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Old 08-15-2012, 02:29 AM   #351
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:01 AM   #352
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Do you guys think that having Tate in TDK, just as in a minor appearance as a Wayne Enterprise secretary or even in a cameo would've made her character work much better in TDKR?
Yeah it would better for many characters in trilogy but they never thought it's pieces in trilogy. Every movie has own story from start to finish.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:52 AM   #353
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

General audience want to get surprised and excited. They don't care if Talia has feelings for Bruce or Batman uses batarangs etc.

Make Talia's reveal earlier in the story or make Batman knew it from beginning without any betrayal scene would take away all that effect on audience. Batman would look cooler but it would lead many plot holes and failed "twist" wouldn't be this effective on audience. Also if Batman knew Miranda is Talia, we would have totally different movie.

Talia was still Ra's daughter, she still had relationship with Bruce (fake or not), she,Ra's & Bane were at same side, Bane loved her (brotherly or not) It's not like she was written wrong. She just didn't have real feelings for Bruce. (But her father killed by him and they didn't know eachother before that..different story)

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Old 08-15-2012, 06:56 AM   #354
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

NVM. Misread a post, so my reply didn't make sense lol.

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Old 08-15-2012, 08:31 AM   #355
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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General audience want to get surprised and excited. They don't care if Talia has feelings for Bruce or Batman uses batarangs etc.

Make Talia's reveal earlier in the story or make Batman knew it from beginning without any betrayal scene would take away all that effect on audience. Batman would look cooler but it would lead many plot holes and failed "twist" wouldn't be this effective on audience. Also if Batman knew Miranda is Talia, we would have totally different movie.

Talia was still Ra's daughter, she still had relationship with Bruce (fake or not), she,Ra's & Bane were at same side, Bane loved her (brotherly or not) It's not like she was written wrong. She just didn't have real feelings for Bruce. (But her father killed by him and they didn't know eachother before that..different story)
But what about us? What are we getting out of it? Like Dent in TDK if her being Talia was a foregone conclusion there needed to be some emotional link for us as fans for that turn to hit us as hard as it does Bruce. We can't just say Bale's acting is enough in to say he felt something for her, we have to be shown it otherwise the relationship comes across as undercooked or worse non-existent. 3 scenes is all it took before they started fooling around with one and other, 3 scenes. And after that there's barely a word between the two of them. Either one of two things needed to happen, either the relationship needed to be further developed, or she needed to be dropped from the film and the relationship stuff given to Selina, because with two women in the movie he has almost zero connection with either. The results here show Talia should have never been in this movie ad I genuinely believe people are making excuses for her inclusion.

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Old 08-15-2012, 08:56 AM   #356
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Just having Bane as the leader of LOS would feel odd as he has no reason to have any connection to LOS, so why would he want to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's plans ?

I liked the fact that we get to see Talia in the movie, and Marion Cotillard was alright in the role, it just needed more scenes between her and Bruce wayne.

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Old 08-15-2012, 09:18 AM   #357
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

To be honest, I loathe what the comics are doing with Talia at the moment.

Far too often, characters who have got a bit stale are completely ruined in an attempt to freshen them up. Why did Leviathan need to be Talia? Nng.

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Old 08-15-2012, 09:19 AM   #358
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Basically I felt this version suited the story of the film, but it was a horrid adaption of the character that Nolan and co could have avoid by simply naming the character "Nyssa"

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Old 08-15-2012, 09:25 AM   #359
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Or "Ubu", which was basically what this Bane became anyway.

"Bubu". Sounds cute.

