very low expectations. SM2 had already shown me I wouldn't get what I wanted out of a Spider-man movie with Raimi directing, and as such, I wasn't at super hype level. (Until TDK, SM3 easily had the award of the most anticipated film on the hype, ever.) After seeing the movie, I didn't think it was all that great, but I didn't think it was horrible.

In short, hype causes people to massively overreact. And we saw that to a small extent with TDKR.

Excellent post. Count me in amongst those who were never really blown away by SM2 and Raimi's trilogy by extension. Out of curiosity, what did you think of TASM? Was it closer to the Spidey movie you wanted?

Regarding the hype phenomena, I've noticed it first hand with myself. Following the production of TDKR on these boards as obsessively as I did definitely had an impact on how I viewed the movie, especially after the first time I saw it in cinemas.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

Excellent post. Count me in amongst those who were never really blown away by SM2 and Raimi's trilogy by extension. Out of curiosity, what did you think of TASM? Was it closer to the Spidey movie you wanted?

Regarding the hype phenomena, I've noticed it first hand with myself. Following the production of TDKR on these boards as obsessively as I did definitely had an impact on how I viewed the movie, especially after the first time I saw it in cinemas.

Seperating my comic fan from my film fan; I can admit that SM2 is a more complete film then ASM is. And I understand why some people still like it as much as they do. However, I'm such a huge Spidey nerd that I never enjoyed SM2 largely because of how some of my favorite characters were portrayed in it.

ASM on the other hand, was much, much, much closer to what I wanted in terms of PP/Spidey, and the interactions between Gwen and Pete were miles ahead of Pete and MJ in the old trilogy (largely because MJ was written so horribly). So I enjoyed ASM quite a bit more. However, I can concede that it suffered from poor editing, and would have been a more complete film had they included many of the scenes they ended up cutting.

And you should have seen this place during SM3 and TDK. I still haven't seen a film that reaches those hype levels, even TDKR. SM3 was huge, and then TDK surpassed it. The really incredible thing about TDK was that it actually lived up to, and surpassed most of the hype expected for it. I was lucky in that regard, because it was the most involved I was in any pre-film hype, and I was still blown away despite my massive expectations. I honestly don't expect that to happen again in my lifetime.

Also, I've tried not to get myself as hyped up as I did in the past, simply because I've seen how irrationally people react when they're dissappointed in something they've been building up for so long.

[Kahran Ramsus]

Originally Posted by The Joker

After TDKR, The Dark Knight is still seen as the best Batman movie by the consensus. Begins never had that title once TDK came out, and it still doesn't. When Rises came out, nobody was asking will it out do Begins. TDK was the one to beat. For the general consensus, it still is. Begins never left an impact and legacy like this in a short space of time;

I did. I knew it had no chance of equalling TDK, which I viewed as being probably the best possible Batman story. There was no room left for improvement. If you look at the entire history of film there are only a handful of times that a film as good as TDK was followed by a film just as good or better. Frankenstein/Bride of Frankenstein, From Russia with Love/Goldfinger, the Leone westerns, Godfather I & II, Star Wars/Empire Strikes Back, and that's about it in 100 years. It just wasn't realistically going to happen. I always compared TDKR to BB, not TDK.

[The Eradicator]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I've never noticed that trend. Begins was well received by the fan community, but the audiences were not exactly falling all over themselves for it. It didn't make a killing at the box office, especially compared to the other big name comic book movies around that time. I remember Spider-Man 2 and X-Men 2 were still more popular than it back in '05. With TDK it was a whole different experience not seen with any comic book movie since Batmania in 1989.

Well to be fair to Batman Begins, it was following up the atrocious Batman & Robin. BB had the double hurdle of not only cleaning the taste of B&R out of everyone's mouth, but being the first successful reboot of a comic book franchise.

Considering the mediocre level of marketing and the relatively modest opening weekend, BB had GREAT legs and even surpassed WB's expectations to a degree by reaching the 200 million mark domestically. And the film pretty much built up its fanbase amongst casual moviegoers on DVD (BB's DVD sales were excellent).

