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View Poll Results: When will the fans turn on TDK Trilogy in Mass?
When a reboot or JL film is announced 32 39.51%
When we get a poster/stills of the reboot/JL film 11 13.58%
The new Trailer(s) 20 24.69%
Week of Release 18 22.22%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-10-2013, 08:28 PM   #301
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
I wouldn't say BB and TDK were overanalyzed. I don't think Batman Begins had too much of a poetic dialogue. I thought it was fairly balanced and did a good job of mixing poetic dialogue with normal dialogue. In fact, I would say BB could've dropped most of the corny one-liners completely. TDK, on the other hand, did have a lot of poetic and complex dialogue but I personally think that it worked 100%. There was a lot going on in the movie and I don't see any room for dialogue that could've been dropped.

TDKR though has tons of overanalyzed dialogue and that really bugged me because I felt that it didn't need it in a lot of places. The plot of TDKR is pretty paper thin if you sit down and think about it. A lot of people just don't realize this because the dialogue is so detailed and complex thus it makes the movie's plot sound a lot more intelligent than it actually is. I actually think the dialogue in TDKR is one of the main reasons to why many people label TDKR as a masterpiece of a film. Remove it or tone down the overanalyzed poetic language and the thin paper plot is more visible.
I haven't seen Batman Begins in a while, so I don't remember how poetic the dialogue was. From what I remember though, TDK was the film that overanalyzed everything.

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now."

I'm sorry, but... really? I understand that Nolan wanted to add more meaning to Batman, and make him symbolic, but I think he took it too far.

Unless Batman was trying to find an excuse to retire ASAP and quit after 2 years... oh wait, that's what he did.

I didn't find the dialogue in TDKR too overanalyzed, at least not nearly as much as TDK.

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Nolan's films have a timeless quality to them that will carry over to the next century and beyond.
His movies are not timeless classics. I'm sure people said the same thing about Burton's movies when they first came out.

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Burton's overblown set designs are horribly dated just over two decades later and are being regarded by more and more people everyday as poorly written emo wet dreams with bland characters and cheesy stroylines. Even Elfman's music doesn't hold up and sounds more campy with each passing year.
You have to be kidding me, right? And Elfman's theme is a classic, and if anything, THAT theme has a timeless quality to it.

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Batman 89 and especially Returns have been thoroughly beaten down by good taste and pop culture, and, to be fair, so has the rest of his overrated filmography.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:03 PM   #302
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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I haven't seen Batman Begins in a while, so I don't remember how poetic the dialogue was. From what I remember though, TDK was the film that overanalyzed everything.

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now."

I'm sorry, but... really? I understand that Nolan wanted to add more meaning to Batman, and make him symbolic, but I think he took it too far.
Oh come on, that is comic booky dialogue. How is it any different than say Aunt May's speech about heroes to Peter in Spider-Man 2; "I believe there's a hero in all of us. That keeps us honest. Gives us strength. Makes us noble. And finally allows us to die with pride. Even though we have to be steady and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams"

No coincidence that also applies to the situation of Peter and Doc Ock, hence why Peter repeats all of that to Doc Ock in the finale.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:08 PM   #303
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

Aunt May gave a few speeches in the trilogy, and they weren't nearly as annoying as the dialogue from the Nolan films. Just my opinion.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:13 PM   #304
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

What's interesting to note that while Burton's batman is a heavily stylized world it uses naturalistic dialogue to ground it, because having both stylized dialogue and set design may serve to alienate the viewer from the film's narrative and characters.

