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Old 08-30-2012, 04:24 PM   #626
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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But Bane isn't famous for beating up Bruce Wayne the billionaire. He's famous for beating up Batman. And Batman fights for the people.
Yeah but Batman does it in the shadows, I'm talking about Bane doing things in the open. Besides Batman is a criminal at the end of film 2.
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Bane wouldn't be so dumb as to believing unveiling Batman's real identity before giving him a beatdown would help his cause.
Who says he would unveil his identity?

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Old 08-30-2012, 04:37 PM   #627
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Yeah but Batman does it in the shadows, I'm talking about Bane doing things in the open. Besides Batman is a criminal at the end of film 2.

Who says he would unveil his identity?
Fine, Batman would be neither for the powerful nor the regular people. He's just some dude that dresses up. And again the question is, why would Bane go after him? What would be so personal between them that Bane would break Batman's back, but not kill him?

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:00 PM   #628
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And territory he already covered in film one.
The first film handled terrorism the sci-fi way (the wrong way), which is the main reason the third act of that film didn't work. Nolan didn't have the pull he has now so WB probably felt political parallels were still too explosive for a CBM. The LOS is too farfetched in that film.

With TDKR, the terrorist invasion is fully realized & given plausibility. Ra's is clearly outed as a mercenary operating in Arab soil, the CIA's presence in the middle-east is addressed, American soldiers are hanged for the world to see, The Lazarus Pit in Syria, The Patriot Act/Dent Act, nuclear weapons are much more feasible than "microwave emitters", Western Civilization is mocked by Bane, The Military is brought in to fight the occupation...

Batman Begins did not cover any of the above. This film did in spades.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:00 PM   #629
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I'm sorry, but the nuke thing was handled so poorly, in fact it bordered on cliche. It would have been far better had we not known about the bomb in the first place, instead Nolan set the damn thing up half an hour earlier. What disappoints me the most is there was no creativity in how it was handled, lucky for the LoS 'ol Bruce had that reactor stored hey?
No, it's not lucky at all, it's very much by design. The whole point of Talia assuming the identity of Miranda Tate was so she could invest in the clean energy project and position herself on the Wayne board. This was all done with the patience and foresight that eventually they'd figure out how to weaponize it and hold Gotham hostage. It's elaborate, but nukes don't grow on trees and it'd be even more difficult to smuggle one into the country, let alone Gotham.

Cliche would have been if they had just had Pavel build them a bomb. The fact that Talia managed to use Bruce's altruistic tendencies against him in such an extreme way is what made it original and fresh. Not to say that the idea of a ticking time bomb isn't a cliche, it is. But these are genre films with LOADS of tropes, all three of them. I thought it was handled in a satisfying manner, in that the villains still very much valued the psychological trauma they were putting the city and hero through despite the fact that they planned on dying with the city. It was unsettling.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:03 PM   #630
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Fine, Batman would be neither for the powerful nor the regular people. He's just some dude that dresses up. And again the question is, why would Bane go after him? What would be so personal between them that Bane would break Batman's back, but not kill him?
Because Bane thinks he's the better man, it doesn't need to be personal, they don't need some half baked back story linking one and other. I'm not saying what Batman is or isn't from our perspective, I'm talking about the perspective from someone like a nutbag revolutionary keen on power who would see someone like Batman/Bruce Wayne as a threat against his cause, just like the GPD. And who says he wouldn't be trying to kill him? Maybe Bruce manages to escape barely.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:06 PM   #631
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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No, it's not lucky at all, it's very much by design. The whole point of Talia assuming the identity of Miranda Tate was so she could invest in the clean energy project and position herself on the Wayne board. This was all done with the patience and foresight that eventually they'd figure out how to weaponize it and hold Gotham hostage. It's elaborate, but nukes don't grow on trees and it'd be even more difficult to smuggle one into the country, let alone Gotham.

Cliche would have been if they had just had Pavel build them a bomb. The fact that Talia managed to use Bruce's altruistic tendencies against him in such an extreme way is what made it original and fresh. Not to say that the idea of a ticking time bomb isn't a cliche, it is. But these are genre films with LOADS of tropes, all three of them. I thought it was handled in a satisfying manner, in that the villains still very much valued the psychological trauma they were putting the city and hero through despite the fact that they planned on dying with the city. It was unsettling.
Dude, it's a MacGuffin, there were more creative ways for Bane to take over the city whilst blocking out the military.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:07 PM   #632
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Dude, it's a MacGuffin, there were more creative ways for Bane to take over the city whilst blocking out the military.
I'd love to hear them.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:08 PM   #633
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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The first film handled terrorism the sci-fi way (the wrong way), which is the main reason the third act of that film didn't work. Nolan didn't have the pull he has now so WB probably felt political parallels were still too explosive for a CBM. The LOS is too farfetched in that film.