And I think BB does have a certain legacy to a degree - it's the one film that helped initiate the reboot craze in Hollywood, since it proved in execution that the idea of a reboot was perfectly feasible.

I still prefer it over TDK, and since it did sort of set up the foundation for what happened in TDK, it will always be looked at more fondly than TDKR, to a degree. TDKR was always going to have it tough, since it was following up such a huge phenomenon.

[Excelsior.]

BB does have a legacy. It has made the (now mostly unnecessary and greedy) Reboot a profitable venture. Plus, Iron Man director Favreau and Wolverine director whateverhisnameis cited it as major influences.

[The Eradicator]

Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus

I knew it had no chance of equalling TDK, which I viewed as being probably the best possible Batman story. There was no room left for improvement. If you look at the entire history of film there are only a handful of times that a film as good as TDK was followed by a film just as good or better. Frankenstein/Bride of Frankenstein, From Russia with Love/Goldfinger, the Leone westerns, Godfather I & II, Star Wars/Empire Strikes Back, and that's about it in 100 years. It just wasn't realistically going to happen. I always compared TDKR to BB, not TDK.

I think TDKR had all the ingredients to surpass TDK, but its main failing was in its execution of the ideas within the story. A truly superior threequel is very rare indeed, but TDKR definitely had the potential to be another Toy Story 3 (which is probably the best threequel in history, to date).

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus

I did. I knew it had no chance of equalling TDK, which I viewed as being probably the best possible Batman story. There was no room left for improvement. If you look at the entire history of film there are only a handful of times that a film as good as TDK was followed by a film just as good or better. Frankenstein/Bride of Frankenstein, From Russia with Love/Goldfinger, the Leone westerns, Godfather I & II, Star Wars/Empire Strikes Back, and that's about it in 100 years. It just wasn't realistically going to happen. I always compared TDKR to BB, not TDK.

Ah well that's not quite what I meant. You were asking it from the perspective of not believing TDK could be topped. I'm talking about people wondering could it be the best one yet, meaning will it be better than TDK.

Originally Posted by The Eradicator

Well to be fair to Batman Begins, it was following up the atrocious Batman & Robin. BB had the double hurdle of not only cleaning the taste of B&R out of everyone's mouth, but being the first successful reboot of a comic book franchise.

I don't buy the Batman and Robin excuse for a minute. Batman and Robin was way back in 1997. Eight years ago. It was not the only Batman movie we'd ever gotten either. People remember the Tim Burton movies more fondly than either of Schumacher's.

Not to mention Batman Begins was a different cast, different director than any of the old Batman movies. It's Batman. He is a product name all by himself. It should sell itself. It came out in an era where comic book movies were cool again. If bad memories of the last movie we got related to this character were all it took then I think The Amazing Spider-Man would have got a luke warm reception at the box office. It came out 5 years after Raimi's movies, the last one being the less than favorable Spider-Man 3, redoing the origin story again and all, but it was a big critical and financial success because it's Spider-Man. Like with Batman, just being a famous and popular hero name is enough to put bums in seats.

The reboot reason is the only reason why I think it didn't set the box office on fire and enthrall audiences as much.

Considering the mediocre level of marketing and the relatively modest opening weekend, BB had GREAT legs and even surpassed WB's expectations to a degree by reaching the 200 million mark domestically. And the film pretty much built up its fanbase amongst casual moviegoers on DVD (BB's DVD sales were excellent).

But nothing even close to the fanbase size TDK, or Raimi's Spider-Man, or even the Singer X-Men movies had garnered.

That's the point.

And I think BB does have a certain legacy to a degree - it's the one film that helped initiate the reboot craze in Hollywood, since it proved in execution that the idea of a reboot was perfectly feasible.

I never said it had no legacy. I said it didn't have a legacy or impact nearly as strong as TDK's has had. And I'm right. Unless there's proof of otherwise?