Nolan's Batman exists in an aesthetically grounded world but uses stylized dialogue as a constant reminder that it is a comic book film.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:33 PM   #305
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

I'd imagine that Nolan wanted to back away from the title of "comic book film" as much as possible. I'd rather have grounded dialogue in a stylized world than the other way around.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:42 PM   #306
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Originally Posted by Picard Sisko View Post
I'd imagine that Nolan wanted to back away from the title of "comic book film" as much as possible.
I'd imagine you're wrong considering how heavily influenced by the comics his movies are;

http://www.justpressplay.net/article...q-trilogy.html

http://www.jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

http://www.scifimoviepage.com/upcomi...ht_comics.html

http://gothamalleys.blogspot.ie/2011...s-part-vi.html

http://www.batman-online.com/forum/i...hp?topic=271.0

http://www.batman-online.com/feature...k-knight-rises

http://gothamalleys.blogspot.ie/2011...es-part-v.html

Grant Morrison on Ledger's Joker and Nolan's Batman movies;

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Heath Ledger’s Joker -- no question it was an amazing performance. And if he were still with us, we could ask him about his various inspirations: what did he watch, what did he read, what did he observe, how did he inhabit his character? Well, one of the clues he left us was his Joker diary, which he kept four months before shooting.

In it, there’s a list of what would make the Joker laugh – including AIDS, landmines, geniuses suffering irreversible brain damage, brunch, and sombreros. “It gave me this chill,” Grant Morrison said, because it was word-for-word what Morrison had written in one of his Batman stories.

“There’s a Batman [Batman #663, “The Clown at Midnight”] that I did last year that hardly anyone read,” Morrison said.

As a response to his own "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth,” Morrison had continued his themes of the duality of Joker and the Batman in “The Clown at Midnight.” Having established with “Arkham” that the Joker had a sort of “super-sanity” and that he shifted between personalities,” Morrison explored the idea further in “The Clown at Midnight,” by showing that each time the Joker escaped, one of those new personalities would emerge.

“It’s a really good story,” Morrison said, “but because it was prose, people didn’t want to read it.”

Except, apparently, Heath, who saw Morrison’s list and put it in his Joker diary. “He actually had a whole list -- blind babies, doctors, accidents -- really horrible stuff,” Morrison said. “Heath wrote it all down. So yeah, I can see there’s a lot of [‘Arkham’ and ‘Midnight’] in his Joker.”

The filmmakers have taken great pains to acknowledge the original comics they drew from, Morrison pointed out. With those shout-outs, sales for the originals have skyrocketed – not just for “Arkham,” but also Alan Moore’s “The Killing Joke,” Frank Miller’s “Year One” and “Dark Knight Returns,” and Jeph Loeb’s “Long Halloween.”

“David Goyer has said they owe a debt to us,” Morrison said. “And it’s really easy to see our influence. But at the same time, they also created something quite new and extraordinary.”
http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/08/04...s-joker-diary/

Nolan even wrote an introduction to the The Long Halloween, talking about how much he loved it and how much it influenced his Batman movies.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:45 PM   #307
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

I didn't say Nolan was not "inspired" by the comic books, which is a totally different thing. His interpretation and execution of these stories did not feel like comic book movies at all, being so "grounded" and all.

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:53 PM   #308
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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I didn't say Nolan was not "inspired" by the comic books, which is a totally different thing. His interpretation and execution of these stories did not feel like comic book movies at all, being so "grounded" and all.
No it's not. How do comic books inspire you as heavily as that, and then not end up being like comic books? Or do you think a millionaire dressed as a giant bat working in a Batcave and driving a big black tank and a bat-pod and a flying vehicle called The Bat, consider ninjas in the Himalayas trying to destroy a city, psycho doctors wearing Scarecrow masks spraying fear gas, a mind gaming psycho terrorist anarchist dressed in a purple suit and clown make up, a D.A. who looks like this;



A 5 month siege of a city by a man wearing a pain killing mask using a nuclear bomb, an ancient pit where prisoners are kept, and a thief who dresses like this;



These are grounded non comic book elements to you?

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:06 PM   #309
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

Surely they have comic book elements. But the tone of the movies just don't feel "comic book." Not saying that is really a bad thing.

