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Old 12-27-2012, 02:41 PM   #826
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I think everyone knew that if Talia was going to be in this film, it would be a much different dynamic from the comics because in this version, Ra's can actually die permanently and therefore avenging him and assuming his mantle becomes a clear motivation for Talia to even enter the story.

I guess because I was pretty much expecting that, I couldn't really be "disappointed" when that's how it went. I think the theory about Nolan originally wanting to include just one femme fatale (Talia) makes a good deal of sense. So rather than one extremely gray femme fatale, we got two- one gray, but ultimately good, and another mysterious, but ultimately evil. I enjoyed this approach because I got to enjoy two great actresses filling out substantial roles in the Bat-universe. Jonah rightly claimed that it wouldn't be right to tell a complete Batman tale without including Catwoman, and similarly with them bookending the story with the LOS, you pretty much need to include the daughter of Ra's, especially when the seeds were already planted in the story for him to have a family. I also think the dual femme fatale approach, while decreasing the screen time and development of both characters, kept you on your toes for which direction the biggest betrayal was coming from (because face it- ALL his films have betrayal and deception). Playing a little game with the audience's expectations regarding movie tropes, as Nolan tends to do.

Speaking of which, I have a sneaking suspicion that Nolan used the WTF take of that death scene because he was trying to evoke an old, film noir style, theatrical sort of death. Not that I have any idea what he was thinking, but I can imagine him going for that sort of thing. It's most likely a bit of strange taste on his part, rather than some sloppy oversight like people seem to think. He had other options, and that's the one he chose for whatever reason.

I do feel bad for Marion that she got all the ridicule for it, but whatever. It's less than a second of screen time. I continue to enjoy her presence more and more in this movie each time I watch it.

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Old 12-27-2012, 02:45 PM   #827
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Here are some quotes from this Hollywood Reporter article-Christopher Nolan on 'Extreme Places' in 'The Dark Knight Rises

“Moving on to Dark Knight Rises, I knew that the League of Shadows had to come back,” he says of the secret society of assassins led by Liam Neeson’s Ra’s Al Ghul, the violent Darwinist who recruited Bruce Wayne and taught him the tricks of the stealth-warrior trade in the first film. “I knew that we had to return to Batman Begins and those philosophical ideas of Ra’s Al Ghul, those challenges — that all had to come back.

Scheduling Cotillard’s scenes as Miranda Tate was tricky, given that the actress’ pregnancy was far along when The Dark Knight Rises went into production. “We sorta had to move the schedule around so not only could she have the baby but, you know, to lose the baby weight,” says Roven, “and be a mom.”

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Old 12-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #828
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Violent Darwinist? What does that mean?

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Old 12-27-2012, 03:21 PM   #829
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It does make me wonder. Nolan's apparent disapproval for Talia's inclusion in Justice League Mortal? I reckon he may of at least at the back of his mind had the idea of brining the trilogy full circle with Talia's eventual inclusion as well as possibly the return of the Joker if Heath was still with us.

At the end of the day, Ra's was a huge part of this Batman's creation and including Talia as a way of brining things full circle back to the very beginning for Bruce and Batman would make sense. It's just a shame that we really got a throw-away character with the 'Talia' name tag, rather than a more fleshed and deeper character akin to how she is presented in the comics.

I know I'll more than likely get destroyed for this, but the more I think about it and the more I watch TDKR, I find that the Selina/Catwoman character is one that isn't really essential to the story nor is it one that if taken out would be very detrimental to the structure of the story. At most times she feels more tacked on than anything, likely due to Jonah's insistence on having her worked into the story. Apart from stealing Bruce's fingerprints I don't see where exactly she plays into the main structure of the story, but rather just hangs on to it for the ride.

Given Marion's light schedule I presume Nolan saw the opportunity to include another iconic character from the mythos which would please the fanboys and fangirls, while also subsidising and hgelping fill the void of the female charcter part for an underutilised Talia character that quite possibly due to Marion's able commitment may not have been what Nolan truly originally intended her (Talia) to have been.
I wholeheartedly agree, actually, even with the bit about Selina feeling tacked on. I'm with you on that, and I'll most likely get destroyed for it too. Hathaway's Catwoman was charming and had a good character for sure, but I wasn't a fan of how she was worked into the story quite frankly.

