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Old 08-14-2012, 06:22 PM   #326
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I really saw Miranda/Talia as a version of Bruce Wayne in many aspects: at first, the will to use the money for do something for people in general. I think he saw at her what he could be as Bruce Wayne, without Batman, using his resources and knowledge in Gotham. And appearing in his house after the worst day of his life since his parents death as CEO of the company, saying it will take care of his parents' legacy certainly helped her plans. In his vulnerability, he maybe saw some hope on her. I'm not saying that was well done in the movie, but is the way I saw. Could be better...
The other aspect that they're are similar, you know. Bruce is like her Joe Chill.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:24 PM   #327
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The other aspect that they're are similar, you know. Bruce is like her Joe Chill.
But at least Bruce didn't sleep with his Joe Chill.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:35 PM   #328
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But at least Bruce didn't sleep with his Joe Chill.
Yeah, I know. But you got my point.

I really think she did it to give some confidence to him, which was, with his retirement and lack of preparation, something really bad for him. He probably went to find Bane thinking about defeat him, solve the problems at the company and start a relationship with her. And we know what happened...

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:40 PM   #329
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I didn't see Bane and Talia as starcrossed lovers, but partners or two with a common kinship.
I see it in that manner too...but the way its portrayed leaves different interpretation.

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But on to your comment about Talia being misrepresented...are you sure?

Because while she wasn't reflective of the Talia who loved Batman but was devoted to her father, she felt pretty reflective of the Talia that's been getting portrayed for the last 6 years.
I think both the modern comics and the movie have misinterpreted Talia's character. Like the Nolans, current comic creators can't seem to grasp the character Denny O Neil created. so they make her a one dimensional villain.

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In the movie, Talia was cold, calculating, vindictive, sought to destroy Gotham and Batman. And she was a bit unhinged.

In the comics right now, she's almost portrayed the same way.

For the sake of spoilers for those who haven't caught up in the comics:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I mean, this woman had her affections for Batman spurned, watched as the son they had together choose to be with his father and allies. In response, she's executing a revenge plan that she's been working on for years, and just about everything that's happened from Batman & Son to Batman Inc is linked to her. She's declared war on Batman, has started invading and infiltrating Gotham using her own organization.

And the son that turned on her? She's put a bounty on his head for half a billion dollars, and now every assassin the world is coming to Gotham to kill him. A bounty on her own son. She's half-crazy. Talia in the comics is a straight up villain.

Nolan's Talia just doesn't represent the Talia that you prefer. And I can understand that because that's the Talia that I had first learned about. But I don't agree that she was misrepresented here. Minus the death scene anyway.
I guess we do have to disagree. As I said, I think current DC screwed her up just as much as this movie does. At least Arkham City got it right.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:41 PM   #330
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I think I'd rather ship Batman/Bruce with Mal as this point.

Mal seems like a more better character for Nolan's Bruce Wayne.haha

This.

If only Miranda were half as interesting/mesmerizing/alluring as Mal...

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:01 PM   #331
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I think it would have been more interesting if TDKR had gone the route that some of us had speculated on by having Bruce already know who Miranda was (but not so much on what she was planning about) and have him reveal that to her early on to catch her off guard.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #332
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I see it in that manner too...but the way its portrayed leaves different interpretation.



I think both the modern comics and the movie have misinterpreted Talia's character. Like the Nolans, current comic creators can't seem to grasp the character Denny O Neil created. so they make her a one dimensional villain.



I guess we do have to disagree. As I said, I think current DC screwed her up just as much as this movie does. At least Arkham City got it right.
I wouldn't buy previous versions of Talia in this story line. They don't have back story with Bruce. Her father gets killed by Batman. She comes for revenge. Having real emotions for Bruce Wayne would be too much soap opera. "You killed my father.I'm his heir.Head of LOS.I came Gotham for revenge and fullfill my father's wish but i falled in love with you."

If Ra's was killed by Bruce and Talia & Bruce had no backstory, probably this would be their relationship in comics. They could even wrote a story where Bruce & Talia had no relationship but at least they did that.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #333
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I think it would have been more interesting if TDKR had gone the route that some of us had speculated on by having Bruce already know who Miranda was (but not so much on what she was planning about) and have him reveal that to her early on to catch her off guard.

