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Old 01-16-2013, 10:49 AM   #876
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You have to be careful about linking to TVTropes. People get lost in there. And some are never heard from again...
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:06 PM   #877
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

Okay......Colson really was dead......

But what was the last thing he did before dying?? Anyone remember?? He discharged an experimental weapon made from The Asgardian Destroyer.

No one knows fully what Asgardian energy can do to a human being if exposed to it's radiation at close range......

So yes.....Let's say Colson died (so it won't seem cheap if it's a LMD) Fury also believes him to be dead. They take his body down to the morgue.

The battle for New York begins (in the Avengers Movie).......while that is going on. Fury gets a call from the morgue that a strange glow is seen on Colson's stab wound....and there was hand movement.


Fury bolts down to the lab where they have just moved the body.....vital signs are getting stronger. No one knows why.....But there is no time to figure it out because NY is under full attack and Fury has to get back to it!

His orders to the lab techs is to keep this under wraps. He still wants to use this to push the Avengers and does not want that edge lost.

So he still plays the "dead Colson" card. Meanwhile they deduce the radiation in his chest is the same radiation from the weapon......mystical Asgardian energy.....

Fury sees big possibilities with a new energy source....

Well???

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Old 01-18-2013, 04:12 PM   #878
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

It's kind of convoluted and silly.

I think Coulson just having survived the stab wound, saved by the doctors in time, with his death fakes by Fury is simple and effective.

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Old 01-18-2013, 04:26 PM   #879
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

Well Elektra seemingly died in the DD movie, but it was explained at the beginning of her spin off that she was revived by the Hand ninja. She might've been dead for a few minutes, but she was brought back to life. People didn't seem to have a hard time accepting that, although that could be because a lot of people didn't see the movie anyway lol.

But the point is that Elektra didn't need such a massive explanation or use of any doubles or other type of technology to revive her. I don't think the Hand bringing her back to life even involved any kind of mysticism. It was purely medical if I recall correctly.

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Old 01-18-2013, 04:29 PM   #880
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It's kind of convoluted and silly.

I think Coulson just having survived the stab wound, saved by the doctors in time, with his death fakes by Fury is simple and effective.
He died on the spot. Go watch the movie again. I can see if a med team was already there and had him on a stretcher giving him CPR. But they were not....

And my idea is Silly?? Really?? Plus this is a universe where a guy pops a power core in and out of his chest to keep his heart beating?

It's comic book stuff.....all of it.

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Old 01-18-2013, 05:05 PM   #881
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He died on the spot.
No, he lost consciousness on the spot as the medical team was arriving. Then Fury told other people he died after the camera cut away. There's wiggle room there.

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And my idea is Silly?? Really??
Oh yes, absolutely.

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Plus this is a universe where a guy pops a power core in and out of his chest to keep his heart beating?

It's comic book stuff.....all of it.
You can't use "this is comic book stuff" as an excuse to pull anything out of your ass that you want. That's incredibly lazy writing, insulting to the audience, and worse than both of those combined it comes off as ridiculous and impossible to take seriously.

"Radiation from gun raising the dead" is extremely, needlessly, and detrimentally silly.

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Old 01-18-2013, 05:33 PM   #882
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

Even if he died on the spot it seemed like the medics arrived within the 5-6 minutes that the human brain can go with out oxygen so reviving him should be possible.

Heck, it would even be a funny line sometime down the road if one of the Avengers is giving Fury and Coulson a hard time about being told that Coulson died if he went "Well, I was actually dead for three minutes".

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:40 PM   #883
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

Make it a LMD and be done with it...........


Makes more sense to me anyway......plus its a great way to introduce people to this element of the Marvel Universe.

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:43 PM   #884
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

Yes. The robot uprising is glorious in any medium.

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Old 01-19-2013, 08:21 AM   #885
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Make it a LMD and be done with it...........


