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Old 12-16-2012, 08:05 AM   #626
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

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Hmm...he does look nice in tailored suits, but I really prefer his scruffy, unrefined look better. It makes me chuckle in a positive way because as a huge Tolkien fan I think of him as the World's tallest Hobbit. I just love his curly, Hobbit hair a lot. But it seems that fame is taking that away from me though. I'm just very intimidated by guys that dress that way because it means there's a bit of snootiness and vanity there. Those kind of people are subversively nasty and condescending when you can't hear what they're saying.
Oh, I have read lots of interviews about and with him, an watched lots and lots of video interviews before and after the big break with Thor, not to mention fan experiences I've read or seen videos of, there is absolutely nothing snooty, nasty or condescending about that man. And I've had the experience of being disappointed with a celeb I liked behavior, so not so nave there. I think the dressing up these days may have more to do with looking good for the cameras, as a way to get attention for roles, if he looks the part of a leading man and is on the moviegoers radar he may get more and better parts. Of course i'm sure he likes looking good too, but who doesn't?

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Old 12-16-2012, 08:17 AM   #627
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

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Of course i'm sure he likes looking good too, but who doesn't?
I guess I must be a rarity then because I like super casual attire, heck I'm wearing my Yoga pants and an Autobot Logo T-Shirt right now, and don't like dressing snappy. I'm not into the whole "LOOK AT ME!!!!" culture. It's way too much work and stress for me. I just like to get up and go do stuff not obsess over my looks.

But seriously I find this....


....and this....


....and this more attractive to me.


Why you might ask? Well, it's because that image seems more real to me, more approachable, more regular average guy to me. Screw having to kiss Hollywood suit arse. Is it really worth becoming an indentured slave to them? That whole leading man stuff is a big, huge mafia manipulated crock too. I think Tom's talents are better left in the theater, not the bloated Hollywood industry. There are many great theater parts out there that he can make dazzling that are being snatched up by other guys because he has no time to do them.

But hot damn I love the look on his face in this image....

....that gets the motor running in this old, restoration needing roadster's engine.

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Old 12-16-2012, 08:34 AM   #628
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

The problem with doing more theater is I'll never get to see his work... so yeah, I'm selfish.

I could take either way, I don't think wearing a nice suit at a premier is equal to him being an indentured slave. Not at all. Like I said, who doesn't like looking good? And if it opens up more doors for him then great.

I am a slob myself. Too much work. Easier to just avoid looking in a mirror. LOL

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Old 12-16-2012, 08:55 AM   #629
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Oh I'm not slobbish in appearance accept at work where it's common to get filthy cleaning up filth. The clothes I usually where if I'm in public places, like the movies or dining out, are pretty much stain free. It just costs too much to wear nice clothes too. Yeesh, I'm lucky if I can afford a pair of jeans and a shirt nowadays. *sigh* But I have my responsibilities to the household I live in which means 50% of my meager check is already spent. But still do like dressed down, Hobbit Tom better than the sharp dressing one because I'd feel more comfortable and at ease with him dressed as casual as possible.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:09 AM   #630
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I suppose there is something to be said for that if one ever did meet him at an event or just ran into him on the street. Like the difference between feeling comfortable enough to say you appreciate his work etc... and just sort of hyperventilating and collapsing into a puddle of goo on the pavement.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:29 AM   #631
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Well, Because of my laid back casual nature I just feel very out of place among posh people is all.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:37 AM   #632
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Well, Because of my laid back casual nature I just feel very out of place among posh people is all.
I do as well, but I still like looking at Tom all prettied up and decked out. YUM.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:56 AM   #633
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Well, Because of my laid back casual nature I just feel very out of place among posh people is all.
But he's already considered posh, isn't he? Dragon School, Eton, Cambridge. He's also (or at least appears to be) an extremely kind and approachable person, no matter how he's dressed.

(Sorry for bursting in. This is my first post in five years.)

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:59 AM   #634
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no problem with the bursting in! The more the merrier!

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Old 12-16-2012, 10:05 AM   #635
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(Sorry for bursting in. This is my first post in five years.)
No apologies necessary! Welcome back! Hope you post some more.