^ It would've been...but sadly, Bale was never the Grant Morrison Batman that we see in the comics....


Which is a shame, cause the gen audience would love World's Greatest Detective/Prep Time Batman

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:09 PM   #334
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

It would have been great to see Talia going to stab Batman the he just grabs her wrist without looking the it clicks and we know he knew all along. Kevin Smith pointed it out in his podcast that it would have been nice for Bruce to figure out.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:09 PM   #335
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I think it would have been more interesting if TDKR had gone the route that some of us had speculated on by having Bruce already know who Miranda was (but not so much on what she was planning about) and have him reveal that to her early on to catch her off guard.
It would be cool for Batman's character (The guy knows everything) but the twist was huge moment for general audience.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:10 PM   #336
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I wouldn't buy previous versions of Talia in this story line.
I'm sorry, but I honestly doubt most people who are fine with this portrayal are actually familiar with previous versions of Talia. I'm just saying.

I feel its a lack of imagination that would lead people to say "you can't really do comics Talia in this movie". Thats just my opinion.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:18 PM   #337
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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It would have been great to see Talia going to stab Batman the he just grabs her wrist without looking the it clicks and we know he knew all along. Kevin Smith pointed it out in his podcast that it would have been nice for Bruce to figure out.
It would've been excellent. Why should Bane/Catwoman get all the "Oh, man, that was badass!" moments?

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:23 PM   #338
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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^ It would've been...but sadly, Bale was never the Grant Morrison Batman that we see in the comics....


Which is a shame, cause the gen audience would love World's Greatest Detective/Prep Time Batman
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It would have been great to see Talia going to stab Batman the he just grabs her wrist without looking the it clicks and we know he knew all along. Kevin Smith pointed it out in his podcast that it would have been nice for Bruce to figure out.
If anything, they could have capitalized on the fact that in this scenario, IF Bruce did already know who Talia was, his revelation of that knowledge to her earlier in the film and him still wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt could have instigated a reaction that could have given Talia’s character some much needed depth. Honestly, instead of having tried to tie her character emotionally to Bane, they should have left Bane out of that and give that emotional and tragic connection to Talia and Bruce.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:27 PM   #339
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I'm sorry, but I honestly doubt most people who are fine with this portrayal are actually familiar with previous versions of Talia. I'm just saying.

I feel its a lack of imagination that would lead people to say "you can't really do comics Talia in this movie". Thats just my opinion.
You could definitely do comics Talia in a movie. Just not in the Nolan-verse established in Batman Begins.

The whole dynamic in the comics is Talia being torn between loyalty to her father and her love for Bruce Wayne/Batman. That dynamic gets kind of squashed when her father has been killed by Batman.

Maybe one day we'll get a film with Ra's, the Lazarus Pit and Talia all in there. That just was never going to happen in Nolan's world. I thought this was a decent way to explore what would happen if Batman had actually brought about the demise of Ra's, which can never really happen in a permanent sense in the comics. Sometimes there's a very thin line between love and hate. I'd like to think that this Talia couldn't have developed such a deep hatred of Bruce without on some level, being enamored with the man that defeated her father.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:54 PM   #340
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Personally i wouldn't want an entire movie focus on Talia's back and forth relationship with Bruce (it's even bigger story now to falling in love the man killed her father when she was planing revenge) while there are much bigger characters like Batman/Bruce, Gordon also new ones Catwoman,Robin & Bane to be told.

She was still daughter of Ra's (Better than Bane being son), she was still loyal to his father, she still had relationship with Bruce (fake or not), she,Ra's & Bane were connected in story like some comics.(Heirs to Ra's) Bane was loving her. Pretty accurate for a secondary villain in much bigger story.

Even 2 hours and 45 minutes seemed less for such big story. At some point you can even argue there wasn't enough Batman, Bane or Catwoman. It just one movie answers all.Let's not forget that..and it's much better than not to see Talia in a movie with Bane & LOS (Ra's cameo)

Talia & Bruce relationship in comics like never ending soap opera.