Makes more sense to me anyway......plus its a great way to introduce people to this element of the Marvel Universe.
I disagree. What this involves is going back into The Avengers and changing the events that happen - or at the very least, the audience's perception of what really happened. Which, whether intentional or not, winds up feeling like the franchise going, "Haha! You felt bad for the guy dying when he wasn't even in harm's way? What an idiot.".

Almost invariably, it would make the audience feel that they had been tricked and manipulated by the movie. And by and large, an audience doesn't like being made fools of; barring specific genres such as mysteries and con/heist films where getting misdirected is the appeal. However, it's safe to say that The Avengers isn't - and wasn't marketed as being - in that genre.


Also, bear in mind that for the average movie-going audience like Cletus and Ann-Marie, they don't know what a Life Model Decoy is. As such, that throwaway line Stark made at the start of the movie would have no significance to them whatsoever and the whole robot clone thing would just feel like it came out of left field. Worse, it sets the tone that it isn't just good enough to watch every single movie set in the MCU, one must also read the comics from which it was based on even - even though it is not in continuity with the movie franchise - in order to catch and understand elements integral to the plot and development. Which is just flat out BAD practice.


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Old 01-19-2013, 08:32 AM   #886
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

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I disagree. What this involves is going back into The Avengers and changing the events that happen - or at the very least, the audience's perception of what really happened. Which, whether intentional or not, winds up feeling like the franchise going, "Haha! You felt bad for the guy dying when he wasn't even in harm's way? What an idiot.".

Almost invariably, it would make the audience feel that they had been tricked and manipulated by the movie. And by and large, an audience doesn't like being made fools of; barring specific genres such as mysteries and con/heist films where getting misdirected is the appeal. However, it's safe to say that The Avengers isn't - and wasn't marketed as being - in that genre.


Also, bear in mind that for the average movie-going audience like Cletus and Ann-Marie, they don't know what a Life Model Decoy is. As such, that throwaway line Stark made at the start of the movie would have no significance to them whatsoever and the whole robot clone thing would just feel like it came out of left field. Worse, it sets the tone that it isn't just good enough to watch every single movie set in the MCU, one must also read the comics from which it was based on even - even though it is not in continuity with the movie franchise - in order to catch and understand elements integral to the plot and development. Which is just flat out BAD practice.
I agree. And I would say just make it that Coulson was medically revived and be done with it. Audiences are far more likely to accept that (and in fact do so all the time) since it happens all the time in film and TV in non-sci-fi/fantasy dramas where someone dies for a few minutes but then their heart is restarted etc. Happens in real life too. That's the least obtrusive solution.

In Burn Notice just a few weeks ago, for example, they even killed off their supplier (played by Patton Oswalt) by injecting him with a drug that paralysed him and starved him of oxygen for a few minutes so that he could escape custody, and then brought him back to life in the ambulance.

Coulson's character development and arc in the early part of the series can be the fact that he died (even for a few minutes) but came back to life and has to deal with his own mortality. I don't want him dealing with being an android, LMD or whatever.

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Old 01-19-2013, 08:34 AM   #887
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

Actually, while we're on the subject of Coulson's revival, do we know for certain that it is SHIELD that revives him? Think about it... why would SHIELD specifically want Coulson alive for anyway? Yes, he was a good agent but there are many other good agents as well in an organisation as large as SHIELD. Their enemies, on the other hand, would have a motivation. It would be certainly in their advantage if they could revive Coulson, if only to find out everything he knows about SHIELD's operations and secrets. Maybe even brainwash him into becoming one of their operatives?

Imagine how good a hook that would be for the opening story arc. A killed-off fan favourite agent turns up alive in his own TV show? Yeah, that's interesting. A killed-off fan favourite agent turns up unexpectedly as a bad guy in said new TV show? Now, that would get a lot of buzz and people tuning in.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:29 AM   #888
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

They would want to revive him because he was an injured person on a ship with medical facilities. Why wouldn't they try to revive him under those circumstances?