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Old 12-16-2012, 10:18 AM   #636
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No apologies necessary! Welcome back! Hope you post some more.
Thank you. I probably will! I like the civil tone here. And I love the MCU. (rather fond of Tom H. too!) Enjoyed Phase I, loving the build up to Phase II.

I've visited quite a bit over the years, but stopped posting after the Spider-Man comics board turned into a land mine peppered battlefield (post One More Day).

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Old 12-16-2012, 10:33 AM   #637
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Thank you. I probably will! I like the civil tone here. And I love the MCU. (rather fond of Tom H. too!) Enjoyed Phase I, loving the build up to Phase II.

I've visited quite a bit over the years, but stopped posting after the Spider-Man comics board turned into a land mine peppered battlefield (post One More Day).
Thanks. We try to have fun here! Lots of people are supportive of that too, which I, for one, appreciate.

I agree about Phase II. It seems promising that all these films are going to be well done, with more involved plots than in Phase I, and astounding spectacles (fight sequences, magic displays, etc) too. I suspect it's an enormous challenge, and I laud everyone involved at Marvel who are making it happen. I'm so looking forward to the films!

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Old 12-16-2012, 11:11 AM   #638
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Awww... this is nice...

Quote:
Tom Hiddleston ‏@twhiddleston
To all those who put this together, you are insane and foolish and hilarious. I'm very touched & rather amazed. … http://say.ly/wPR4N5E

I didn't participate in the Project Wendy thingy but glad that they got a tweet acknowledging it and that he liked it.

not to mention I love it that two of my celeb crushes tweet each other.... lol...

Quote:
Tom Hiddleston ‏@twhiddleston
@mcgregor_ewan Ewan, I saw THE IMPOSSIBLE last night. It's shattering. You work in it is really, really beautiful. With love & respect. Tom

Ewan McGregor ‏@mcgregor_ewan
@twhiddleston cheers Tom. Thanks for the kind words. Was talking this morning to a director about our production of Othello. Made me miss it
Obi-Wan and Loki as twitter buds, now that would be like some really crazy cross fandom fan fiction. LOL .


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Old 12-16-2012, 12:01 PM   #639
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

lol this thread has flat out turned into a fangirl thread, notice how no one else posts in here anymore lol. lets talk about mcu loki guys too as well, instead of JUST Tom.

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Old 12-16-2012, 12:08 PM   #640
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Well ask me a MCU Loki question then. You know I'm game.


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Old 12-16-2012, 12:39 PM   #641
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lol this thread has flat out turned into a fangirl thread, notice how no one else posts in here anymore lol. lets talk about mcu loki guys too as well, instead of JUST Tom.
Okay. . .

So what do you think drives MCU Loki? I played back the Loki/Thor fight scene from Thor1 the other day. Some lines of dialogue:
Thor: Why have you done this?
Loki: To prove to father that I am a worthy son. When he wakes, I will have saved his life; I will have destroyed that race of monsters; and I will be true heir to the throne. [Note this is different from the on-line script]
. . . .
Loki: I never wanted the throne! I only wanted to be your equal.
Thor: I will not fight you brother!
Loki: I'm not your brother. I never was.
. . . .
Loki: You hear me, brother? There's nothing you can do!

And then, in The Avengers, we have (this is from a quote file, so may not be accurate):
Thor: I though you dead.
Loki: Did you mourn?
Thor: We all did. Our father...
Loki: Your father. He did tell you my true parentage, did he not?
Thor: We were raised together. We played together, we fought together. Do you remember none of that?
Loki: I remember a shadow, living in the shade of your greatness. I remember you tossing me into an abyss. I who was and should be king!
Thor: So you take the world I love as recompense for your imagined slights? No, the earth is under my protection, Loki.
[Loki laughs]
Loki: And you're doing a marvelous job with that. The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you ideally [sic] threat. I mean to rule them. That's why should I not...
Thor: Think yourself above them.
Loki: Well, yes.
Thor: Then you miss the truth of ruling, brother. A throne would suit you ill.

So we have:
I want to be king!
I never wanted to be king!
I should have been king!
Now I'll be king of Midgard!

And
We have the same father!
But you're not my brother! You never were!
Yes you are!
No you're not! At least, we don't have the same father!