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:16 PM   #310
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Originally Posted by Picard Sisko View Post
I didn't say Nolan was not "inspired" by the comic books, which is a totally different thing. His interpretation and execution of these stories did not feel like comic book movies at all, being so "grounded" and all.
I think a lot of people don't quite understand what a comic books are. There is no such thing as a "comic book movie" or "comic booky dialogue" or "comic book feel" etc. Comics are just another form of medium like movies, video games, and books. And just like those mediums, they range from being very grounded in reality to being sci-fi/fantasy based. There are many stories told in comics (including the Batman stories that influenced the Nolan films) just as grounded as the Nolan films or even more grounded and I'm not just talking about Batman stories here. To say that a movie based on a comic book does not feel like a comic book movie is just absurd because there really is no "comic book feel". You are basically closing off comics to a genre and you make many other more serious and grounded comics from non-Marvel/DC properties (like Y The Last Man, The Walking Dead, etc.) look like invalid comic books.

I talk more about this here:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=449593

Also, most of the stories BB and TDK were based on were pretty grounded in reality too in terms of tone such as Year One and The Long Halloween (Year One feels even more gritty and realistic than all 3 Nolan films) so it is a pretty unfair argument IMO. TDKR is kinda in between. It has moments where it's trying to be very realistic and moments where it's trying to be a "fun comic booky film" (which don't fit well together in the movie, which is another problem TDKR has - it is unsure if it wants to be more serious and grounded or more like The Avengers).

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:17 PM   #311
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

I get the feeling people say it doesn't have that kind of "feeling" because of it not having those fantastical sort of elements you see in every single CBM. But then you ask, isn't Watchmen still considered a CBM? Doesn't make sense that only Nolan's trilogy gets called as films that don't feel like CBMs.

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:24 PM   #312
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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I think a lot of people don't quite understand what a comic books are. There is no such thing as a "comic book movie" or "comic booky dialogue" or "comic book feel" etc. Comics are just another form of medium like movies, video games, and books. And just like those mediums, they range from being very grounded in reality to being sci-fi/fantasy based. There are many stories told in comics (including the Batman stories that influenced the Nolan films) just as grounded as the Nolan films or even more grounded and I'm not just talking about Batman stories here. To say that a movie based on a comic book does not feel like a comic book movie is just absurd because there really is no "comic book feel". You are basically closing off comics to a genre and you make many other more serious and grounded comics from non-Marvel/DC properties (like Y The Last Man, The Walking Dead, etc.) look like invalid comic books.

I talk more about this here:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=449593

Also, most of the stories BB and TDK were based on were pretty grounded in reality too in terms of tone such as Year One and The Long Halloween (Year One feels even more gritty and realistic than all 3 Nolan films) so it is a pretty unfair argument IMO. TDKR is kinda in between. It has moments where it's trying to be very realistic and moments where it's trying to be a "fun comic booky film" (which don't fit well together in the movie, which is another problem TDKR has - it is unsure if it wants to be more serious and grounded or more like The Avengers).
You just contradicted yourself.

Yes, comic books are another medium like movies, video games, and books. But there are some elements that are very identifiable with when it comes to superhero themed comic books, and a certain style that is captured within them. I should have been more specific. Of course, they are not limited to being campy, funny, absurd, fantasy, etc. But there is an essence to them that cannot be found in other forms of media, except those specific books/movies based on them. There is a "comic book feel" when it comes to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films, or the Avengers for example.

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:37 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
I think a lot of people don't quite understand what a comic books are. There is no such thing as a "comic book movie" or "comic booky dialogue" or "comic book feel" etc. Comics are just another form of medium like movies, video games, and books. And just like those mediums, they range from being very grounded in reality to being sci-fi/fantasy based. There are many stories told in comics (including the Batman stories that influenced the Nolan films) just as grounded as the Nolan films or even more grounded and I'm not just talking about Batman stories here. To say that a movie based on a comic book does not feel like a comic book movie is just absurd because there really is no "comic book feel". You are basically closing off comics to a genre and you make many other more serious and grounded comics from non-Marvel/DC properties (like Y The Last Man, The Walking Dead, etc.) look like invalid comic books.