Are you suggesting that HYDRA or somebody sneak into the Hellicarrier long after Coulson died to literally resurrect him? Because that's not what we've been suggesting when we've been saying to just have SHIELD have medically revived him. We're suggesting that they would have simply managed to stabilize his condition and repair the damage to his torso in the Hellicarrier's medical facilities off screen. There's no reason they wouldn't attempt to do that.

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Old 01-19-2013, 10:45 AM   #889
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

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No, he lost consciousness on the spot as the medical team was arriving. Then Fury told other people he died after the camera cut away. There's wiggle room there.

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Old 01-19-2013, 11:10 AM   #890
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Default Re: Joss Whedon developing Marvel SHIELD series for ABC

I hope there is a flashback to that scene in the Avengers, or even an expanded version where we even manage to get Samuel L Jackson to cameo.

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Old 01-19-2013, 11:20 AM   #891
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They would want to revive him because he was an injured person on a ship with medical facilities. Why wouldn't they try to revive him under those circumstances?

Are you suggesting that HYDRA or somebody sneak into the Hellicarrier long after Coulson died to literally resurrect him? Because that's not what we've been suggesting when we've been saying to just have SHIELD have medically revived him. We're suggesting that they would have simply managed to stabilize his condition and repair the damage to his torso in the Hellicarrier's medical facilities off screen. There's no reason they wouldn't attempt to do that.
From the movie, Coulson is reported dead after sustaining serious injuries following a fight with Loki. We even see him succumb to his wounds. Those are the facts of the matter.

What you're speculating is that the reports of his death were greatly exaggerated. Which is certainly possible but not a definite fact.

What I was speculating in the post above yours was that if Coulson really did die as reported, would he not be an easy target for those seeking to find out SHIELD's secrets once he's been laid in the ground? Assuming, of course, said organisation has the necessary phlebotinum to resurrect him. Which, incidentally, would also introduce the super-science of the MCU to new viewers (and not out of place for old viewers as the 'good guys'/POV characters learn about it the same time as they do) alongside solve the Coulson issue.

In other words, the two of us are talking about different things. Two different approaches/solutions to the same problem; which is how to bring Coulson back in an interesting but not continuity-breaking manner.


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Old 01-19-2013, 11:37 AM   #892
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Okay.

Yeah, I'm not really down with that. Bring in technology to raise the dead out of left field without any kind of foreshadowing would be really hard to swallow. Especially if it's just used as a plot device.

You can't put any sic-fi concept under the umbrella term of "super science" and say that once any kind of super science has been introduced anything goes, because some things are a lot less believable than others. Fact is, machines that raise the dead are much harder to believe than portals to the other side of the universe that let through armies of aliens. The later is pretty abstract to us, most people don't have the understanding of physics to know exactly why that's silly, so they let it slide. But almost everyone is aware of the finality of death. Undoing that in a narrative requires a lot more for people to but into it.

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Old 01-19-2013, 02:08 PM   #893
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I think it's a fantastic way to start the show. A man who should be dead is spotted very much alive and well in a suspected enemy organisation; cue SHIELD's involvement to investigate. Or better yet (because it's more dramatic), SHIELD infiltrate a suspected enemy organisation only to discover at the end of the episode that it is being headed up by a man - and former colleague - who should be very much dead and whose funeral they had attended; driving the opening story arc that runs for the first seven episodes.


Having such a reveal would very quickly set the tone for the series; placing it in no uncertain terms a sci-fi (i.e. not CSI, The Wire, etc) type genre.

As for a lack of foreshadowing, you will always have a lack of foreshadowing whenever introducing something new into an established setting. Was there foreshadowing when they introduced the super serum for Captain America? Was there foreshadowing that gamma radiation would turn Bruce Banner into The Hulk until it actually happened? There is nothing wrong with suddenly introducing something new 'out of left field'. In fact, it's very useful to create dramatic tension. What's important is that it should mesh well with the setting and that it isn't applied to retcon things that occurred prior to its introduction (as then, it comes off looking like a cheap trick from the writer to retcon something).