With TDKR, the terrorist invasion is fully realized & given plausibility. Ra's is clearly outed as a mercenary operating in Arab soil, the CIA's presence in the middle-east is addressed, American soldiers are hanged for the world to see, The Lazarus Pit in Syria, The Patriot Act/Dent Act, nuclear weapons are much more feasible than "microwave emitters", Western Civilization is mocked by Bane, The Military is brought in to fight the occupation...

Batman Begins did not cover any of the above. This film did in spades.
What they're more believable here? Hand full of mercenaries take down and entire city for 5 months? Jesus Christ. If anything their plans to infiltrate Gotham in every aspect of it's society in film one is more believable.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:12 PM   #634
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I'd love to hear them.
How about actually having a large enough army that he's spent years recruiting? Maybe strategically being able to spend years commandeering enough weaponry, vehicles and manpower to ensure a take over the city actually was possible. Maybe Bane is tactical and intelligent enough to anticipate what a government response is and is able to counter any attempt to take back the city with easy.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:16 PM   #635
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What they're more believable here? Hand full of mercenaries take down and entire city for 5 months? Jesus Christ. If anything their plans to infiltrate Gotham in every aspect of it's society in film one is more believable.
There is nothing believable about film one.

Cities, even those with large police forces (here in Chi-Town we have 15,000 cops) don't have the appropriate resources (military) to deal with a group of armed terrorists. Specially when a nuclear weapon is involved.

Again, had Osama been able to get all his people into NYC things woulda turned out alot worse than how they did on 9/11. Police are trained to overwhelm (8 cops vs. 1 armed suspect) not to battle a small army of mercenaries.

Nolan did a brilliant job crafting a plausible terrorist invasion.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:20 PM   #636
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So what if it's more 'political'? I hear Americans bang all the time about 'losing their freedom' and crap like that, so what's wrong with actually seeing what something like that may look like? Nothing.
Batman should stay as a hero. It's a superhero movie. He must be hero for everyone, poor,rich,american,muslim etc. I don't want Batman to stand against a true liberator like some fascist cop.

Personally, i (and probably most of the people) would cheer for Bane if he was really cared about poor ones, the ones who has been repressed by rich.. and Batman trying to protect rich people's utopia.

There must be difference between heroes like Batman,Spider-Man,Superman and the ones like Rorschach,Comedian etc. Supporting characters might have narrow minded opinions (like Catwoman, Juno Temple's character in TDKR) but not main heroes.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:23 PM   #637
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There is nothing believable about film one.

Cities, even those with large police forces (here in Chi-Town we have 15,000 cops) don't have the appropriate resources (military) to deal with a group of armed terrorists. Specially when a nuclear weapon is involved.

Again, had Osama been able to get all his people into NYC things woulda turned out alot worse than how they did on 9/11. Police are trained to overwhelm (8 cops vs. 1 armed suspect) not to battle a small army of mercenaries.

Nolan did a brilliant job crafting a plausible terrorist invasion.
Oh please, plausible? TDKR is the one film in the series where the struggle between it being a superhero film and real life drama is more than paramount. Handful of mercs take down a city of 10 million using a cliched plot device as a deterrent, which isn't helped by some underdeveloped themes and characters.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:26 PM   #638
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Batman should stay as a hero. It's a superhero movie. He must be hero for everyone, poor,rich,american,muslim etc. I don't want Batman to stand against a true liberator like some fascist cop.

Personally, i (and probably most of the people) would cheer for Bane if he was really cared about poor ones, the ones who has been repressed by rich.. and Batman trying to protect rich people's utopia.

There must be difference between heroes like Batman,Spider-Man,Superman and the ones like Rorschach,Comedian etc. Supporting characters might have narrow minded opinions (like Catwoman, Juno Temple's character in TDKR) but not main heroes.
But Bane wouldn't really care for the poor, a dictator never gives a damn about his people, it's all about power. Look at some of histories dictators, they all said they did things 'for their people', when all they wanted was effing power.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:34 PM   #639
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Oh please, plausible? TDKR is the one film in the series where the struggle between it being a superhero film and real life drama is more than paramount. Handful of mercs take down a city of 10 million using a cliched plot device as a deterrent, which isn't helped by some underdeveloped themes and characters.
That cliched plot device is the reason we defeated The Empire of Japan 67 years ago.