I appreciated the nice chemistry and exchanges she had with Bale, but she very much felt like an outside party to the plot's focus the way I saw it and I found that there was a blatant fanservice aspect to her inclusion rather than a feeling of belonging at times. Like you say, she helps strenghen Bruce's character and plays off him well but she was along for the ride mostly and to fill the void of a partner for Bruce to be happy with at the end.

Sometimes I truly feel like if they weren't rushing to make this the final entry in the franchise we wouldn't be feeling the weight of all this baggage on the film and it would have given it more of a chance to breathe as a story. If Jonah's thought process was "you can't end the franchise without Catwoman [or Robin]", he would probably have done better convincing Chris to just, y'know, wait a little longer to end it so that you don't unload all these big can of worms on one film that might not suit them.

I understand Nolan's fear of episodicness and wanting to finish his mythos with all the essential elements but you can only really do one or the other without cutting off the fat imho, otherwise it comes off unsatisfying and that's how it turned out for me. Nolan didn't really pick a side there, he did both, kind of like the ending was Batman becoming a matyr figure but the symbol lives on through Blake at the same time. I feel like one negates the other and leaves you with a bit of a mess.

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Old 12-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #830
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I wholeheartedly agree, actually, even with the bit about Selina feeling tacked on. I'm with you on that, and I'll most likely get destroyed for it too. Hathaway's Catwoman was charming and had a good character for sure, but I wasn't a fan of how she was worked into the story quite frankly.

I appreciated the nice chemistry and exchanges she had with Bale, but she very much felt like an outside party to the plot's focus the way I saw it and I found that there was a blatant fanservice aspect to her inclusion rather than a feeling of belonging at times. Like you say, she helps strenghen Bruce's character and plays off him well but she was along for the ride mostly and to fill the void of a partner for Bruce to be happy with at the end.

Sometimes I truly feel like if they weren't rushing to make this the final entry in the franchise we wouldn't be feeling the weight of all this baggage on the film and it would have given it more of a chance to breathe as a story. If Jonah's thought process was "you can't end the franchise without Catwoman [or Robin]", he would probably have done better convincing Chris to just, y'know, wait a little longer to end it so that you don't unload all these big can of worms on one film that might not suit them.

I understand Nolan's fear of episodicness and wanting to finish his mythos with all the essential elements but you can only really do one or the other without cutting off the fat imho, otherwise it comes off unsatisfying and that's how it turned out for me. Nolan didn't really pick a side there, he did both, kind of like the ending was Batman becoming a matyr figure but the symbol lives on through Blake at the same time. I feel like one negates the other and leaves you with a bit of a mess.
Agree completely with all of that. I wouldn't even say Selina directly helped Bruce, but rather he helped her find the right path and way, which in turn gave Bruce a project if you will to focus on and inspire him (Selina), along with Blake's will and determination to fight like Bruce in his early years.

As you say, it does feel as if Nolan tried to cover or at least touch upon and address all the various types of conclusions that could have been drawn at the end, but it sort of seems to come off as a bit crowded, convulted and not really definitive.

Although the likliness is most probably non-existent, I'd love to have heard Chris' original take on the third installment, before Jonah's pressed him with his persuasive inclusion of Selina/Catwoman.

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Old 12-27-2012, 03:50 PM   #831
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I think everyone knew that if Talia was going to be in this film, it would be a much different dynamic from the comics because in this version, Ra's can actually die permanently and therefore avenging him and assuming his mantle becomes a clear motivation for Talia to even enter the story.