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Old 08-15-2012, 10:28 AM   #360
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Thumbs up Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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But what about us? What are we getting out of it? Like Dent in TDK if her being Talia was a foregone conclusion there needed to be some emotional link for us as fans for that turn to hit us as hard as it does Bruce. We can't just say Bale's acting is enough in to say he felt something for her, we have to be shown it otherwise the relationship comes across as undercooked or worse non-existent. 3 scenes is all it took before they started fooling around with one and other, 3 scenes. And after that there's barely a word between the two of them. Either one of two things needed to happen, either the relationship needed to be further developed, or she needed to be dropped from the film and the relationship stuff given to Selina, because with two women in the movie he has almost zero connection with either. The results here show Talia should have never been in this movie ad I genuinely believe people are making excuses for her inclusion.
Well said

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Old 08-15-2012, 10:34 AM   #361
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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That's just as much a deviation from the source material as her being a straight up villain...just sayin'.
Not really. It was just an extension of the idea that Ras and Talia wanted Bruce to be Ra's heir, as well as the idea that Ras and Talia know that Ras has lived too long.

And anyone who actually played the game would be able to tell you what I just did...just sayin'.

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But what about us? What are we getting out of it? Like Dent in TDK if her being Talia was a foregone conclusion there needed to be some emotional link for us as fans for that turn to hit us as hard as it does Bruce. We can't just say Bale's acting is enough in to say he felt something for her, we have to be shown it otherwise the relationship comes across as undercooked or worse non-existent. 3 scenes is all it took before they started fooling around with one and other, 3 scenes. And after that there's barely a word between the two of them. Either one of two things needed to happen, either the relationship needed to be further developed, or she needed to be dropped from the film and the relationship stuff given to Selina, because with two women in the movie he has almost zero connection with either. The results here show Talia should have never been in this movie ad I genuinely believe people are making excuses for her inclusion.
QFT.

People are definitely trying to make excuses for her crappy portrayal, and it got annoying a long time ago. Their arguments aren't strong, and they keep throwing the gen audience in your face, that being a cheap argument as well. And you know that if Catwoman were portrayed this bad, they would throw a fit, not say garabage like "Well, I'd rather have this than have to give Catwoman more screentime". The worst part is that their crappy opinions are rooted in a general indifference towards the character. Why should I care about what you have to say when you don't give a damn about the character to begin with?

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Old 08-15-2012, 10:44 AM   #362
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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But what about us? What are we getting out of it? Like Dent in TDK if her being Talia was a foregone conclusion there needed to be some emotional link for us as fans for that turn to hit us as hard as it does Bruce. We can't just say Bale's acting is enough in to say he felt something for her, we have to be shown it otherwise the relationship comes across as undercooked or worse non-existent. 3 scenes is all it took before they started fooling around with one and other, 3 scenes. And after that there's barely a word between the two of them. Either one of two things needed to happen, either the relationship needed to be further developed, or she needed to be dropped from the film and the relationship stuff given to Selina, because with two women in the movie he has almost zero connection with either. The results here show Talia should have never been in this movie ad I genuinely believe people are making excuses for her inclusion.
Talia was still Ra's Al Ghul's daughter and had relationship with Bruce Wayne. She was still smart,strong & cruel woman who can make proud to her father. She was still loyal to her father.Bane was still interested in her and their relationship made him heir to Ra's as well.

It's not like they butchered Talia. Different thing was she wasn't in love Bruce but it was part of her plan.

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:56 PM   #363
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

The criteria which you ascribe to the movie's Talia as being points of similarity to the the comicbook version are quite general, and they become less meaningful when the most significant characteristic of her comicbook incarnation- that she loves Bruce Wayne- is taken away.

If Sherlock Holmes was still highly intelligent with peculiar powers of deduction, he was still friends with Dr Watson, and they still lived together in Baker Street under the care of Mrs Hudson; but instead of solving crimes he worked as a lawyer; then much of the rest of his character would be rendered superfluous.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:03 PM   #364
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Not really. It was just an extension of the idea that Ras and Talia wanted Bruce to be Ra's heir, as well as the idea that Ras and Talia know that Ras has lived too long.

And anyone who actually played the game would be able to tell you what I just did...just sayin'.
I have played the game. A year ago though, so we when you said "Talia wanted Batman to kill Ra's", I had admittedly forgotten about that plot point and out of context it sounded a bit off. You're right though, so point taken.