Which is it, Loki?? Does he want to be king or doesn't he? And why? If he doesn't like the Midgardians and thinks himself above them, why on earth would he want to spend so much time with them? And is he in the House of Odin or out?

Now, I know you, Jon, have said that comics Loki is more straight-up evil, and I believe you (I do hope to enjoy it myself, but the interlibrary loan still hasn't come through!!). But this "I want to be king/no I don't!/yes I do!" stuff isn't exactly the material of evil machinations. (Not to mention the mischaracterization of how he wound up in the abyss, and his back and forth about whether Thor is his brother.)

So what's Loki's deal in the MCU? What is he really after? And will he obtain it in Thor2?

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Old 12-16-2012, 12:51 PM   #642
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Some other observations from the Thor/Loki fight:

Here's how the on-line script stages the bit I referenced above:

LOKI What is this newfound love for the Frost Giants? You, who would have killed them all with your bare hands.
THOR
I've changed.
LOKI
So have I. [Loki hits Thor across the face with Gungnir.]
LOKI (CONT'D) Fight me. [He swings Gungnir at Thor again. Thor catches it in his hand, rears back his hammer as if ready to return the blow, but instead takes to the air and flies past Loki, back towards the frozen controls. Loki spins around, aims Gungnir, and fires a blast which immobilizes Thor in the air. He hangs there, suspended. ]
THOR
Is the throne really worth what you've done? What you would become?
LOKI I never wanted the throne. I only wanted to be your equal. Now fight me! [ With a gesture of Gungnir, he flings Thor to the ground. Thor rises to his feet, turns to Loki. ]
THOR I will not fight you, brother.

It's too bad they didn't show this part. For one, it would have been cool to see some more magic. For another it would have shown that Thor is not (yet) getting drawn into this sparring with Loki but is instead focused on the more important concern of the ongoing destruction of Jotunheim.

(and the on-line script calls for more brutal hits on Loki's part)


The other bit I want to share is later, after they're back on the bridge. Loki is pinned by Mjolnir, and Thor is scooting along the Bifrost toward the observatory. Their lines essentially are:
Loki: Aigghhhh!
Thor: Hrrnnggh!

This exchange of grunts amuses me for some reason (even though they make sense in the story at that point).

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Old 12-16-2012, 02:03 PM   #643
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

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Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Okay. . .

So what do you think drives MCU Loki? I played back the Loki/Thor fight scene from Thor1 the other day. Some lines of dialogue:
Thor: Why have you done this?
Loki: To prove to father that I am a worthy son. When he wakes, I will have saved his life; I will have destroyed that race of monsters; and I will be true heir to the throne. [Note this is different from the on-line script]
. . . .
Loki: I never wanted the throne! I only wanted to be your equal.
Thor: I will not fight you brother!
Loki: I'm not your brother. I never was.
. . . .
Loki: You hear me, brother? There's nothing you can do!

And then, in The Avengers, we have (this is from a quote file, so may not be accurate):
Thor: I though you dead.
Loki: Did you mourn?
Thor: We all did. Our father...
Loki: Your father. He did tell you my true parentage, did he not?
Thor: We were raised together. We played together, we fought together. Do you remember none of that?
Loki: I remember a shadow, living in the shade of your greatness. I remember you tossing me into an abyss. I who was and should be king!
Thor: So you take the world I love as recompense for your imagined slights? No, the earth is under my protection, Loki.
[Loki laughs]
Loki: And you're doing a marvelous job with that. The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you ideally [sic] threat. I mean to rule them. That's why should I not...
Thor: Think yourself above them.
Loki: Well, yes.
Thor: Then you miss the truth of ruling, brother. A throne would suit you ill.

So we have:
I want to be king!
I never wanted to be king!
I should have been king!
Now I'll be king of Midgard!

And
We have the same father!
But you're not my brother! You never were!
Yes you are!
No you're not! At least, we don't have the same father!

Which is it, Loki?? Does he want to be king or doesn't he? And why? If he doesn't like the Midgardians and thinks himself above them, why on earth would he want to spend so much time with them? And is he in the House of Odin or out?