I guess because I was pretty much expecting that, I couldn't really be "disappointed" when that's how it went. I think the theory about Nolan originally wanting to include just one femme fatale (Talia) makes a good deal of sense. So rather than one extremely gray femme fatale, we got two- one gray, but ultimately good, and another mysterious, but ultimately evil. I enjoyed this approach because I got to enjoy two great actresses filling out substantial roles in the Bat-universe. Jonah rightly claimed that it wouldn't be right to tell a complete Batman tale without including Catwoman, and similarly with them bookending the story with the LOS, you pretty much need to include the daughter of Ra's, especially when the seeds were already planted in the story for him to have a family. I also think the dual femme fatale approach, while decreasing the screen time and development of both characters, kept you on your toes for which direction the biggest betrayal was coming from (because face it- ALL his films have betrayal and deception). Playing a little game with the audience's expectations regarding movie tropes, as Nolan tends to do.


Speaking of which, I have a sneaking suspicion that Nolan used the WTF take of that death scene because he was trying to evoke an old, film noir style, theatrical sort of death. Not that I have any idea what he was thinking, but I can imagine him going for that sort of thing. It's most likely a bit of strange taste on his part, rather than some sloppy oversight like people seem to think. He had other options, and that's the one he chose for whatever reason.

I do feel bad for Marion that she got all the ridicule for it, but whatever. It's less than a second of screen time. I continue to enjoy her presence more and more in this movie each time I watch it.
Good points.

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I know I'll more than likely get destroyed for this, but the more I think about it and the more I watch TDKR, I find that the Selina/Catwoman character is one that isn't really essential to the story nor is it one that if taken out would be very detrimental to the structure of the story. At most times she feels more tacked on than anything, likely due to Jonah's insistence on having her worked into the story. Apart from stealing Bruce's fingerprints I don't see where exactly she plays into the main structure of the story, but rather just hangs on to it for the ride.
Nah, Selina is essential to the story because she basically represents the new path Bruce chooses at the end of the movie, that of starting anew and 'actually living'. Not to mention that she also represents one of the reasons for him choosing that path. It's no coincidence that he ends up with her in the end and that they both live, while Bane and Talia, who could never let go of their extreme tendencies and start anew, perish.

There's also the fact that Selina's the one who gets Bruce back into 'batmaning'.

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Old 12-27-2012, 04:05 PM   #832
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Nah, Selina is essential to the story because she basically represents the new path Bruce chooses at the end of the movie, that of starting anew and 'actually living'. Not to mention that she also represents one of the reasons for him choosing that path. It's no coincidence that he ends up with her in the end and that they both live, while Bane and Talia, who could never let go of their extreme tendencies and start anew, perish.
Those are fair points, but you could have just as well included almost any type of female character to give Bruce the out to start afresh and live in peace. It didn't explicitly have to be Selina, to the hardcore crowd probably, but in general, not really. As for her being the reason he chooses that path, I wouldn't necessarily say she was the one who directly persuaded him to do that, as Bruce was the one who was trying to convince her to choose that path at the beginning. Though as has been mentioned she was the device that presented that 'way out'.


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There's also the fact that Selina's the one who gets Bruce back into 'batmaning'.
To be honest, I'd credit that more to Blake than Selina, who was the one that really seemed to light a firework up his backside and convince him to pick himself up and get back in business after he visited him at the beginning.

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Old 12-27-2012, 04:41 PM   #833
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Those are fair points, but you could have just as well included almost any type of female character to give Bruce the out to start afresh and live in peace. It didn't explicitly have to be Selina, to the hardcore crowd probably, but in general, not really. As for her being the reason he chooses that path, I wouldn't necessarily say she was the one who directly persuaded him to do that, as Bruce was the one who was trying to convince her to choose that path at the beginning. Though as has been mentioned she was the device that presented that 'way out'.
Hmm, I don't know, Selina seems to have a specific reason for wanting to start anew and that ties into directly with who she is: a thief with a heart of gold that's got quite the criminal record on her. So I don't think they could've just given the role to any female character. Plus, there's the fact that I like the idea of Bruce staying with her in the end because, to me anyway, it harkens to Batman and Catwoman's relationship in the comics, where they're practically soulmates.

