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View Poll Results: When will the fans turn on TDK Trilogy in Mass?
When a reboot or JL film is announced 32 39.51%
When we get a poster/stills of the reboot/JL film 11 13.58%
The new Trailer(s) 20 24.69%
Week of Release 18 22.22%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-21-2013, 01:53 PM   #626
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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If anything, they'd jump on his attitude. Even if one were inclined to agree with him on some of his points, it's hard not to get past the feeling that a mere 11 posts in his words radiate with the smugness of an A1 d***head.
I didn't find his post to be so much smug, as simply unwilling to recognize any complaints about the films as if they were perfect. Which is, of course, foolhardy. If we want to talk about smug attitudes though, there are plenty such people on the other side of the debate too. Thankfully, one of the ones who took such attitudes to the extreme seems to no longer be around here.

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:24 PM   #627
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I didn't find his post to be so much smug, as simply unwilling to recognize any complaints about the films as if they were perfect. Which is, of course, foolhardy. If we want to talk about smug attitudes though, there are plenty such people on the other side of the debate too. Thankfully, one of the ones who took such attitudes to the extreme seems to no longer be around here.
I'm just pointing out what I feel about his post(s). When a guy registers as NolanDCU, gives what amounts to a sermon on the virtues of Nolan's trilogy, and then goes and trashes films from other franchises, it makes me think he's got an agenda. Especially since he did it all in just 11 posts. And his points aren't so much my issue, it's his tone, the self-righteous condescension. As Joker said, it only contributes to the bad rep that Nolan fans get.

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:55 PM   #628
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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That's something that you'll only really see around these parts, or other internet forums. The general public adores this trilogy. -- (Can't wait for someone to pop in and say that's not true and I can't speak for the general public) -- I haven't seen or heard any of the immense complains that I've read here anywhere else. I saw TDKR on five separate occasions in theaters, with different crowds and different groups of friends, all seemingly well satisfied and some saying it was the best of the trilogy.

Now, in terms of the more die-hard fans here at the Hype...yeah, some of them have said some pretty harsh things about TDKR. Some of certainly "turned on Nolan", in a sense. But, as far as I've noticed, it's mostly the same 8-12 Hypsters leveling the same complaints over and over again, which they have every right to do. Are some of their complaints about TDKR justified? Sure, I can admit that. It's not exactly the "tightest" movie ever made. There's a lot going on in it, a lot of ground covered. Some elements could have been stronger, or altered. Also, as we know, everyone's entitled to their own opinions, especially when it comes to an art form.

Do I think some of their complaints are a little absurd? Yeah, especially when compared to the other films in the trilogy. "In my opinion", it's pretty hard to justify that TDKR is the huge plunge in quality compared to TDK that some Hypesters make it out to be. With the way I've seen people discuss how much better TDK is compared to TDKR, you'd think they were comparing The Godfather Part II with Showgirls. I mean, some people think Nolan screwed it up really, really badly. Meanwhile, I think Batman Begins (which I also love) shares many of the same faults that I see people tossing at TDKR, and to me, those faults are even more glaring in BB -- lazy writing, unimpressive action sequences, a bit of bad editing, and some of the most lousy one-liners of the series.

Like I said, film is subjective, so anyone is welcome to hate TDKR and criticize Nolan for his work. However, what bothers me the most is seeing those same people (who openly admit they were very unhappy with TDKR) belittle the folks who love the film, as if the TDKR fans are sheep who will accept any drivel that is tossed their way. That **** is getting real old fast, and it's kept me out of the TDKR forums for the most part for some time.

But in the "real world" outside of these forums, I think it's safe to say this trilogy is beloved by most. And before someone asks me for proof of that, I have none...it's just obvious. TDK is the shining film in this trilogy, for sure, but the other two aren't far behind in my eyes or the eyes of the critics who reviewed the films -- BB: 85%, TDKR 87% RT ratings
This is a fantastic post!