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Old 08-14-2012, 08:43 PM   #341
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Bruce/Selina is a neverending soap and they managed to capture some semblance of their relationship in the movie. To say the same couldnt be done with Talia is weak.

Talia could've had the same amount of screentime she had here and could've been done better.

I'd rather have no Talia than a Talia who isnt represented properly, cause now it just seems like the Nolans crammed her in there just to have her there.


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If anything, they could have capitalized on the fact that in this scenario, IF Bruce did already know who Talia was, his revelation of that knowledge to her earlier in the film and him still wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt could have instigated a reaction that could have given Talia’s character some much needed depth. Honestly, instead of having tried to tie her character emotionally to Bane, they should have left Bane out of that and give that emotional and tragic connection to Talia and Bruce.
This.

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Old 08-14-2012, 09:01 PM   #342
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Do you guys think that having Tate in TDK, just as in a minor appearance as a Wayne Enterprise secretary or even in a cameo would've made her character work much better in TDKR?

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Old 08-14-2012, 09:05 PM   #343
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Do you guys think that having Tate in TDK, just as in a minor appearance as a Wayne Enterprise secretary or even in a cameo would've made her character work much better in TDKR?
I don't think so. Having her appear in such a minor (and at that time, irrelevant) way wouldn't have helped her in the long run.

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Old 08-14-2012, 10:31 PM   #344
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It would have been great to see Talia going to stab Batman the he just grabs her wrist without looking the it clicks and we know he knew all along. Kevin Smith pointed it out in his podcast that it would have been nice for Bruce to figure out.
Wouldn't that be so fantastic? I knew it wouldn't happen but that's always been my dream scenario. It had zero chance of happening though since Nolan is obsessed with his Bruce Wayne always not figuring things out for himself. I miss the days when Bruce outsmarts people like he did with Earle in BB.


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If anything, they could have capitalized on the fact that in this scenario, IF Bruce did already know who Talia was, his revelation of that knowledge to her earlier in the film and him still wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt could have instigated a reaction that could have given Talia’s character some much needed depth.
That would've been an interesting take. Bruce kinda did that with Selina in TDKR. A nice parallel with the two ladies perhaps? Honestly, even if Bruce killed Ra's, I don't think it's hard to craft a story for Talia to still fall in love or at least question her duty to the LoS/Ra's IMO.

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Honestly, instead of having tried to tie her character emotionally to Bane, they should have left Bane out of that and give that emotional and tragic connection to Talia and Bruce.
TBH, I think that's one of the big things that dulled her character in TDKR for me. It's almost like her character was just added for Bane to have that one humanizing moment in the end. All her emotional arc was tied to Bane. She wasn't even close to her father (never forgave him for what he did to Bane). Remove her ties to Bane and she's nothing on the emotional level IMO.

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Old 08-14-2012, 10:34 PM   #345
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I really saw Miranda/Talia as a version of Bruce Wayne in many aspects: at first, the will to use the money for do something for people in general. I think he saw at her what he could be as Bruce Wayne, without Batman, using his resources and knowledge in Gotham. And appearing in his house after the worst day of his life since his parents death as CEO of the company, saying it will take care of his parents' legacy certainly helped her plans. In his vulnerability, he maybe saw some hope on her. I'm not saying that was well done in the movie, but is the way I saw. Could be better...
The other aspect that they're are similar, you know. Bruce is like her Joe Chill.
For optimal weirdness I like to see them almost as figurative siblings, both orphaned and both of the same father with Ra's (metaphorically for Bruce). They're even the only two to ever escape the pit. Kindred spirits indeed.

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Old 08-14-2012, 10:38 PM   #346
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That would've been an interesting take. Bruce kinda did that with Selina in TDKR. A nice parallel with the two ladies perhaps? Honestly, even if Bruce killed Ra's, I don't think it's hard to craft a story for Talia to still fall in love or at least question her duty to the LoS/Ra's IMO.
Hell, in Arkham City, she WANTED him to kill Ra's.