How is that not plausible?

And again, The City of Chicago has 15,000 uniformed officers that wouldn't stand a chance against a few hundred armed mercenaries.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:41 PM   #640
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Oh please, plausible? TDKR is the one film in the series where the struggle between it being a superhero film and real life drama is more than paramount. Handful of mercs take down a city of 10 million using a cliched plot device as a deterrent, which isn't helped by some underdeveloped themes and characters.
You can do anything with a nuclear weapon. That's very plausible and that's why most of the countries are concerned about having even nuclear power plants.

Those bombs can end world wars so it doesn't matter how advaced security there is.. If you have that power you can do anything for a while. That's why Batman was hiding it.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:42 PM   #641
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How about actually having a large enough army that he's spent years recruiting? Maybe strategically being able to spend years commandeering enough weaponry, vehicles and manpower to ensure a take over the city actually was possible. Maybe Bane is tactical and intelligent enough to anticipate what a government response is and is able to counter any attempt to take back the city with easy.
I'm sorry, Bane was awesome, but I cannot possibly believe that he would have been able to amass an army large enough to fend off the army of a superpower (not to mention all her allies), even if he is that tactically brilliant. I could see them setting up anti-aircraft all around the island, sure. But there's no way I can imagine Navy seals not swarming the island and launching a mission to take Bane out.

And even if this drove Bane into hiding and they couldn't find them, and Bane's hypothetical larger army engaged the military and a war broke out on Gotham's soil...war isn't what Bane/the League wanted. A war would cancel out the appeal of a revolution, and that's what you're arguing should have been his sole motivation. Bane is not going to be able to make any public speeches in this kind of scenario. The national guard at the very least would have been deployed immediately after the stadium attack if there was no even greater catastrophic threat Bane was wielding.

So again, I feel the nuke was a "necessary evil" in the writing to give Bane the upper hand he needed to have for this particular story.

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Old 08-30-2012, 05:47 PM   #642
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But Bane wouldn't really care for the poor, a dictator never gives a damn about his people, it's all about power. Look at some of histories dictators, they all said they did things 'for their people', when all they wanted was effing power.
They are not liberators though. If he is gonna fake it and become dictator, that could work. What i'm saying if Batman try to stop a man who fights for the people, he wouldn't be everyone's hero. (Maybe for greedy douchebags )

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Old 08-30-2012, 08:41 PM   #643
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The nuke was definitely a cliche. They tried not to make it a cliche and did a decent job in giving it at least some layers, but it's still a big bomb ticking down, right down to the rather pointless last few moments of us seeing the bomb ticking down.

But when your goal is to control a city and prevent outside interference, there are only two ways to make the government not step in:

Have the government abandon Gotham for some reason, a la NO MAN'S LAND, which is incredibly unrealistic.

Or have the government held in check with a nuclear deterrent.

There really wasn't a plot device other than a nuke that would have allowed for an immediate threat to all of Gotham, which at the same time would have been something Batman could dramatically "sacrifice" himself to avert, other than maybe something that would disperse a biological agent, and that would have felt a bit more like BATMAN BEGINS.

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Old 08-30-2012, 08:59 PM   #644
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The nuke was definitely a cliche. They tried not to make it a cliche and did a decent job in giving it at least some layers, but it's still a big bomb ticking down, right down to the rather pointless last few moments of us seeing the bomb ticking down.

But when your goal is to control a city and prevent outside interference, there are only two ways to make the government not step in:

Have the government abandon Gotham for some reason, a la NO MAN'S LAND, which is incredibly unrealistic.

Or have the government held in check with a nuclear deterrent.

There really wasn't a plot device other than a nuke that would have allowed for an immediate threat to all of Gotham, which at the same time would have been something Batman could dramatically "sacrifice" himself to avert, other than maybe something that would disperse a biological agent, and that would have felt a bit more like BATMAN BEGINS.
Exactly.

It may not be good writing to lean heavily on cliches, but it's also not good writing to go out of your way to avoid a cliche when it's clearly the most efficient and realistic way to accomplish what you want in the plot.

It's a MacGuffin, it's a deus ex machina, it's whatever you wanna call it...but with the scale they were going for with Gotham being completely ruled by Bane, in a series where putting a giant indestructible dome over Gotham is off limits...it had to be done. Plus, nukes are pretty scary in reality, regardless of how many times it's been done in movies.