It's exactly how it is too.

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:55 PM   #629
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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I'm just pointing out what I feel about his post(s). When a guy registers as NolanDCU, gives what amounts to a sermon on the virtues of Nolan's trilogy, and then goes and trashes films from other franchises, it makes me think he's got an agenda. Especially since he did it all in just 11 posts. And his points aren't so much my issue, it's his tone, the self-righteous condescension. As Joker said, it only contributes to the bad rep that Nolan fans get.
Oh, he has an agenda alright. He was pretty upfront about that. Hey, his attitude may be abrasive and condescending, but at least he was clear and transparent about what that attitude was. You now have the luxury of skipping all his future posts or blocking him as you know exactly what you're going to get if he keeps posting.

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Old 05-21-2013, 09:37 PM   #630
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My Dad thinks TDK is only raved about because of Heath Ledger which he didn't think was that good, he likes Burtons Batman & Jacks Joker more. I have some other mates who don't like these films because they still think Batmans for kids & teens. My best mate did'nt like TDKR as much as the last films because of not much Batman, loved Bane though. I have a different mate who loves Shumachers Batman alot. Its just different tastes I guess. In the end we all like Batman in some way. Some just like things because they grew up with it and gives them good memories about their childhood/youth.

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Old 05-21-2013, 09:41 PM   #631
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All the rustled jimmies in this thread is disturbing ... arguing about me, and not the content of my post.

I merely stated my opinion, in a strong fashion. Is this place filled with a select few who are so soft that one can't confidently define their stance on something?

I didn't say people were wrong to not like the movies. I didn't say people weren't allowed to have their own opinions. I said their overly harsh criticism is hypocritical in regards to TDK Rises because they don't hold the same standard for other films. And why do you think that is? Because the previous entries were of higher quality than anything else in the genre.

I also didn't say I don't have problems with any of the films, or that they are flawless films (well apart from TDK, which is as far from overrated as a film can be) ... BEGINS and it's at times clunky / preachy dialogue, small corny one liners, RISES and it's odd pacing, or at time sloppy narrative. BEGINS and RISES are very, very good films. The Dark Knight is INSTANT classic, a generational defining film, and one of the best films / blockbusters of all-time. Not an overrated bone in it's cinematic body.

I did say the SHH community, or online geek community is so quick to turn on films, let alone such HIGH quality films like Nolan's Batman Begins, TDK, or TDK Rises that it's alarming and very distasteful. I've seen boards where they call Nolan a hack. Really? Dude hasn't even made an average film yet.

I apologize if my confidence offends people. I am not a douche, just opinionated and passionate. Especially about something I like that is being unfairly criticized. In regards to my stance on other comic book films? I haven't blasted anything that was IMO of significant quality and wasn't un-justly defined with reasoning as to why I didn't like them as movies: Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, TIH, CA: FA, Superman Returns, etc.

I'm being as transparent as possible. I assume we're all adults here and can handle strong opinions, differing opinions, and strong debates without letting the butt hurt flow through you fellas.

And to someone else who quickly jumped on my opinion. TDK Rises has plenty of originality. Of course it's going to have call backs to moments in the two previous films. That's because a 3rd film has inherently more weight given it follows two usually beloved pieces of works. And as a cap on a trilogy, call backs and re-makes of likable moments are absolutely necessary. It brings things full circle in a gratifying, cyclical way. But TDK Rises still pushed the material to new arenas. As a movie, it was completely different. BEGINS was a superhero blockbuster, TDK was a crime drama, and RISES was a disaster / war film. Plenty of originality.

So please, I'm here to stay. If you don't like my opinions, just ignore me I guess. I'm more than welcome to listen to other's feedback. I'm just seeing a rising and growing un-fair disdain for Nolan's Batman trilogy. And no, it isn't exclusive to the internet polarizing TDK Rises film. People are retroactively now claiming BEGINS and TDK weren't the quality of films they're made out to be. Which is beyond ridiculous. And it's more prevalent on the fickle community boards like SHH and other geek populated boards. So quick to throw out the old (even if it's not old) in favor of the new. Where is the loyalty to the girl that brought you to the dance? These Nolan Batman films are still IMO leaps and bounds better than anything else in the genre. And I'm pretty sure the masses, and even snobby critics agree. Nolan was able to mend the communities.