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People are definitely trying to make excuses for her crappy portrayal, and it got annoying a long time ago. Their arguments aren't strong, and they keep throwing the gen audience in your face, that being a cheap argument as well. And you know that if Catwoman were portrayed this bad, they would throw a fit, not say garabage like "Well, I'd rather have this than have to give Catwoman more screentime". The worst part is that their crappy opinions are rooted in a general indifference towards the character. Why should I care about what you have to say when you don't give a damn about the character to begin with?
Real nice.

I don't have an indifference to Talia. I actually hate her in the sense that she's that spoiled princess (in both the comics and the film) that Bruce is kind of expected to end up with. If that makes me more of a BatCat shipper, so be it...I think she's better for him. Mind you, I love Talia's role in the overall mythos, I just cringe for Bruce that he can be seduced by and fall in love with a woman whose family ideology is far too extreme for him and involves mass murder. There's really no future there. But, for storytelling purposes, it shows Batman's vulnerability and gives him depth...so it's good stuff.

I don't think the whole Talia/Bruce relationship could have been done justice unless it played out over more than one film. There was absolutely no way it could have been done in this film IMO, as is. And I like the film as is. I thought they tell a really captivating origin myth for Ra's, Bane and Talia that was a good mix of creative ideas and cherry picking some ideas from the comics. I'm not saying the Marion Cotillard version was better than the comics version...not at all, just that it felt acceptable for this particular story.

I look at it this way: Ra's never wore a green cape. He never had a Lazarus Pit, he wasn't immortal. It was called the League of Shadows instead of the League of Assassins. He trained Bruce Wayne under the alias of Ducard. And then he died, like really died. It's been said that the films are Elseworld tales, and I think that's especially true for the al Ghul storyline. Many creative liberties were taken from Day 1. I just don't think you'd have gotten that same dynamic out of a Talia/Bruce courtship with Ra's completely out of the picture. It'd be settling for a compromised version of that story right off the bat. The film instead decided to tell a completely different story.

So yeah, I was happy to take an Elseworlds Talia to round off the Elseworlds al Ghul storyline. I've already stated my reasons for why rounding off the al Ghul storyline made sense for the themes of the movie. And I haven't thrown the general audience in your face once.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:22 PM   #365
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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People are definitely trying to make excuses for her crappy portrayal, and it got annoying a long time ago. Their arguments aren't strong, and they keep throwing the gen audience in your face, that being a cheap argument as well. And you know that if Catwoman were portrayed this bad, they would throw a fit, not say garabage like "Well, I'd rather have this than have to give Catwoman more screentime". The worst part is that their crappy opinions are rooted in a general indifference towards the character. Why should I care about what you have to say when you don't give a damn about the character to begin with?
No offense but you want the characters to remain true to their original comic book portrayals, but many people understand that Nolan has taken significant liberties with the characters but at the same time kept some essential parts intact, now that could be troublesome to some but many have accepted it as apart of creative license taken by the director.

All the points you have made in relation to this trilogy are your own opinions, but some deviation from the source material is not really a bad thing either as long as essence of the character is kept as such. (IMO.)

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:22 PM   #366
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I don't see how difficult it is to capture a character properly in one movie when they've managed to do it with other characters. Its not hard to get a semblance of their comics relationship onscreen.

And as for Ras, he may not have had the green cape and lazarus pits, but the sense of his legend and relationship with Bruce were still captured onscreen. So was Bruce's relationships with the other villains. Nolan simply dropped the ball on Talia.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:25 PM   #367
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No offense but you want the characters to remain true to their original comic book portrayals, but many people understand that Nolan has taken significant liberties with the characters but at the same time kept some essential parts intact, now that could be troublesome to some. but many have accepted it as apart of a part of creative license taken by the director.

All the points you have made in relation to this trilogy are your own opinions, but some deviation from the source material is not really a bad thing either as long as essence of the character is kept as such. (IMO.)
Thats the problem.