[Kahran Ramsus]

Back in 2005 there was very much an attitude of 'Not another Batman movie!' among the general populace. As much as people on here disliked Spider-Man 3, it wasn't nearly as hated as Batman & Robin was. Additionally, in many ways TASM disappointed at the box office. It was the lowest grossing Spider-Man movie despite the advantage of inflation and higher 3D prices. So much more was expected from TASM than what it delivered. It also got crushed by TDKR and The Avengers.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

Seperating my comic fan from my film fan; I can admit that SM2 is a more complete film then ASM is. And I understand why some people still like it as much as they do. However, I'm such a huge Spidey nerd that I never enjoyed SM2 largely because of how some of my favorite characters were portrayed in it.

ASM on the other hand, was much, much, much closer to what I wanted in terms of PP/Spidey, and the interactions between Gwen and Pete were miles ahead of Pete and MJ in the old trilogy (largely because MJ was written so horribly). So I enjoyed ASM quite a bit more. However, I can concede that it suffered from poor editing, and would have been a more complete film had they included many of the scenes they ended up cutting.

Agreed with the bolded part.

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

And you should have seen this place during SM3 and TDK. I still haven't seen a film that reaches those hype levels, even TDKR. SM3 was huge, and then TDK surpassed it. The really incredible thing about TDK was that it actually lived up to, and surpassed most of the hype expected for it. I was lucky in that regard, because it was the most involved I was in any pre-film hype, and I was still blown away despite my massive expectations. I honestly don't expect that to happen again in my lifetime.

Heh, I shudder to think how this place was back then.

I was mostly insulated from TDK's hype by my general disinterest in Batman movie adaptations back then. Which is fortunate in a way, because I think hyping up TDKR was one of the main reasons it disappointed me in some parts. Then again, considering TDK's quality, perhaps my experience would've been similar to your's had I been part of the hype.

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

Also, I've tried not to get myself as hyped up as I did in the past, simply because I've seen how irrationally people react when they're dissappointed in something they've been building up for so long.

Wise policy.

Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus

Back in 2005 there was very much an attitude of 'Not another Batman movie!' among the general populace. As much as people on here disliked Spider-Man 3, it wasn't nearly as hated as Batman & Robin was. Additionally, in many ways TASM disappointed at the box office. It was the lowest grossing Spider-Man movie despite the advantage of inflation and higher 3D prices. So much more was expected from TASM than what it delivered. It also got crushed by TDKR and The Avengers.

I can attest to that. Schumacher's debacles, as well as Burton's movies to some extent had gotten me really disinterested in another Batman on film adaptation. So much so that I didn't get to see BB until 2008, after seeing TDK in cinemas.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I don't buy the Batman and Robin excuse for a minute. Batman and Robin was way back in 1997. Eight years ago. It was not the only Batman movie we'd ever gotten either. People remember the Tim Burton movies more fondly than either of Schumacher's.

Not to mention Batman Begins was a different cast, different director than any of the old Batman movies. It's Batman. He is a product name all by himself. It should sell itself. It came out in an era where comic book movies were cool again. If bad memories of the last movie we got related to this character were all it took then I think The Amazing Spider-Man would have got a luke warm reception at the box office. It came out 5 years after Raimi's movies, the last one being the less than favorable Spider-Man 3, redoing the origin story again and all, but it was a big critical and financial success because it's Spider-Man. Like with Batman, just being a famous and popular hero name is enough to put bums in seats.

This is one of those "this is how my friends reacted" examples, which I know in no way indicates a wide majority, but anyways...

Back in 04/05 I was a freshmen in Highschool and when the BB trailers came out, there actually was a lot of "another Batman movie? The last one sucked..." etc etc. And for the generation that was teenagers in 2005, BF and B&R was remembered much better then the old Burton ones, because we were right in the midst of our childhood then. The Burton films came out right before, or right in the years we were born. I remember dressing up as the Joker that halloween (a classic/Nicholson style Joker) and people were asking me "is that the Riddler?" Mostly because Batman Forever was still the film that the majority of my non-comic friends remembered. Actually, many of them really liked that movie, it was B&R they disliked.