But the hipster SHH community who needs to buck at the trend of popular mainstream ideals now claim these films weren't what they were cracked up to be. It's been brewing ever since TDK became a hit with the masses, even though BEGINS was slept on mainstream until it's DVD release. The need to be different takes precedence over honesty. This resentment for Nolan's Batman films was not like this in 2005, 2008, or even 2011 before the release of RISES.

I'm just calling it as I see it. Do I have to apologize for that?

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Old 05-22-2013, 12:32 PM   #632
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Hey guys, it's fine to not like the trilogy as a whole or a specific film in the trilogy. It's cool, you won't be hurting Nolan's feelings, lol.

NOW....if someone were to hate the product when a reboot is mentioned, even though it's going to happen with some people, that would just be sad. There's probably plenty that jumped off the Raimi ship when TAS-M was announced.

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Old 05-22-2013, 01:36 PM   #633
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

There's going to be an onslaught of hate when the reboot movies start. It's inevitable. It's the classic cycle.

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Old 05-22-2013, 02:09 PM   #634
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

But then there's a final step in that cycle where nostalgia sets in and it becomes cool to like the old version again.

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Old 05-22-2013, 02:20 PM   #635
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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I said their overly harsh criticism is hypocritical in regards to TDK Rises because they don't hold the same standard for other films. And why do you think that is? Because the previous entries were of higher quality than anything else in the genre.
At least for me, that is correct. That has always been the case and I've always been open about it. I've stated several times that whenever I stated TDKR to be "bad", I never meant that it is bad in the same way things like the Transformers films and the Star Wars prequels are. Those are just bad movies period. TDKR is an alright movie and it is enjoyable (I won't lie that it's not enjoyable). What I always meant by "bad" is that it is not only nowhere near the standard set by the first two films (IMO) but it also doesn't live up to the standard that the movie tries to set for itself.

Quite frankly, there are things in TDKR that I criticize the movie for that I would not criticize them if they were present in, for example, The Avengers. But that is mainly because I try to judge things by what they are trying to be. If a movie tries to be a musical, I judge it as a musical. If a movie tries to be just a fun popcorn flick, I judge it as that. If a movie just wants to be a cheesy action movie with not much story, I look at it as just that. In the case of TDKR, the film really tries to be the most intelligent, realistic, and most complex comic book movie there is and because it is trying to be just that, I judge it as just that. And in my opinion (and it is just my opinion - you're entitled to yours), it did not achieve what it was trying to be. It did not reach the standard that the movie has set for itself.

I also never bought the argument that I am overanalyzing things such as themes, character motivations, and story. That would be a fine argument if it was used to defend movies where that arguments fits and is more appropriate but the thing is that Nolan's trilogy was built on just that. The Dark Knight specifically is the most overanalyzed film in the past 10 years and despite that, it still holds up (at least it does in my opinion). Now I'm not saying that TDKR should be criticized for not being as good as TDK because that would be unfair to not just TDKR but to every other comic book movie out there. However, I do think it is a bit unfair for other people to say that fans had no right to expect a film with meanings and themes that could be analyzed deeper than just from the surface level without the film itself falling apart - and once again, please note that I didn't say TDKR has to necessarily live up to the standard set by TDK; just that it shouldn't be able to fall apart as easily as it does when you try to dig a bit into the film (IMO).

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Old 05-22-2013, 02:29 PM   #636
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Yeah, this probably a borderline taboo to say, but a Nolan film on a "bad day" still owns most CB movies out there.