Now, I know you, Jon, have said that comics Loki is more straight-up evil, and I believe you (I do hope to enjoy it myself, but the interlibrary loan still hasn't come through!!). But this "I want to be king/no I don't!/yes I do!" stuff isn't exactly the material of evil machinations. (Not to mention the mischaracterization of how he wound up in the abyss, and his back and forth about whether Thor is his brother.)

So what's Loki's deal in the MCU? What is he really after? And will he obtain it in Thor2?
Personally, do think MCU loki is evil. but not in the sense of the comics. I think Loki is confused about what he really wants, and how to obtain it. It seems that MCU loki is still very selfish. What he wants, is what he wants. What he thinks he deserves. He doesn't see from other's perspectives, so he goes about it his own ways. This confusion, trying to self decide what he thinks he deserves, has turned him into a more evil person. In that sense, i think MCU loki has become, and IS evil. Opposed to comic loki just being evil.

We did know loki was mischivious in his own right. Letting the frost giants in to ruin thor's big day. mischevious or not, letting a hostile race into your home during a king's correnation, that is not just fun, it is fun for him, but that fun is driven by something somewhat evil. I think the source of MCU Loki's evil isn't what has happened before our eyes. But a compilation of things that have happened over the 1000 and years. driven by his jealousy of thor, and by his learning of magic, and natural mischevious tendicies. I think these things have lead him to do evil things to the point where it has turned him into an evil person. Opposed to being evil because he is evil. Understand what I am trying to say? I am writing notes for my final tomorrow, so I am kind of thinking biologically right now lol so my words may not be best. But I think this is the source for Loki's evil.

now, to further analyse on "what he wants" I think he is confused, and his confusion comes from all these factors that lead up to his evil. I think ultimately what he wants, is what he thinks he deserves. Though he isn't sure what he thinks he deserves, because of all the conflicts going on in his head. But what he does know, that whatever it is he thinks he deserves, is that it is his right to have it. Therefor, doing evil things doesn't matter, because whatever this deserved status or whatever is, he thinks its his, and deserves it. But due to his emotional upbringing, his jealously, and everything that has turned him into a rather evil person, he isn't sure what that specific "deserved" thing is. All he knows is what he DESERVES something, and that he has a right to take it, regardless of how he does.

and his upbringings and situations of brought him to this mentallity. Which in a way, is a very intelligent way of character development. He IS evil in the mcu. He just isn't evil cause he's evil like he is in the comics, he is evil because circumstance has lead him to do things HE believes he deserves. understand what I am trying to say? Sorry if it's confusing, I am trying to study and listen to led zeppelin and type this response lol

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Old 12-16-2012, 02:37 PM   #644
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Personally, do think MCU loki is evil. but not in the sense of the comics. I think Loki is confused about what he really wants, and how to obtain it. It seems that MCU loki is still very selfish. What he wants, is what he wants. What he thinks he deserves. He doesn't see from other's perspectives, so he goes about it his own ways. This confusion, trying to self decide what he thinks he deserves, has turned him into a more evil person. In that sense, i think MCU loki has become, and IS evil. Opposed to comic loki just being evil.
. . .
now, to further analyse on "what he wants" I think he is confused, and his confusion comes from all these factors that lead up to his evil. I think ultimately what he wants, is what he thinks he deserves. Though he isn't sure what he thinks he deserves, because of all the conflicts going on in his head. But what he does know, that whatever it is he thinks he deserves, is that it is his right to have it. Therefor, doing evil things doesn't matter, because whatever this deserved status or whatever is, he thinks its his, and deserves it. But due to his emotional upbringing, his jealously, and everything that has turned him into a rather evil person, he isn't sure what that specific "deserved" thing is. All he knows is what he DESERVES something, and that he has a right to take it, regardless of how he does.
...
He just isn't evil cause he's evil like he is in the comics, he is evil because circumstance has lead him to do things HE believes he deserves. understand what I am trying to say?
Yeah. He is missing something, and he feels he deserves something. But he can't articulate what it is. But he grasps for it, without regard to what is a morally right or wrong thing to do.

To press a little further, what do *you* think he is missing? (Loki can't articulate it, but can you?) What will quench this thirst? And is that something obtainable or unobtainable in Thor2?