You're right, he came to the realisation on his own. I was thinking of the romantic side of things, in the sense that because of Rachel's death he couldn't see any real reason to 'actually live'. With Selina it's the exact opposite: she's basically his female counterpart after he finds the will to live again. When you think about it, Selina really is the ideal woman for the 'new' Bruce Wayne, as she shared his desire to start fresh. I don't think he didn't have this idea in mind when he was thinking of starting a new life.

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To be honest, I'd credit that more to Blake than Selina, who was the one that really seemed to light a firework up his backside and convince him to pick himself up and get back in business after he visited him at the beginning.
That's true as well, there were definitely a bunch of gradual steps to him returning, but Selina is basically presented as the first of those, maybe not the essential one, but it's because of her that Bruce goes into the batcave for the first time in 'a long while' to look up traces on her.

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Old 12-27-2012, 04:59 PM   #834
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Hmm, I don't know, Selina seems to have a specific reason for wanting to start anew and that ties into directly with who she is: a thief with a heart of gold that's got quite the criminal record on her. So I don't think they could've just given the role to any female character. Plus, there's the fact that I like the idea of Bruce staying with her in the end because, to me anyway, it harkens to Batman and Catwoman's relationship in the comics, where they're practically soulmates.

You're right, he came to the realisation on his own. I was thinking of the romantic side of things, in the sense that because of Rachel's death he couldn't see any real reason to 'actually live'. With Selina it's the exact opposite: she's basically his female counterpart after he finds the will to live again. When you think about it, Selina really is the ideal woman for the 'new' Bruce Wayne, as she shared his desire to start fresh. I don't think he didn't have this idea in mind when he was thinking of starting a new life.
Yeah, I can see and somewhat agree with the idea that it seems fitting to have Bruce and Selina/Batman and Catwoman be the ones that ultimatley end up together as they are a good fit, but the way it was presented, it didn't feel as though these points were stressed, which is why I say if you had of put in another female character type, it could have worked just as well. Maybe not in the eyes of the hardcore crowd, but I don't think the general audience would have really cared either way.

As regards to Selina wanting to start afresh from the get go, I'd say that is more down to Bruce convincing her, as she doesn't really seem to come to that conclusion until near the end once her conscious comes in, her mind is opened to see the bigger picture and her feelings for Bruce/Batman really start to develop. Before all of that she seemed more than contempt in carrying on as she was. It was only Bruce's convincing and reasoning that seemed to make her really believe that there was a way out.


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That's true as well, there were definitely a bunch of gradual steps to him returning, but Selina is basically presented as the first of those, maybe not the essential one, but it's because of her that Bruce goes into the batcave for the first time in 'a long while' to look up traces on her.
Yeah, I'd agree that she probably presented one of the many reasons that convinced him to return, but the major kick he got and needed was from Blake, imo.

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Old 12-27-2012, 05:06 PM   #835
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Hmm, I don't know, Selina seems to have a specific reason for wanting to start anew and that ties into directly with who she is: a thief with a heart of gold that's got quite the criminal record on her. So I don't think they could've just given the role to any female character. Plus, there's the fact that I like the idea of Bruce staying with her in the end because, to me anyway, it harkens to Batman and Catwoman's relationship in the comics, where they're practically soulmates.

You're right, he came to the realisation on his own. I was thinking in terms of having a reason to live after Rachel, so on the romantic side of things. When you think about it, Selina really is the ideal woman for the 'new' Bruce Wayne, as she shared his desire to start fresh. I don't think he didn't have this idea in mind when he was thinking of starting a new life.
And that's another reason I think she 'belongs' in the story, at least thematically. A thief with a heart of gold is the pretty much the ideal character to have caught in the middle of an impending class revolution. She gives us the POV of someone who initially is in favor of bringing the wealthy down, but gradually develops a less absolute view of Gotham's elite thanks to her relationship with Bruce.

Conversely, she gives Bruce a bit of a different perspective on criminals too, which I think is all part of his journey towards a life beyond the Bat.