I talk more about this here:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=449593

Also, most of the stories BB and TDK were based on were pretty grounded in reality too in terms of tone such as Year One and The Long Halloween (Year One feels even more gritty and realistic than all 3 Nolan films) so it is a pretty unfair argument IMO. TDKR is kinda in between. It has moments where it's trying to be very realistic and moments where it's trying to be a "fun comic booky film" (which don't fit well together in the movie, which is another problem TDKR has - it is unsure if it wants to be more serious and grounded or more like The Avengers).
Well said

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Old 01-11-2013, 07:32 AM   #314
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Aunt May gave a few speeches in the trilogy, and they weren't nearly as annoying as the dialogue from the Nolan films. Just my opinion.
Her speeches were FAR more irritating than anything from the Nolan films, especially in the first and 3rd films. They meandered far to long to get to the point and had some of the worst dialogue ever put to celluloid.

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Old 01-11-2013, 07:33 AM   #315
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

^Oh yes, I remember those speeches making people throw up in the theater.
I'll take those few speeches over the dialogue throughout the three Nolan movies. It became too poetic, and as I mentioned earlier, everything was overanalyzed.

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Old 01-11-2013, 11:34 AM   #316
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

Nah, I'll take any speech in Nolan's trilogy

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Old 01-11-2013, 11:56 AM   #317
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

Gordon's speech in TDK rules! It's just a man truly in awe of a hero, trying to explain something some harsh truths to his son in way that he can grasp.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:12 PM   #318
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Gordon's speech in TDK rules! It's just a man truly in awe of a hero, trying to explain something some harsh truths to his son in way that he can grasp.
Indeed. It's true that the dialogue is a bit cheesy, but then again there's such a negative backlash to this sort of dialogue sometimes that you'd figure something like this doesn't exist in real life when the opposite is actually true.

It's also Oldman's godly delivery that entirely sells that moment and dialogue. I don't think many other actors could've pulled it off.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:18 PM   #319
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

I go to the movies for clever, eloquent dialogue, not for the kinds of dialogue I hear in "real life." I want to hear the kind of dialogue I wish people said in real life.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:20 PM   #320
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

True. I get irritated when people say people like Tarrantino, Sorkin and the Coen Bros have "realistic" dialogue in their films. Um, no they don't. They are blatantly stylized.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:29 PM   #321
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Gordon's speech in TDK rules! It's just a man truly in awe of a hero, trying to explain something some harsh truths to his son in way that he can grasp.
Bing.

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Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
I go to the movies for clever, eloquent dialogue, not for the kinds of dialogue I hear in "real life." I want to hear the kind of dialogue I wish people said in real life.
Bang.

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True. I get irritated when people say people like Tarrantino, Sorkin and the Coen Bros have "realistic" dialogue in their films. Um, no they don't. They are blatantly stylized.
Boom.

It's obviously all opinions if you want to hear simplistic speeches in a movie, but I will always want speeches that sound eloquent and broader in terms of vocabulary or something that makes people actually think. Aunt May's speeches did not. Something poetic such as Gordon's TDK speech did. In fact, the entire trilogy has a very poetic feeling to it with any of their speeches that only adds more to the experience when watching the trilogy.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:35 PM   #322
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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You just contradicted yourself.

Yes, comic books are another medium like movies, video games, and books. But there are some elements that are very identifiable with when it comes to superhero themed comic books, and a certain style that is captured within them. I should have been more specific. Of course, they are not limited to being campy, funny, absurd, fantasy, etc. But there is an essence to them that cannot be found in other forms of media, except those specific books/movies based on them. There is a "comic book feel" when it comes to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films, or the Avengers for example.

He didn't contradict himself. There was a reason he put "fun comic book-y film" in quotation marks. It's because there is "feel" to comic book films that are intrinsically different to other films. Most films have fun moments in them. The reason the "fun" is in these films is because they can't take themselves too seriously, when ultimately it's a film where people think they don't have to feel silly for liking a film where a man dresses up in a silly costume and beats up the bad guys. It's the ultimate childhood wish fulfilment. It's inescapably "comic book-y", and people should stop pretending otherwise, these films feel no different to a Frank Miller, Jim Starlin, Judd Winick, Alan Moore or Brian Azarello comic book.