So I still think that was around. But one thing I will say, the marketing wasn't all that great for Begins. And then there was the added confusion of people wondering if it was a prequel to the old franchise. I remember people on here posting videos of news stations reporting it as a prequel. So I think that hurt the awareness as well.

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

Heh, I shudder to think how this place was back then.

I was mostly insulated from TDK's hype by my general disinterest in Batman movie adaptations back then. Which is fortunate in a way, because I think hyping up TDKR was one of the main reasons it disappointed me in some parts. Then again, considering TDK's quality, perhaps my experience would've been similar to your's had I been part of the hype

There were some hypers on here who did overhype themselves for TDK I think, but largely it lived up to the massive amount of fan expectation. No small task when you think about it, because it was coming off Batman Begins, which many comic fans were already touting as the "BEST COMIC FILM EVAHHHHH!!!" And then the added pressure of the Joker appearing on screen in live action for the first time in nearly 20 years, with an actor who came completely out of left field and who tragically died. Somehow it lived up to all of that, which was no small feat.

But the hype was pretty darn crazy back then. You should have seen some of the boards. The overreactions to Bane and Catwoman the past few years were nothing compared to the massive arguments that were spawned because of Heath's casting, the first offical Joker pic, and the dredded perma-white debate.

Still, it made for some interesting times. And the boards were always massively full.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

This is one of those "this is how my friends reacted" examples, which I know in no way indicates a wide majority, but anyways...

Back in 04/05 I was a freshmen in Highschool and when the BB trailers came out, there actually was a lot of "another Batman movie? The last one sucked..." etc etc. And for the generation that was teenagers in 2005, BF and B&R was remembered much better then the old Burton ones, because we were right in the midst of our childhood then. The Burton films came out right before, or right in the years we were born. I remember dressing up as the Joker that halloween (a classic/Nicholson style Joker) and people were asking me "is that the Riddler?" Mostly because Batman Forever was still the film that the majority of my non-comic friends remembered. Actually, many of them really liked that movie, it was B&R they disliked.

Even if we hypthetically took your High School friend as an example of the consensus, that's three out of the four Batman movies being liked since you say Forever was really liked by them, too.

This is why among other reasons I don't buy into the notion that one bad movie 8 years was enough to drive people away from seeing a brand new Batman movie, with a whole different cast and director, in an era where comic book movies were cool and popular again.

But one thing I will say, the marketing wasn't all that great for Begins. And then there was the added confusion of people wondering if it was a prequel to the old franchise. I remember people on here posting videos of news stations reporting it as a prequel. So I think that hurt the awareness as well.

http://www.filmthreat.com/features/1479/

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

Honestly, I never understood the vast amount of love SM2 got. Though one thing I will agree with, nobody started ripping on it that much until after SM3. I know, because when I first joined I voiced a few of my complaints about SM2 and got flamed to holy hell and back. But all of sudden, SM3 comes out and tons of people agreed with me. Literally almost overnight.

I will say this, over time we do discover flaws in films as the sheen wears off. But also, a lot of people, especially comic fans, feel the need to rip apart the old in order to build up the new, which is unfortunate.

Another big thing that plays a huge role (in the internet and fan community) is hype. Hype can kill a movie. TDKR had a lot of hype, in some cases, nearly impossible to live up to, because I think many wanted it to surpass or be equal to TDK, and let's be honest, a film as big as TDK (one that is as popularly and critically acclaimed) happens maybe twice a decade.

And when TDKR ended up only being very good and not amazing, people reacted more harshly too it then they would have otherwise. It's happened in other cases. Look at Spider-man 3. As someone who will openly talk about how SM2 severly dissappointed him, I didn't think SM3 was horrible. I didn't think it was good, but it wasn't horrible. However, when it came out, you had people on here calling it one of the worst movies ever made, which is ridiculous! It's not even one of the worst comic book films ever made!