And if he obtains it, whatever it is, will he continue to be evil, in your view? Or will he cease to be evil?

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:08 PM   #645
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Yeah. He is missing something, and he feels he deserves something. But he can't articulate what it is. But he grasps for it, without regard to what is a morally right or wrong thing to do.

To press a little further, what do *you* think he is missing? (Loki can't articulate it, but can you?) What will quench this thirst? And is that something obtainable or unobtainable in Thor2?

And if he obtains it, whatever it is, will he continue to be evil, in your view? Or will he cease to be evil?
to be flat out honest, I think it is two things,
i think it is power, and being superior to thor, and getting back at him. for many reasons of his, I think what he needs is power, and to be above people, it will give him what he wants, and give him a peace of mind. I think he wants to be viewed as a superior. Notice how often he refered to himself as, or was a king in the avengers. I think he wants power, and to be viewed as a superior. But more in a symbolic way, opposed to, just wanting to have a throne, I think there is a bit of symbolism to it. I think, had he succeeded on Earth, he would have been content. Not for his father, not for his family, but for himself, he would have given himself what he thinks he deserves. but since he couldn't full achieve it, he still doesn't know what will keep his hunger satisfied. That is what I think is going on, and it is why I think there will be more manipulating, and trying to get power in thor 2. I think he chose earth because he knows thor loves earth. He mocks thor, I think he wants this...

1. Power for his own reasons, to eliminate confusion
2. To view himself as an equal to thor, while causing him pain

those two things, though the reasons for them may not necessarily be evil, those two things are qualities of an evil man. Personally, i think it helps me say that MCU Loki is indeed evil. Just a different kind of evil. But I think we can conclude that even though the causes for his motives weren't evil, he ultimately has become evil

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:40 PM   #646
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to be flat out honest, I think it is two things,
i think it is power, and being superior to thor, and getting back at him. for many reasons of his, I think what he needs is power, and to be above people, it will give him what he wants, and give him a peace of mind. I think he wants to be viewed as a superior. Notice how often he refered to himself as, or was a king in the avengers. I think he wants power, and to be viewed as a superior. But more in a symbolic way, opposed to, just wanting to have a throne, I think there is a bit of symbolism to it. I think, had he succeeded on Earth, he would have been content. Not for his father, not for his family, but for himself, he would have given himself what he thinks he deserves. but since he couldn't full achieve it, he still doesn't know what will keep his hunger satisfied. That is what I think is going on, and it is why I think there will be more manipulating, and trying to get power in thor 2. I think he chose earth because he knows thor loves earth. He mocks thor, I think he wants this...

1. Power for his own reasons, to eliminate confusion
2. To view himself as an equal to thor, while causing him pain

those two things, though the reasons for them may not necessarily be evil, those two things are qualities of an evil man. Personally, i think it helps me say that MCU Loki is indeed evil. Just a different kind of evil. But I think we can conclude that even though the causes for his motives weren't evil, he ultimately has become evil
Thanks. This is an interesting discussion!

I'm not certain it's power per se that he wants. I think he wants the respect or admiration of people around him. To allude to Machiavelli, he probably would like to be both feared and loved, but if he can only have one, he'll take fear (if he's smart and has read Machiavelli ).

I agree with you on point #2. I suspect he is currently framing the situation as Thor actively working against him (example: his comment about Thor tossing him into the abyss), when it is more that Thor inadvertently stoked Loki's resentments over the years, not realizing what he was doing.

I am leaning toward disagreeing with you, though, as to whether achieving that power would truly quench his thirst. First of all, a lot of times people who seek power tend to find they need more after they get their first taste. Second, it's not the power itself but the respect and awe of people around him that he is seeking. Having the fear of the people turns out not to be quite the same thing.