And I don't think TDKR was really much of a deviation in quality. I mean even if TDKR were a few notches worse, it'd still probably be better than most films in the genre and by a pretty fair margin.

For me, there's the Nolan trilogy...and then there's the rest of the genre.

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Old 05-22-2013, 02:41 PM   #637
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

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There's going to be an onslaught of hate when the reboot movies start. It's inevitable. It's the classic cycle.
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But then there's a final step in that cycle where nostalgia sets in and it becomes cool to like the old version again.
I think it works both ways.

On one hand, you have the group of people that are often blinded by nostalgia and refuse to accept that anything new is better than the product from their past that they saw when they were younger. On the other hand, you have the bandwagoners that cling onto whatever is new and bash the previous products in order to justify the reboot. The sad thing is that regardless of how superior or inferior a reboot of a franchise will be compared to the previous films, there will always be a certain number of people blinded by nostalgia and bandwagoners respectively on each side. I also want to establish that I don't mean to call everyone who prefers the older version of something a person blinded by nostalgia and everyone who prefers the newest version automatically a bandwagoner. I'm talking about the people that do automatically prefer the older version of whatever because they're blinded by nostalgia and the people that automatically prefer the newest version of the product because they are bandwagoners.

Not many people will agree with me on this but I don't think we'll see as many people turn on the Nolan films or on the Batman reboot as you usually see whenever a new reboot comes out, or at least you won't see as many people that are open about it. First of all, unlike previous franchises that were rebooted because the quality dropped, Batman will presumably be rebooted - I say presumably because there is still a chance that WB will bring back Nolan's Batman for the Justice League film - because the director intentionally decided to conclude the franchise. This may minimize the number of people blinded by nostalgia that will use the "Why can't they make a better/another sequel?" argument. Second, it will be a heck of a lot harder for the bandwagoners to justify them turning on the Nolan films than it was for them to justify turning on any other CBM so far. The Dark Knight is still the most critically acclaimed comic book movie to date. It will be a heck of a lot harder to justify why they turned on TDK so quick as opposed to why they turned on so fast on Raimi's Spider-Man or Burton's Batman or the rest. Whenever a new reboot comes out, a lot of these bandwagoners also try to argue that the only reason people liked the previous films so much was because they came out when there were barely any comic book movies released. They can't really use that argument with the Nolan films because they came out when the popularity of superheroes on the big screen reached its peak or is/was at least close to reaching its peak.

I'm not saying this will definitely be the case but I do think the possibility of seeing not that big of a "war" is there.

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Old 05-22-2013, 03:00 PM   #638
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If anything, the people who don't like TDKR have grown to appreciate BB/TDK more.
Exactly, I read through what the post you quoted like

Even though I disliked TDKR, TDK and BB are (IMO) respectively #1 and #2 in the genre

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Old 05-22-2013, 03:15 PM   #639
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But then there's a final step in that cycle where nostalgia sets in and it becomes cool to like the old version again.
I was going to write that.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:20 PM   #640
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I love how the series develops, to me it feels like Begins is a traditional kick-ass superhero movie with a heart-felt origin, cool bad guys and the hero winning at the end, (albeit with warnings that the mission contains seeds of its own failure) TDK kind of turns it on its head by having the comic book heroism taken apart and shown up for all its weaknesses, and Rises is like, ok we turned it all over, now where does it go from here.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:23 PM   #641
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For me, the Nolan trilogy will always be great simply because of the ambition and respect applied to the character. You can't say that they didn't try to be the best movies they can be, and despite the differences, they were ultimately faithful at their core.

Unfortunately the sheer reverence they were subjected to made them more susceptible to criticism. When they are treated like holy scripture it's all too tempting to take them down a peg. And there are flaws. Flaws that go beyond faithfulness to the comics. As time goes on we will be able to distance ourselves from them and see them as they actually are.

For me, the perfect Batman film would be a hybrid of the Nolan and Burton films. A mixture of gothic fantasy and gritty urban crime drama.