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Old 12-27-2012, 05:35 PM   #836
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Yeah, I can see and somewhat agree with the idea that it seems fitting to have Bruce and Selina/Batman and Catwoman be the ones that ultimatley end up together as they are a good fit, but the way it was presented, it didn't feel as though these points were stressed, which is why I say if you had of put in another female character type, it could have worked just as well. Maybe not in the eyes of the hardcore crowd, but I don't think the general audience would have really cared either way.

As regards to Selina wanting to start afresh from the get go, I'd say that is more down to Bruce convincing her, as she doesn't really seem to come to that conclusion until near the end once her conscious comes in, her mind is opened to see the bigger picture and her feelings for Bruce/Batman really start to develop. Before all of that she seemed more than contempt in carrying on as she was. It was only Bruce's convincing and reasoning that seemed to make her really believe that there was a way out.
You're right, they weren't really stressed, but that's just the thing. Imagine if the same had happened with just a random female character, you'd have people asking why would Batman give up his crusading for some random chick? With Catwoman, even if those particular points I mentioned aren't stressed, the relationship between her and Bruce and the significance of it to him gets a pass.

Also, wasn't she looking for the clean slate device from the start? I was under the impression that was the reason she went ahead and stole Bruce's fingerprints for Dagget.

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Old 12-27-2012, 05:45 PM   #837
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If Selina hadn't been included in this film, would Talia have been a suitable choice for Bruce to settle down with IF she wasn't written in the way she was in the final product where she was bent on revenge on Batman and Gotham; let's say that it was all Bane in this other version? Or would the fact that he was involved in the events that led to her Father's death still make it too weird and impossible alone for them to be able to settle down with each other?

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Old 12-27-2012, 05:59 PM   #838
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I think the alternative would be Miranda just being a new character unrelated to anyone else and she becomes the catalyst for Bruce to come out of his 8-year exile and stop brooding. She would help out a lot in Wayne Enterprises and all that stuff and other stuff that would set her apart from a typical damsel in distress.

Of course, Bane would do things more on his own and still end up using the machine to hold Gotham hostage.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:04 PM   #839
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One of the (many) problems with the underdeveloped Bruce/Talia relationship is that Miranda doesn't even pretend to give a **** during the time that he leaves her at the manor (and vice-versa) and then eventually shows up in that scene with Lucius and Selina and Miranda. We also never see Alfred's reaction to everything going to hell or Lucius' either. Nobody is shown to care, except Selina (somewhat) and Blake.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:14 PM   #840
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You're right, they weren't really stressed, but that's just the thing. Imagine if the same had happened with just a random female character, you'd have people asking why would Batman give up his crusading for some random chick? With Catwoman, even if those particular points I mentioned aren't stressed, the relationship between her and Bruce and the significance of it to him gets a pass.
Those are fair points. However, a new start afresh for Bruce doesn't necessarily have to be with a woman at all. For example an ending akin to that in The Shawshank Redemption could have been more than acceptable, imo. Only this time with Alfred meeting up with Bruce at the end.

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Also, wasn't she looking for the clean slate device from the start? I was under the impression that was the reason she went ahead and stole Bruce's fingerprints for Dagget.
That's true, I completely forgot about that, lol. You're right, it explains why she says to Bruce at the charity ball that starting afresh isn't possible as all data and information regarding who she is and her past has been collated and stored.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:17 PM   #841
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If Selina hadn't been included in this film, would Talia have been a suitable choice for Bruce to settle down with IF she wasn't written in the way she was in the final product where she was bent on revenge on Batman and Gotham; let's say that it was all Bane in this other version? Or would the fact that he was involved in the events that led to her Father's death still make it too weird and impossible alone for them to be able to settle down with each other?
Maybe? Maybe not? Though the potential for getting a more in depth and fleshed out version of Talia, the one that is conflicted between her love for Bruce and her love and loyalty for her Father could have been really interesting to see.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:18 PM   #842
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The Town. The ending to the Town. Similar to TDKR..but better.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:20 PM   #843
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One thing I think most of us can agree on is that the potential introduction and inclusion of Talia in BB, possibly at the expense of Rachel Dawes was a real big missed oppotunity.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:20 PM   #844
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The Town. The ending to the Town. Similar to TDKR..but better.
Yeah, that's another good example.