However, I walked into that film with very low expectations. SM2 had already shown me I wouldn't get what I wanted out of a Spider-man movie with Raimi directing, and as such, I wasn't at super hype level. (Until TDK, SM3 easily had the award of the most anticipated film on the hype, ever.) After seeing the movie, I didn't think it was all that great, but I didn't think it was horrible.

In short, hype causes people to massively overreact. And we saw that to a small extent with TDKR.

You bring a great point , especially because i never understood the backlash Spidey 3 got. I say this contrary to you , because i loved Spiderman 2 , and the third one is not that different. The one who sticks like a sore thumb is the first one , which doesn't even looks like a Raimi movie. His style (the form) gets more presence with the sequels , maybe that's why i like them.

I think a lot have to do with the internet. It changed things. Forever . There's no going back ( ). I remember reading since 2006 the population on the internet...doubled. That's monstrous. Things get more scrutinized. More people acess other peoples opinions. They absorb a lot stuff they read , even if that wasn't their opinion. Its that sort of consensus things that happen. If 6 guys in a row say they dislike something , the seventh one might not know what the hell they are talking about but the probability he says he also disliked it , its huge. And you see this sort of behavior regarding a lot of movies since this internet boom (specially big blockbusters , tdk is probably the exception) , and people communicate very easily with each other about cinema. Im not talking about a very casual audience that sees that movie and that's it. The people who end up discussing it a little bit , read about it. Spiderman 2 was almost from another era.

I can say i'll always love what Raimi did with those movies. They are not perfect. Nowhere near that. But they have a very distinct style , they capture a very specific side of the comics. There's a romantic aspect of the adaption , i think Raimi nailed it. His work , Donner , Burton and Nolan are the landmarks in the genre.

[BatLobsterRises]

I had a similar experience getting all my friends interested in Begins Infinity9999x. Every single one of them was skeptical back in 2004. If they weren't suspiciously asking, "Another Batman movie?", they were lukewarm and taking a "wait and see" approach. Nobody was excited right from the get go unless you were already a HUGE Batman fan. Only in my experience, both Schumacher movies were considered bad. I think the trailers showed that the movie was going to be a lot different and potentially good, but I still feel that people were a bit thrown off by the whole reboot concept since it had never really been done before. I mean restarting the whole series could be seen as the ultimate cash-grab, if you're really cynical about that stuff.

So yeah, superhero movies were "in" again, but I definitely think Batman had to prove himself cinematically in a lot of people's eyes to join "the club" again. Which is why I think so many people discovered that movie on DVD.

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think that the horrible Catwoman movie that came out a year earlier hurt Batman Begins too, in addition to the Shumacher films. There were obviously still a lot of Batman fans around, but the brand was at about its lowest point right before Batman Begins came out.

[The Joker]

Now the Catwoman movie hurting Batman Begins I can believe. Didn't even think of that since Batman wasn't in it, and Berry's Catwoman wasn't even in Gotham City or Selina Kyle.

[Anno_Domini]

Off topic:

Even though Berry's Catwoman isn't in Gotham City, I think a Selina Kyle Catwoman with Anne Hathaway could definitely be placed in a different city as a prequel to TDKR if a film is ever made. I believe her criminal records state Selina being in Detroit and Los Angeles during her life. Wonder if that would ever work.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Even if we hypthetically took your High School friend as an example of the consensus, that's three out of the four Batman movies being liked since you say Forever was really liked by them, too.

This is why among other reasons I don't buy into the notion that one bad movie 8 years was enough to drive people away from seeing a brand new Batman movie, with a whole different cast and director, in an era where comic book movies were cool and popular again.



http://www.filmthreat.com/features/1479/

I don't know man, you'd be surprised how much one really, really, really bad film can effect the genre. You have to remember, for most of the people our age, the only Bat-films they remembered were BF and B&R. Most of my friends had never watched, or barely remembered the Burton Batman films, because they were too young. And on the whole they weren't huge comic nuts like I was.

