Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

[MagnarTheGreat]

Originally Posted by lililatigresse

You know, I remember someone (maybe Wally) saying how some crew members prefer BB and others TDK and I thought Nolan wanted this film to be the best of both films. That's what I thought when he brought back the League and the Al Ghuls.

BB is my favourite film of the trilogy. But after seeing TDKR, I'm now sure that the reason I love BB so much isn't because of the LOS or Ra's Al Ghul. I don't know what it is, but it was not in TDKR.

It's the most Bruce/Batman-centric. It doesn't open with a villain, it opens with Young Bruce Wayne. It doesn't end with another character, it ends with the original Batman. It has excellent non-linear storytelling. It manages the side characters pretty well. It builds up as it goes on to a frantic finale. I could go on but people get the point... part of my ideal Batman movie would be one where Batman/Bruce Wayne is treated to as much presence and screentime as is typical in a Bond movie.

I know some people are butthurt over the bait-and-switch with Bane like I'm bothered over the bait-and-switch with Blake (Marketing: "THE LEGEND ENDS. Umm, nevermind."), but there's always a secret important villain in these Nolan Bat-films, and it shouldn't have been unexpected even if someone avoided Devin Faraci's information or the set photos or whatever.

It was a pretty ballsy move to close out with a female villain in a commanding role, so I appreciate that. I appreciate the comic accuracy in bringing in her character though its abandonment of accuracy elsewhere I can mostly accept...or ignore, because the details elsewhere make up for it. It's good that the film didn't just end with Batman punching Bane's mask and then Selina shooting Bane, there was more to it than that after. When I found out a month ago that Bane might be sympathetic I thought it was possible I might really not like it since I hoped for plain villainy, but it turned out ok to me. While I have no personal sympathy for any of the crap he does, his story makes him more than just "The Joker with muscles and training." Instead I got an entirely unsympathetic version of Talia which is off the beaten path for the character more than a bit.

[lililatigresse]

Originally Posted by regwec

I think BB has a sense of promise about it, by virtue of being the first one.

Maybe, but thinking about it, the big difference is after seeing BB, I felt close to Bruce Wayne/Batman, I was rooting for him, I was liking him so much.

After seeing TDK, I was so impressed by the Joker and I didn't care much for Bruce.

After seeing TDKR, I was rolling my eyes at Bruce and Batman, even wishing Bane or Talia were smart enough to kill him when they had the chance to.

You have point, but I don't think that the plot point that Tate/Talia provides is really sufficient to justify her character, especially since Bruce has already been shown to let down his guard.

The result is that Tate/Talia occupies time and space in the movie, without a great deal to do. If anything, that's unfair on Marion, because it means too much is expected of her to sell an underwritten character.

I happen to think the role could have been better played, regardless. But the structure of the movie would have been more satisfactory without her altogether, in my opinion.

I totally agree with what you said about her occupying time and space in the film without a great deal.

But I am a Talia fan, I really don't care about Catwoman, I only like Michelle's and Eartha's CW and Anne (whom I'm not a fan of, I'll be the first one to admit it) didn't change this.
So I wish they only used Talia and made it right especially since I really really think she had her place in this trilogy.

But yeah, seeing how they totally ruined her character, they should not have used her.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by WorthyStevens

But were we really supposed to care about this rendition of Talia? I didn't get any indication of that.

What good is a character like her then if there's no investment for the audience, especially us?

[Laderlappen]

Originally Posted by BlackFox

Catwoman was pretty strong all round to be fair.

Yes I agree. I think partly the reason of that is because Catwoman is already a great character and Nolan just took that character and put her in the film. He didnt have to create much about her I mean. Now Talia is also an already written character but the Miranda part was something Nolan had to create on his own. I think it would have been better to have her as a villain from the beginning.

[Baneis8feettall]

Originally Posted by lililatigresse

After seeing TDKR, I was rolling my eyes at Bruce and Batman, even wishing Bane or Talia were smart enough to kill him when they had the chance to.

What?!

[Tacit Ronin]

Originally Posted by regwec

You have point, but I don't think that the plot point that Tate/Talia provides is really sufficient to justify her character, especially since Bruce has already been shown to let down his guard.

The result is that Tate/Talia occupies time and space in the movie, without a great deal to do. If anything, that's unfair on Marion, because it means too much is expected of her to sell an underwritten character.

I happen to think the role could have been better played, regardless. But the structure of the movie would have been more satisfactory without her altogether, in my opinion.

You could say the same about Catwoman. She could've been omitted without sacrificing the structure of the film. She however interjected a sense of fun in the movie that might've otherwise not been there. You can argue that she was an example of Batman inspiring good in others, but we already have Foley for that; whose arc was cut unfortunately short to make room for these ladies of which i have little doubt. In the end, both Talia and Selia took precious time from each other and we ended up with neither having reached their full potential.

[regwec]

Perhaps, though the fact that Selina has a proper character arc of her own, and is instrumental to the ending, makes her more justifiable than Tate, to me. Selina is also the only consistent emblem of the 99% theme which the film introduced then subordinated prematurely.

[Frodo]

The interesting thing is that , The one universal complaint about TDKR from those who loved and didn't love TDKR, was that there wasn't enough Catwoman and that Hathaway was one of the best part's of the film.

By the same token , the consensus of those who liked and disliked TDKR seems to be that Talia is ," she wasn't in it enough to give a damn", " she was underwritten", and , "She undermines Bane".

[MagnarTheGreat]

Why bring the LoS back? I think you can tie a lot of the characters to them and the themes. Just thinking out loud.

Selina represents:
-The concept of "create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal."

Talia represents:
-The concept of having an heir or successor, "There are many forms of immortality." "An heir to ensure the League of Shadows fulfills its duty to restore balance to civilization."