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Old 08-14-2012, 10:41 PM   #347
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The Talia reveal came far far too late. She was revealed then taken down 10 minutes later if that. There should have been a scene with Miranda and Bane, just them too that revealed Talia is more than what we think. Not the full reveal but something to know she isn't exactly on the good side. As a result in the end Talia steals Bane's thunder and pretty much demotes him to a side villain and a weak death (though in reality and looking at it, its far more an equal collaboration but that isn't really shown in the film that well).

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Old 08-14-2012, 10:47 PM   #348
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That would've been an interesting take. Bruce kinda did that with Selina in TDKR. A nice parallel with the two ladies perhaps? Honestly, even if Bruce killed Ra's, I don't think it's hard to craft a story for Talia to still fall in love or at least question her duty to the LoS/Ra's IMO.



TBH, I think that's one of the big things that dulled her character in TDKR for me. It's almost like her character was just added for Bane to have that one humanizing moment in the end. All her emotional arc was tied to Bane. She wasn't even close to her father (never forgave him for what he did to Bane). Remove her ties to Bane and she's nothing on the emotional level IMO.
Indeed if anything; here's what I would have preferred or done differently:

1. Don't tie her at all with Bane emotionally and she would not have been the one to have climbed out of the pit when she was a child (give that to Bane).

2. The reason for her absence from BB would be explained that she had indeed witnessed losing her mother to tragedy but blamed her father for not being able to save her mother from that horrible fate, hence why she was estranged from him.

3. Have Talia's real identity revealed before Bruce's first beat down. If anything, like you mentioned, her arc could have been paralleled with Selina's one where Bruce also gave her a chance, but Talia in the end chose poorly (unlike Selina). You could have Bruce's revelation that he knew who Talia was but chose to give her the benefit of the doubt be something that shakes her up and makes her realize that Bruce isn't the bad person that she had envisioned (prior to meeting him, she had a misunderstood/misguided view of who he was).

4. Granted, there wouldn't be any time for Talia to really fall in love with Bruce, but before her demise, (which would have been at the hands of Bane) I would have had her understanding Bruce and no longer holding a grudge against him.


And because this picture of Marion is just so alluring, I'll just post it for the sake of it.haha



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Old 08-14-2012, 11:35 PM   #349
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Hell, in Arkham City, she WANTED him to kill Ra's.
That's just as much a deviation from the source material as her being a straight up villain...just sayin'.

Also, I don't think Bruce figuring out Talia's identity early in the story would have worked with the story the movie told. The guy was paranoid to begin with about someone turning that reactor into a nuke, so for him to just give the woman who's trying to push the project on him the "benefit of the doubt" while knowing she's the daughter of a terrorist who tried to destroy Gotham as he hears whispers of Bane being associated with the LOS...it would only serve to make Bruce look dumber in the end.

Bruce/Talia love stories are great. TDKR was simply not trying to tell that kind of story. I've said it before, Talia is more or less the ghost of Ra's come back to haunt Bruce in this film. Was it a superior characterization than the comics? Absolutely not. But it worked in this movie for me, in that it brought the story full circle. Not just in terms of her being related to the bad guy from the first movie, but in terms of the themes of losing fathers, trying to live up to them and themes of legacy in general (which are particularly pertinent to this film, in terms of Blake looking up to Batman and the passing of the torch at the end)

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:28 AM   #350
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I liked the way they portrayed Talia, at least it was consistent with the motivations she had of fulfilling her father's vision and her relationship with Bane, it would have looked odd and cheesy if Talia suddenly shows affection for Bruce and betrays Bane, who had protected her since her childhood and helped her achieve her father's goals.

Turning Talia into a sympathetic villain is too much predictable, only thing that was needed was more screen time for Talia, but showing her do something that revels what she was planning would have taken away the surprise element of the final reveal moment of betrayal.

Portrayal of Talia is not true to the Taila's character in comics (where she loves Bruce and Hates Bane, but here it works in the story of TDKR.)

As for showing Bruce knowing her plan and Bruce being two steps ahead of them, will open more plot holes, if he knew that Talia was with Bane and LOS, why would he give her access to the experimental nuclear device ?

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