And B&R was just really bad. So people were pretty skeptical about BB. And in terms of the marketing thing, maybe we'll just have to chalk it up to the general public being somewhat lazy in looking into the facts. Because I remember tons of people thinking it was a prequel to the old series. I'm sure you'll remember the threads on here where people posted actual snippets from news stations reporting it as a prequel. Those were back in your Doc Ock user name days I believe

[shauner111]

For me (im 24), everybody my age whether they're real Batfans or not, saw the Burton movies when they were kids. As well as Batman Forever. Some may not remember B&R but most of them probably do too. Actually ive never met anybody my age who hasnt seen Batman 89' or Batman Returns when they were small.

I dont remember people being skeptical about Batman Begins, like it would fail or something. I just dont remember a lot of people even knowing it existed. When it came out it was more under the radar. I went through all of the 2000s not reading or seeing anything Batman related until 2005. I went to see Batman Begins out of nowhere, without being aware of a trailer, a poster. Without seeing any of the castlist. Nothing. I walked into the cinema one night with friends to see a movie but thinking it was just going to be a Bruce Wayne film where he puts the cowl on for the first time at the end of the movie LOL. That friggin movie shocked the hell out of me. It made me go back 4 more times that summer.

8 years is more than enough time to erase what happened with a past franchise. At least it was for me. I forgot about Batman & Robin less than 2 years after the fact and only thought about it again after watching Begins. Because i realized how goofy every other comic book movie seemed to me once i saw it. So you start thinking about them all suddenly.

[Dark Guardian]

In answer to the question in the thread's title...

...

About that long.

[Agent Orange]

Batman Begins' box office is irrelevant. The franchise was still gasping for air after Schumacher butchered it and people were weary of the character and the franchise in general. It enjoyed MASSIVE success on DVD. I remember reading an article in 2006 about how it was the highest selling DVD of 2005 ahead of Revenge of the Sith and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

That's why I always scoff when people cite Ledger's performance as the sole reason for TDK's success. Batman Begins got people excited when they discovered it on DVD.

[intothevoid]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Batman Begins' box office is irrelevant. The franchise was still gasping for air after Schumacher butchered it and people were weary of the character and the franchise in general. It enjoyed MASSIVE success on DVD. I remember reading an article in 2006 about how it was the highest selling DVD of 2005 ahead of Revenge of the Sith and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

That's why I always scoff when people cite Ledger's performance as the sole reason for TDK's success. Batman Begins got people excited when they discovered it on DVD.

Yupp
Exactly
.........

[Batman jr.]

They will make it more "fun" I think.

[Nevincer]

How long? There's always been a pretty hefty crowd of people who disliked the Nolan take, I suppose there'll be more taking part when the reboot is announced though. Personally I'm not even all that interested in the reboot, I have my own problems with but it got just enough right that I'm not stoked to see it all done over especially when there'll be parts I loved inevitably done worse to differ from it.

[Squaremaster316]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

Oh, definitely. If Raimi's Spiderman, Donner's Superman, Burton's Batman and Singer's X-Men franchises weren't safe from the ugly turn, then no franchise is safe. Whedon's The Avengers is absolutely gonna receive backlash a decade from now. The sequel is going to garner a more polarizing reaction from fans.

Eh?

The Burton films got backlash, and the Raimi films to some extent, but when did the other two receive that type of backlash? Almost everyone calls them the best films of their respective franchises.

[GothamInAshes]

well to me, realistically, its gonna be the week of release when people actually see it. but seeing the polls i can understand that the announcements are when people will be unhappy as am i. especially when i heard they were making a new star wars trilogy....

point being, i think i'd change my vote towards the announcing of a reboot or JL. you cant beat the Chris Nolan Batman. nuff said.