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Old 01-11-2013, 01:35 PM   #323
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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It's obviously all opinions if you want to hear simplistic speeches in a movie, but I will always want speeches that sound eloquent and broader in terms of vocabulary or something that makes people actually think. Aunt May's speeches did not. Something poetic such as Gordon's TDK speech did. In fact, the entire trilogy has a very poetic feeling to it with any of their speeches that only adds more to the experience when watching the trilogy.
The symbolism, recurring motifs and poetic aspects of this trilogy were always a highlight for me.

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Old 01-11-2013, 04:32 PM   #324
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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Originally Posted by Picard Sisko View Post
You just contradicted yourself.
No I didn't. That's why I put the quotation marks there.

Quote:
Yes, comic books are another medium like movies, video games, and books. But there are some elements that are very identifiable with when it comes to superhero themed comic books, and a certain style that is captured within them. I should have been more specific. Of course, they are not limited to being campy, funny, absurd, fantasy, etc. But there is an essence to them that cannot be found in other forms of media, except those specific books/movies based on them. There is a "comic book feel" when it comes to the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films, or the Avengers for example.
There is some true to this. Yes, there is a type of similar "feel" all superhero stories seem to share but even that can greatly vary and range but most of that feel is just a certain level of suspension of disbelief which varies from superhero to superhero. Superhero stories with the feel that the Raimi Spider-Man films and The Avengers have are only a fraction of superhero stories overall. Many superhero stories are just as dark and grounded as the Nolan films or even darker. The Nolan style is by no means a small minority when it comes to superhero stories. Some of the Batman stories considered at the top of the list happen to feel just as dark and gritty as the Nolan films or even more so. Year One, The Long Halloween, and The Dark Knight Returns are the perfect examples. I would even argue the dark serious tone of the Nolan films is what you see in most Batman stories today in general. Batman Begins' feel is not too far from Year One's feel either. So why would Avengers be considered a movie with a superhero comic book feel then because they remind you of classic Avengers comics but Batman Begins wouldn't be considered a movie with a superhero comic book feel despite it reminding people of Year One? This is where the simplification of the superhero genre and comic book medium comes in.

Nolan's Batman movies are not that realistic to begin with. They're just more realistic than your average superhero movie. But there are many things in all 3 movies that cannot occur in real life and that can feel "comic booky" (going by your definition of a "comic booky" feel). I would also argue the poetic speeches you talked about before fall into that category. No one in real life talks like that. I would consider TDK's dialogue to be "comic booky" (once again, going by your definition of that).


You also brought up the Raimi films and The Avengers and said that those are good examples of movies with a "superhero comic book feel" to them. Whether you are realizing this or not, you have once again simplified superheroes and comic books to just men in colorful suits punching bad guys. This is because the Raimi films and The Avengers are very different in tone. The Avengers for the most part is a lighthearted but modern movie with a lot of action and funny moments. The Raimi films are also lighthearted but in a very cheesy and retro way thus they're already a different style of comic book movies than The Avengers. Yet you consider both to have that "comic book feel" when the only thing they have in common in terms of feel is being lighthearted. You see where I'm going with this? You're once again implying that anything dark and serious automatically doesn't have a comic book feel even though at least the first 2 Nolan films had that Year One/Long Halloween feel (especially for Year One), The Amazing Spider-Man had that modern 616 Spider-Man comic feel mixed with an Ultimate Spider-Man feel, and Punisher War Zone had that gritty realistic Punisher Max feel (despite the film being poorly received). Those all don't count for some reasons even though they captured the respective "feels" that their comics were based on but The Avengers capturing the "feel" of the comics it was based on does. A bit of a hypocritical argument IMO.

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Old 01-11-2013, 06:43 PM   #325
JackWhite
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

I never found anything corny about Gordon's speech at the end of TDK. Perhaps the "Because we have to chase him" bit. But the way he says "because he can take it" and the music kicks in as Batman stumbles off, gets me every time.

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