Bane represents:
-What Bruce Wayne could have become had he made a different choice in the monastery and led the attack on Gotham. "It should be you standing by my side, saving the world."
-Bruce Wayne exiled himself from the League while Bane was once expelled.
-Bane saved Talia's life like Bruce saved Ducard's.

Blake represents:
-An heir and immortality. "...if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal...and if they can't stop you, then you become something else entirely. [...] Legend, Mr. Wayne."

Gordon represents:
-Corruption. "The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years."

[The Sage]

The main sticking point with Miranda/Talia is that her relationship with Bruce wasn't developed enough to the point in which that the twist didn't have as much impact as it should've. One could argue that with Bruce's brief tryst with her, and the fact that the woman he handed over control of Wayne Enterprises along with with the fusion project he had mothballed, he had enough reason to be in shock when she stabbed him. But the romantic subplot needed to be there.

Bale sold it well, enough though and I enjoyed the twist.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by regwec

Marion's was a weak performance, but the character itself was paper-thin, so she can only really be apportioned a fraction of the blame.

I agree. Sometimes even the best of actors can't make crap shine.

Originally Posted by jmc

What good is a character like her then if there's no investment for the audience, especially us?

Exactly. We are given no reason to give a damn about her. Just like with Foley. The way the camera zooms in on his body after he's killed it's like "Oh we're supposed to care he's dead?".

[Tacit Ronin]

Bale sold it well, enough though and I enjoyed the twist.

Yes. Bale's emoting under the cowl is probably the best Batman performance I've ever seen.

Hyperbole?

[regwec]

No, exaggeration.

[Tacit Ronin]

Originally Posted by regwec

No, exaggeration.

I meant to clarify: just at that moment. Not overall.

[lililatigresse]

Originally Posted by Baneis8feettall

What?!

I'm not even joking, I had zero sympathy for Bruce/Batman in this film. Bane or Talia should have killed him and Alfred could have totally joined him in the tomb.
Bruce/Batman and Alfred in this film are my most hated comic characters since Mary Jane in Spider-Man 2!!

I know people here hate Blake, but I thought he was the most tolerable character in the film. Well, at least until that cheap ending.

[Baneis8feettall]

Originally Posted by lililatigresse

I'm not even joking, I had zero sympathy for Bruce/Batman in this film. Bane or Talia should have killed him and Alfred could have totally joined him in the tomb.
Bruce/Batman and Alfred in this film are my most hated comic characters since Mary Jane in Spider-Man 2!!

I know people here hate Blake, but I thought he was the most tolerable character in the film. Well, at least until that cheap ending.

Interesting.I tought Bruce & Alfred were more likable than ever in this movie than previous ones. Especially compared to TDK.

[kvz5]

The acting in the reveal scene by Bale and Cotillard make up a bit for the stupid and underdeveloped relationship between their characters IMO. It's one of my favorite scenes in the movie even though I'm not fond of the Tatelia character in general.

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by Baneis8feettall

Interesting.I tought Bruce & Alfred were more likable than ever in this movie than previous ones. Especially compared to TDK.

Absolutely agreed. Bruce has always been my favorite character in the trilogy but I agree that he's the most likable and human in TDKR. I actually noticed the critics even noticing the same thing.

[regwec]

I think it is one of Bale's best performances, and it is also one that allows him a lot of range.

[lililatigresse]

Originally Posted by Baneis8feettall

Interesting.I tought Bruce & Alfred were more likable than ever in this movie than previous ones. Especially compared to TDK.

I don't know who those persons were but they weren't Bruce/Batman and Alfred to me. I don't know, maybe they were Crab People.
And Nolan can manipulate people making them cry and looking sad, it doesn't work with me.

[BlackFox]

Originally Posted by lililatigresse

I don't know who those persons were but they weren't Bruce/Batman and Alfred to me. I don't know, maybe they were Crab People.
And Nolan can manipulate people making them cry and looking sad, it doesn't work with me.

eh

Crab People you say?

[lililatigresse]

Originally Posted by BlackFox

eh

Crab People you say?

Yes, craaab people, craaab people, craaab people...

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by kvz5

The acting in the reveal scene by Bale and Cotillard make up a bit for the stupid and underdeveloped relationship between their characters IMO. It's one of my favorite scenes in the movie even though I'm not fond of the Tatelia character in general.

People like to say "Miranda was just supposed to be a fling!", but the way Bale acted in that scene, it really confirmed for me that Miranda was supposed to be set up as the main romantic interest for the film. Too bad the Nolans suck at writing a proper romance.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

It's the most Bruce/Batman-centric. It doesn't open with a villain, it opens with Young Bruce Wayne. It doesn't end with another character, it ends with the original Batman. It has excellent non-linear storytelling. It manages the side characters pretty well. It builds up as it goes on to a frantic finale. I could go on but people get the point... part of my ideal Batman movie would be one where Batman/Bruce Wayne is treated to as much presence and screentime as is typical in a Bond movie.

This. Sadly, I think people like it more when the villain is badass with a bunch of good quotes. I mean, we have a thread where the best fight is considered the one where Batman gets his ass kicked for most of it. What's even worse is that the Director took the time to make that scene awesome, but apparently didnt put in the same amount of craft for when the hero in his comeback fight.

I too would like to see a Batfilm where Bruce gets used to his full potential.

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by The Batman

People like to say "Miranda was just supposed to be a fling!", but the way Bale acted in that scene, it really confirmed for me that Miranda was supposed to be set up as the main romantic interest for the film. Too bad the Nolans suck at writing a proper romance.

That was the intent IMO. But it wasn't translated well in the writing so it didn't come off that way.