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Old 12-27-2012, 06:35 PM   #845
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Those are fair points. However, a new start afresh for Bruce doesn't necessarily have to be with a woman at all. For example an ending akin to that in The Shawshank Redemption could have been more than acceptable, imo. Only this time with Alfred meeting up with Bruce at the end.

This is the type of ending I wanted. IMO, in the comics Bruce shouldn't end up with Selina or Talia and TDKR only strengthened my belief. I agree with pretty much everything you and Nev have said. Ultimately, cramming Selina and Talia in one movie weakened both. I get that a lot of people loved Bruce and Selina's interactions, but I find their relationship shallow and overrated in the film, even though Bale and Hathaway have chemistry. And I don't need to go into how disappointing Bruce/Miranda was. It would've been better and less cliche to have Bruce ride off alone into the sunset, cause you don't need a spouse to be happy.

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Welcome to the Batman v Superman forums, where people will take a perfectly reasonable comment you make and twist it into something completely different to make themselves feel better.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:22 PM   #846
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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This is the type of ending I wanted. IMO, in the comics Bruce shouldn't end up with Selina or Talia and TDKR only strengthened my belief. I agree with pretty much everything you and Nev have said. Ultimately, cramming Selina and Talia in one movie weakened both. I get that a lot of people loved Bruce and Selina's interactions, but I find their relationship shallow and overrated in the film, even though Bale and Hathaway have chemistry. And I don't need to go into how disappointing Bruce/Miranda was. It would've been better and less cliche to have Bruce ride off alone into the sunset, cause you don't need a spouse to be happy.
That's exactly how I feel.

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Yeah, I'm all about subtext. I'm pretty sure I could watch two hours of monkeys mating if it had a mass of subtext underneath it all. :o
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:48 PM   #847
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I think Bruce deserved to find happiness with a woman after 8 years of bearing the weight of Rachel's death on his shoulders. Him going steady with a woman was the perfect way to illustrate him choosing a normal life and the fact that he had moved on from Rachel. If he was sitting at that table with another random bimbo it wouldn't show any growth.

Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle giving a life beyond Gotham a chance was very emotionally satisfying for me. That shot brings a smile to my face every time.


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Old 12-27-2012, 07:53 PM   #848
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I think they were trying to hit (resolve) 2 (or more like 3) stones (character endings) at once by showing Alfred seeing Bruce and Selina together at the end: a) It gives Alfred some peace of mind by making his fantasy for Bruce a reality; b) It shows that Bruce is alive and giving a normal life a chance; c) It shows that Selina made it out of Gotham and is getting her "fresh start" as well. At least that's how I took it.

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Old 12-27-2012, 08:44 PM   #849
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

There are some bold choices made in this film too. For example, I went spoiler free on my first view of the film on the movie theater. I was so much worried that ol' Bruce was gonna kick the bucket, and frankly I didn't want him to. Having him have a happy ending of sorts was inmensely satisfying for me. It was different, and yet done in a very familiar bittersweet way. At the end, we only see Bruce giving himself a chance for happiness. He still has to go a long way, he and Selina embarked on different journey, but just like Alfred, we will know that he had made it.

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Old 12-27-2012, 11:37 PM   #850
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Yeah, and I don't like to knock him for it much because it's at least consistent. The one film with the least of it is TDK, but then the editors were working their butts off to give Heath's role the most respectful sendoff possible so I suspect that could have had something to do with it.
Guys, Lee Smith did all that hard work on TDK. He had assistant editors help him with sound effects and sound editing, but he was the one responsible for helping make Heath's performance so great by cutting it all together into one cohesive whole.

In fact, Smith was the sole editor on all three of Nolan's Batman films. He deserves some well-deserved kudos.

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