The essence of Talia is not in this movie, IMO. You can assume (and i use that word very heavily) in your condescending tone that I'm merely some dude that wants everything like the comics in order to break down my argument better, but the fact is, IMO, with all their changes, they didnt get the essence of the character. And they managed to do that with Ras, Joker, Two Face, Catwoman and Bane, but failed here.

In fact, the Talia we got in this movie was basically Nyssa Al Ghul, Ras more villainous daughter.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:40 PM   #368
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I just don't think it was possible to do it justice within the structure of this particular movie, with the nuke plot and the amount of story that was in there.

She wasn't quite the Talia of the comics, but she worked as one final twist of the knife for this movie.

Bane remains the main villain of the story in my eyes.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:43 PM   #369
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I have already stated that more time was needed tp develop Talia's character and her relationship with Bruce, but I think that I agree with the decision that Nolan took, not to make Talia have a soft corner towards Bruce and turn against Bane in the final scene.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:43 PM   #370
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Talia not being torn between her father and Bruce was one of the things I didn't like about her character but that's really not the only problem. I can handle a different take but the thing is, IMO, her character was just so underdeveloped that Nolan's take on her character just didn't cut it for me regardless of whether it was true or not to her comic counterpart. Nolan has used different takes from the comics for the other characters too but they were done so well or at least were developed enough so it was justified.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:44 PM   #371
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I just don't think it was possible to do it justice within the structure of this particular movie, with the nuke plot and the amount of story that was in there.

She wasn't quite the Talia of the comics, but she worked as one final twist of the knife for this movie.

Bane remains the main villain of the story in my eyes.
Agreed.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:53 PM   #372
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Talia not being torn between her father and Bruce was one of the things I didn't like about her character but that's really not the only problem. I can handle a different take but the thing is, IMO, her character was just so underdeveloped that Nolan's take on her character just didn't cut it for me regardless of whether it was true or not to her comic counterpart. Nolan has used different takes from the comics for the other characters too but they were done so well or at least were developed enough so it was justified.
Pretty much all that needs to be said. Its not enough to say "Nolan always changes stuff", a fact that guys like me are well aware of since we actually have watched the previous two movies.

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Old 08-15-2012, 03:35 PM   #373
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Talia not being torn between her father and Bruce was one of the things I didn't like about her character but that's really not the only problem. I can handle a different take but the thing is, IMO, her character was just so underdeveloped that Nolan's take on her character just didn't cut it for me regardless of whether it was true or not to her comic counterpart. Nolan has used different takes from the comics for the other characters too but they were done so well or at least were developed enough so it was justified.
Exactly.

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Old 08-15-2012, 04:38 PM   #374
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Talia's inclusion in this film is similar to how Gwen Stacy was used in Spider-Man 3. An iconic love interest from the mythology, that was brought in late in the game, and didn't really fit in the universe, that the previous films had already set up.

A shame too because I love Marion (and just like Bryce with Gwen) thought she was a great choice for the role but the character didn't really fit.

In Spidey's case they rectified it in the reboot and gave us proper portrayal of Gwen (as Pete's first true love). It doesn't seem likely that future films would re-visit the LOS (Ra's, Talia, etc.) since they were such a prominent part in Nolan's trilogy, but you never know...

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Old 08-15-2012, 04:52 PM   #375
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I would figure Nolan and Goyer have been questioned about Talia ever since Ra's was announced to be in Batman Begins. She would seem like one of the characters that had to have been on their minds for a long time since they did their research on Ra's al Ghul and she's completely linked to him.

Chris said Bane was introduced to him by Goyer sometime after they came up with the story first and it was Jonathan Nolan that was pushing for Catwoman (Chris wasn't sure how it could work at first). As we saw it was Bane's backstory that was given to Talia so I wonder when the decision to do that came about, and she mostly resembled late 20th/21st century Talia more than the previous times. I see there's a bit of Bane of the Demon (1998) in there, Superman comics Talia, writer Grant Morrison-era Talia (2006-present), Batman Beyond "Talia" (2000), etc.

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