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Old 12-16-2012, 06:08 PM   #647
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Thanks. This is an interesting discussion!
character analysis is a great joy, especially if you look at is psychologically lol

Quote:
I'm not certain it's power per se that he wants. I think he wants the respect or admiration of people around him. To allude to Machiavelli, he probably would like to be both feared and loved, but if he can only have one, he'll take fear (if he's smart and has read Machiavelli ).
that's EXACTLY what I meant when I said that he wants power, but more so in a symbolic way lol. Exactly what I meant, you just said it better

Quote:
I agree with you on point #2. I suspect he is currently framing the situation as Thor actively working against him (example: his comment about Thor tossing him into the abyss), when it is more that Thor inadvertently stoked Loki's resentments over the years, not realizing what he was doing.
Exactly. That is one aspect of Loki, even the MCU CAN'T ignore. A huge part of his motives for a specific story are to cause thor pain, or humiliate thor, or make himself superior. In fact, in the thor: lord of midgard arc, Loki stopped all his mischief, and was completely on Thor's side, and was for Thor's ruling. Because it was exactly what Loki wanted of asgard. The fact that LOKI was supporting what Thor was doing should suggest that Thor indeed got power hungry and ****ed up lol. It took Magni to help daddy realize that


Quote:
I am leaning toward disagreeing with you, though, as to whether achieving that power would truly quench his thirst. First of all, a lot of times people who seek power tend to find they need more after they get their first taste. Second, it's not the power itself but the respect and awe of people around him that he is seeking. Having the fear of the people turns out not to be quite the same thing.

yeah, I disagree with me too lol. Not gunna lie, I just said it cause it was the quickest way to end my post XD, if you didn't address it, I was going to bring that back up when I had the time lol, but I am taking a break for a little while, and you brought it up, I can continue on it.

I don't think it would "quench his thirst" persay, like you, however, I think it WOULD temporarily hide his thirst. You know what I mean?? Kinda like a pain killer. It would keep his mind off it. But as you said, ultimately someone in power wants more power. Having someone fear you though, Loki could like that. But it may not turn out to be the way he wanted.

However, I think that ULTIMATELY, it would lead to more confusion on his part, and lead him into going off and doing different things. Ultimately, i think it would lead him into deeper confusion.

Oh loki, why can't you just get your priorities strait like mr. titan?? it's pretty clear for him, all he wants is the self satisfaction of killing everything and pleasing death. (however, I do wonder how that will translate on screen, but that is for another thread)

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Old 12-16-2012, 07:32 PM   #648
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

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But he's already considered posh, isn't he? Dragon School, Eton, Cambridge. He's also (or at least appears to be) an extremely kind and approachable person, no matter how he's dressed.

(Sorry for bursting in. This is my first post in five years.)
Hmm...maybe this is why my attraction is starting to cool and I'm going back to my earlier obsession, Orlando Bloom.

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Old 12-16-2012, 07:37 PM   #649
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

I said:
Quote:
I'm not certain it's power per se that he wants. I think he wants the respect or admiration of people around him. To allude to Machiavelli, he probably would like to be both feared and loved, but if he can only have one, he'll take fear (if he's smart and has read Machiavelli ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
that's EXACTLY what I meant when I said that he wants power, but more so in a symbolic way lol. Exactly what I meant, you just said it better
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
I don't think it would "quench his thirst" persay, like you, however, I think it WOULD temporarily hide his thirst. You know what I mean?? Kinda like a pain killer. It would keep his mind off it. But as you said, ultimately someone in power wants more power. Having someone fear you though, Loki could like that. But it may not turn out to be the way he wanted.

However, I think that ULTIMATELY, it would lead to more confusion on his part, and lead him into going off and doing different things. Ultimately, i think it would lead him into deeper confusion.
Pain killer--I can see that. But the power does not address the root cause, so it's ultimately a fruitless pursuit for him. He's in the power business for the wrong reason; as Thor says, he has missed the truth of ruling.

So if obtaining power will not ultimately quench this thirst, what will? It would seem he is pursuing power in order to be feared and, preferably, loved as well by the ruled. And respected by those around him. I suppose getting respect/love in another context might do. As someone pointed out several pages back (Silvermoon, maybe?), Loki has not realized that he is already loved. So maybe it's as simple as recognizing that. Even so, that's still external validation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
Exactly. That is one aspect of Loki, even the MCU CAN'T ignore. A huge part of his motives for a specific story are to cause thor pain, or humiliate thor, or make himself superior. In fact, in the thor: lord of midgard arc, Loki stopped all his mischief, and was completely on Thor's side, and was for Thor's ruling. Because it was exactly what Loki wanted of asgard. The fact that LOKI was supporting what Thor was doing should suggest that Thor indeed got power hungry and ****ed up lol. It took Magni to help daddy realize that
He definitely needs to stop comparing himself to Thor, 'cause he's never going to be Thor.