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Old 01-19-2013, 03:42 PM   #894
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Was there foreshadowing when they introduced the super serum for Captain America?
It was alluded to in TIH, so yeah.

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Old 01-19-2013, 05:47 PM   #895
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From the movie, Coulson is reported dead after sustaining serious injuries following a fight with Loki. We even see him succumb to his wounds. Those are the facts of the matter.

What you're speculating is that the reports of his death were greatly exaggerated. Which is certainly possible but not a definite fact.

What I was speculating in the post above yours was that if Coulson really did die as reported, would he not be an easy target for those seeking to find out SHIELD's secrets once he's been laid in the ground? Assuming, of course, said organisation has the necessary phlebotinum to resurrect him. Which, incidentally, would also introduce the super-science of the MCU to new viewers (and not out of place for old viewers as the 'good guys'/POV characters learn about it the same time as they do) alongside solve the Coulson issue.

In other words, the two of us are talking about different things. Two different approaches/solutions to the same problem; which is how to bring Coulson back in an interesting but not continuity-breaking manner.
Super Science but not Asgardian energy?? Didnt they just encounter The Teseract??? That was from Asgard!

Thor said it himself...."What you call magic, we call science"....

So the radiation from the Destroyer is not so "convoluted".....

Just make it an LMD......Fury and Coulson played this to the hilt.

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Old 01-20-2013, 03:26 AM   #896
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Super Science but not Asgardian energy?? Didnt they just encounter The Teseract??? That was from Asgard!

Thor said it himself...."What you call magic, we call science"....

So the radiation from the Destroyer is not so "convoluted".....

Just make it an LMD......Fury and Coulson played this to the hilt.
Bear in mind that it will be assumed that a decent chunk of the audience would not have seen - or at least be coming in naive to - The Avengers and the worldbuilding that has taken place in up until now.

The show's challenge would have to be aside from still providing interesting stories for the old audience, get the new audience in the right mindset for the setting while also give them good stories as well. The new audience won't know who Coulson is and his return won't hold special significance to them. They won't care that he's back unless the show builds it up and makes it meaningful within the show's own story as well.

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Old 01-20-2013, 09:59 PM   #897
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Bear in mind that it will be assumed that a decent chunk of the audience would not have seen - or at least be coming in naive to - The Avengers and the worldbuilding that has taken place in up until now.

The show's challenge would have to be aside from still providing interesting stories for the old audience, get the new audience in the right mindset for the setting while also give them good stories as well. The new audience won't know who Coulson is and his return won't hold special significance to them. They won't care that he's back unless the show builds it up and makes it meaningful within the show's own story as well.
Why would you assume that?

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Old 01-20-2013, 10:20 PM   #898
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"Energy from the destroyer gun raises the dead" is an enormous leap. Audiences won't buy it. I don't buy it. It's needlessly silly.

I don't see why people need some kind of supernatural explanation. Just say the medics managed to save him and fury lied about his death. It's not hard, people.

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Old 01-21-2013, 03:17 AM   #899
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Why would you assume that?
Because not everyone goes to the cinema/watches movies and more importantly, not everyone who watched are going to remember it in detail years later.

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Old 01-21-2013, 04:21 AM   #900
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Why would you assume that?
It's how anything should be/is made in industry. Everything has to be standalone and should be a self contained story, if not you instantly lose or isolate a large chunk of the audience.

Obviously a lot of people went to see the Avengers, but not everyone. It's unlikely but what if everyone who watches ABC regularly didn't see the Avengers? They'd be instantly isolated from the show if it heavily relies upon the movie. That's why you always hear producers and directors talk about things being standalone or 'creating a new universe'.

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