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Old 08-30-2012, 09:12 PM   #645
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I prefer a nuke to a microwave emitter, especially when it's a nuke that was originally built for altruism by Bruce Wayne himself. Bane takes something Bruce used for good for evil in a similar way that the Joker took Batman and turned him against Gotham. The story had earned the usage of the nuke because it was a combination of the threats from the previous movies (as Bane was), even though it as a plot device has been done so many times before.

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Old 08-31-2012, 09:25 AM   #646
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But Bane isn't famous for beating up Bruce Wayne the billionaire. He's famous for beating up Batman. And Batman fights for the people.

Bane wouldn't be so dumb as to believing unveiling Batman's real identity before giving him a beatdown would help his cause.
Hmmmm. Off the top of my head the benefit could be...

Public perception has been pretty consistently negative towards Batman up until the point of TDKR. He starts the film as a wanted criminal roundly hated by the population. It's revealed he created a lie to ensure that corruption of the mob could be addressed, but as a result of this the overtly corrupt criminal underworld was replaced by the more insidious corruption of big business. Resultantly social inequality in Gotham rises to the point where there is a brewing contempt of the rich by the underclasses. Bruce Wayne, playboy billionaire is revealed as Batman... the very person who created the lie that allowed the situation to come about in the first place. He created a situation which the lower classes could perceive has kept them down while he benefits.

Bane can use this to completely destroy the reputation of Bruce Wayne in the eyes of Gotham, allowing him to be seen as a hero when he breaks Batman, engendering a sense of loyalty in the population of Gotham that he seeks to exploit.

That would have been a more interesting (and admittedly difficult) conflict to resolve than 'Oh look! A bomb! Uh oh!'

To be honest though, the bomb wasn't the problem. There is nothing wrong with raising the stakes to that level. Where the film failed (IMHO) was that when it attempted to raise the stakes, the drama itself didn't reflect that. The ramifications of what was happening weren't keenly felt enough. The execution was flat at times.

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Old 08-31-2012, 10:39 AM   #647
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That would have been a more interesting (and admittedly difficult) conflict to resolve than 'Oh look! A bomb! Uh oh!'
That would have been a damn tricky one to resolve, that's for sure. I'd argue impossible, with the story they were telling.

Also if Bruce was outed as Batman, it would've changed the ending drastically.

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Old 08-31-2012, 05:03 PM   #648
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Hmmmm. Off the top of my head the benefit could be...

Public perception has been pretty consistently negative towards Batman up until the point of TDKR. He starts the film as a wanted criminal roundly hated by the population. It's revealed he created a lie to ensure that corruption of the mob could be addressed, but as a result of this the overtly corrupt criminal underworld was replaced by the more insidious corruption of big business. Resultantly social inequality in Gotham rises to the point where there is a brewing contempt of the rich by the underclasses. Bruce Wayne, playboy billionaire is revealed as Batman... the very person who created the lie that allowed the situation to come about in the first place. He created a situation which the lower classes could perceive has kept them down while he benefits.

Bane can use this to completely destroy the reputation of Bruce Wayne in the eyes of Gotham, allowing him to be seen as a hero when he breaks Batman, engendering a sense of loyalty in the population of Gotham that he seeks to exploit.

That would have been a more interesting (and admittedly difficult) conflict to resolve than 'Oh look! A bomb! Uh oh!'

To be honest though, the bomb wasn't the problem. There is nothing wrong with raising the stakes to that level. Where the film failed (IMHO) was that when it attempted to raise the stakes, the drama itself didn't reflect that. The ramifications of what was happening weren't keenly felt enough. The execution was flat at times.
You sir deserve a cookie for this post. That is actually better than what I had in my head. A resolution would be an difficult though with out it seemingly like a rich vs poor conflict.

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Old 08-31-2012, 07:09 PM   #649
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
That would have been a damn tricky one to resolve, that's for sure. I'd argue impossible, with the story they were telling.

Also if Bruce was outed as Batman, it would've changed the ending drastically.
Oh I definitely agree. I do wonder if at some point an arc like this wasn't considered though, because the themes are all there brewing along in the background. I get the impression that the seeds that were planted were ducked in order to tell a more conventional story.

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Old 08-31-2012, 07:25 PM   #650
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Originally Posted by TinkerTailor View Post
I get the impression that the seeds that were planted were ducked in order to tell a more conventional story.
I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Partly because much of the more interesting content is based on Dickensian literature, I feel that there is a more compelling story lying underneath the standard "ticking bomb", off-the-peg narrative that we saw.

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