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yeah, I disagree with me too lol.
Hmmm, you could be your own self-contained message board, then!

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Old 12-16-2012, 07:40 PM   #650
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux

So many many wonderful layers to MCU Loki, so much going on in that head of his. Branding him as just selfish, jealous, power hungry or evil is really not the whole story. Aspects of that, of course but that is not a complete picture of the character at all.

To quote Tom, "every villain is a hero in his own mind" and this is especially true of Loki. Loki believes he knows best, and that is a large part of what drives him in these two films. Is it evil to believe that he can lead the Midgardians into an age of peace just as what his father wanted him to do with the Frost Giants? No, of course that's not evil. not at all. If however one goes about it, in a very misguided "the end justifies the means" kind of way, as Loki does, then that's where the evil acts come in. But that driving force of it is not simply power hungry or hateful or evil on it's own, it's sprung from good intention, and a very relatable intention that I believe most of us would have, but then it is acted on in a misguided, wrong, wrong, wrong, way. Much the same way that Thor at the beginning of Thor 1 acts on his intention of protecting Asgard in a very wrong misguided way.

And of course, Loki is not the only one who believes in "the end justifies the means" in the MCU. We have Nick Fury who takes out Coulson's cards from his locker soaks him in his blood and throws them on the table in order to get the Avengers to act together, and the Council who sent that missile off and potentially kill A LOT of people in order to save the rest of the world. But no one would consider those characters "evil" because of it, I don't think. Note this behavior all falls under a theme of "moral sacrifice" which we believe will be a continued theme in Thor 2.

Now, it is a BIG mistake to think that in Loki's speech to Laufey that Loki let the FG's in simply as "a bit of fun". In that scene he is clearly trying to convince Laufey that he is nothing more than a greedy second son trying to be king, and that he wants him to kill Odin (when he really doesn't) in order to lure Laufey in and take him out, both for his own gain, but for the gain of Asgard and the 9 realms (without that threat around anymore). Loki is an excellent liar, and he is lying there to Laufey. I love how people assume Loki is lying when he says something good but then assume he's telling the truth when he says something bad. It's not that cut and dry. He's being a champion poker player there and not showing his true hand in the game. Why did Loki let the FG's in then, you may ask? The answer is he was being a hero for Asgard in his own mind. He loves Thor, and at that point accepted Thor would be king at some point, but he truly believed that Thor was not ready, no matter what father said. And so for the good of Asgard he creates this distraction, to push the coronation back more, and he'd probably done all he could to drag it out prior to that too, for the same reason.

THOR
(re: the empty hall)
This was to be my day of triumph.

LOKI
It will come. In time.


LOKI
And if I do, then what? I love
Thor more dearly than any of you,
but you know what he is. He's
arrogant. He's reckless. He's
dangerous. You saw how he was
today. Is that what Asgard needs
from its King?

The others exchange glances, torn. Loki has a point.

So again, he's letting the Frost Giants in as a distraction to put off Thor's coronation here, because Thor was clearly not ready for the responsibility. And ironically, unknowingly, he's screwed himself out of his own kingdom in the future with that act. 2 warriors died, it was certainly not a good thing to do, but the intention did not come out of selfishness, jealousy, or evil. It came from wanting what's best for Asgard and believing he knows best. I believe Loki's love of Asgard is a theme in the comics as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Loki: I remember a shadow, living in the shade of your greatness. I remember you tossing me into an abyss. I who was and should be king!
Thor: So you take the world I love as recompense for your imagined slights? No, the earth is under my protection, Loki.
[Loki laughs]
Loki: And you're doing a marvelous job with that. The humans slaughter each other in droves, while you idly threat. I mean to rule them. And why should I not...
Thor: You think yourself above them.
Loki: Well, yes.
Thor: Then you miss the truth of ruling, brother. A throne would suit you ill.
Much the same happens in Avengers actually. Those speeches (and the way he delivers them, very importantly!) where he says "freedom is lie's great lie, and once you accept that you will know peace" and the majority of the speech in Germany, and his chiding of Thor and what a marvelous job he's done with Midgard, citing how they "slaughter each other in droves". He believes he is above them, and he will bring them peace, and he believes he will do a hell of a lot better job than his brother has done. That intent, in itself, is not evil, not whatsoever. Most everyone wants a world in order and a peace. How he goes about it is what is terribly misguided and wrong. Joss also states as much in the DVD commentary of the Germany scene, that it's messed up to want to be that person, to be "daddy" and make everything better. But that is not selfish or evil in itself. again, it is how he goes about it that is seriously messed up.