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Old 05-22-2013, 05:37 PM   #642
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The way I feel them is, they're like a mixture of high quality serious crime movie, and pulp adventure, just like the comic books were. So you're going to get things like, outlandish, symbiolic situations mixed with realistic feeling corruption/organised crime plots. A setting that feels real but occasional out-there technologies such as the clean slate or Ra's microwave weapon.

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Old 05-22-2013, 06:58 PM   #643
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I got my perfect Batman films with this trilogy but I hope the next set will take a different direction. Maybe we can revisit the crime drama style later but perhaps the next one could either go back to the gothic style or more of a sci-fi (not Batman Beyond level but enough for some fun gadgets, Mr. Freeze and such).

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Old 05-23-2013, 07:44 PM   #644
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I bet there are people out there that will hate Nolan no matter what he makes for the rest of his life because they didn't like his take on Batman. Sad isnt it!

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Old 05-23-2013, 07:51 PM   #645
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I bet there are people out there that will hate Nolan no matter what he makes for the rest of his life because they didn't like his take on Batman. Sad isnt it!
Yes and it is very sad indeed. However, it works both ways. There are probably just as many people that will cling to him and will automatically like anything he makes.

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Old 05-23-2013, 08:37 PM   #646
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Yes and it is very sad indeed. However, it works both ways. There are probably just as many people that will cling to him and will automatically like anything he makes.
That's true. Does that happen with other directors, say with mr bay with the transformers movies. Meaning they hate him no matter what because of transformers?
I liked Nolan before he made his Batfilms and have enjoyed all his films so far, good for me I guess. But I really like alot of films that most people hate anyway.

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Old 05-23-2013, 08:51 PM   #647
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For me, the Nolan trilogy will always be great simply because of the ambition and respect applied to the character. You can't say that they didn't try to be the best movies they can be, and despite the differences, they were ultimately faithful at their core.

Unfortunately the sheer reverence they were subjected to made them more susceptible to criticism. When they are treated like holy scripture it's all too tempting to take them down a peg. And there are flaws. Flaws that go beyond faithfulness to the comics. As time goes on we will be able to distance ourselves from them and see them as they actually are.

For me, the perfect Batman film would be a hybrid of the Nolan and Burton films. A mixture of gothic fantasy and gritty urban crime drama.
Good post. Regardless of one's tastes, the Nolanverse genuinely honours Batman.

We now have a lot to choose from. Adam West, BTAS, The Batman, Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, TBATB, animated BY1, animated TDKR, the Arkhamverse and tons of other stuff. It's all Batman and it all fits into a portrait of what makes the character great. There's plenty of room for them in the larger Batman mosaic.

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Old 05-23-2013, 09:08 PM   #648
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That's true. Does that happen with other directors, say with mr bay with the transformers movies. Meaning they hate him no matter what because of transformers?
I liked Nolan before he made his Batfilms and have enjoyed all his films so far, good for me I guess. But I really like alot of films that most people hate anyway.
The Bay hate is more justified because other than a couple of movies here and there made by Bay that were decent, most of his films are generally pretty bad.

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Old 05-23-2013, 10:50 PM   #649
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Yes and it is very sad indeed. However, it works both ways. There are probably just as many people that will cling to him and will automatically like anything he makes.
Nothing wrong in "clinging" to his films, though. While my least enjoyed film of Nolan's is Insomnia, I've always gotten excited over every Nolan-directed film just because they always give me something new to enjoy.

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Old 05-23-2013, 11:15 PM   #650
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Default Re: How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

Nolan is arguably the foremost mainstream filmmaker of this generation. Whether one adores his entire filmography or finds him overrated, it's hard to deny his stature and his very widespread acclaim and high level of respect he commands.

It doesn't mean one must like everything he does, but it's only natural that each of his projects are going to keep film fans interested.

If there's one effect that Nolan has an audiences- it's that he gets people to talk about his films. I think that's a great thing.

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