Another example, using the bifrost to destroy the frost giants, as I've stated there is more than one reason for this, one certainly being wiping off any evidence that he is what he is, so he doesn't have to accept that part of himself, but also, it is a way of stopping a war that is imminent, with 0 bloodshed for the Asgardians. so this is a way of ending that war quickly and stopping the "monsters" from threatening the 9 realms again, thus keeping the peace. He's a hero in his own mind and the end justifies the means in his mind.

Note: at the end of WWII, the US dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Within six days of the second bombing the Japanese surrendered. A LOT of people died, and it seems pretty horribly at that, but WWII was finally over and a further tremendous sacrifice of American lives was avoided. Now, was Harry Truman evil?

Going back to if he wants to be king or what. I think he wants what's best for Asgard, in Thor 1. And he comes to the conclusion that he is what's best, not Thor, and he has to make Father see that any means possible. He wants father's approval and to be the "worthy son". Again, it is not evil in itself to feel this way, but messed up in how he reacts and in the way he goes about trying to get that approval. Then when it all comes crashing in around him, after being so close to having that approval, mother and father's love, his place and purpose in the world, and feeling worthwhile, that is when he snaps and we get that " is it madness?" moment with the tear. Ken actually instructed Tom that he wanted to see something in his brain snap, and it might take him a few takes to get it. (LOL, Ken) But it's basically I think a "how am I the only one who sees, that I am right? Is he calling me mad?" moment... not to mention, partially probably "is it madness for me to want a purpose and place in the world? Is he saying I am so worthless to not deserve that?"

RE: Brother... I believe the times he's throwing out the world "brother" there at Thor in a very bitter painful and/or spiteful way. His heart is broken he is not Thor's brother, not Odin and Frigga's son but a son of a "monster", not truly a son of his beloved Asgard, and his jealousy and anger over everything.

Quote:
Which is it, Loki?? Does he want to be king or doesn't he? And why? If he doesn't like the Midgardians and thinks himself above them, why on earth would he want to spend so much time with them? And is he in the House of Odin or out?

So what's Loki's deal in the MCU? What is he really after? And will he obtain it in Thor2?
I think he is a god of chaos truly now, he has no place in the world. The place in the world he thought had as a brother and a son was a lie. The purpose that Odin had for him is no longer possible. He is in chaos. In the beginning he is "burdened with glorious purpose", and wanting purpose in life is most certainly not evil and something very relatable, but again, the way he goes about it is completely misguided and wrong.

So I guess I feel the thing that would bring him happiness and calm his now chaotic mind is stability and a purpose in life that makes him feel worthwhile. How they can bring him to that point in future films I don't know but should be interesting.

note: Loki's comics and myth, wife Sigyn, aka "victorious woman" she is the goddess of Fidelity, but also the Goddess of Constancy. If he is Chaos, she is stability and constancy, the quality of being enduring and unchanging. An "odd couple" indeed. But from a fairytale/myth storytelling point of view, it is a very interesting combination. It is too bad so much is missing of their life together in the myths as I feel certain she was meant to be a pretty amazing female symbol. I just hope that if they do bring her in at some point in the mcu, that they do more with her to bring him much needed "constancy" than to have her being an abused and neglected wife or blind Loki fangirl as she sort of seemed to be in the comics. (not always. She has her moments. but she should have been handled a hell of a lot better from the panels I've seen, that is for certain). I'm not holding my breath for her to show up, but just saying. It would be an interesting development.

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