What if Two-Face was the Main Villain in Dark Knight Rises?

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by CapedCrusader14

I prefer Two-Face being a fallen hero personally.

Yeah, the Nolanverse Harvey had a grudge that only went so far, and it culminated with Gordon and his family.

[Anno_Domini]

And let's say he would be the villain...what would be Dent's motivation? His motivation was perfectly cleared in TDK, but for the sequel? What would his motivation be with being the main villain?

[Mr. Dent]

Movie would be too pretentious. First we'd have a miraculous "back from the dead story", or worse, a Two-Face in a wheel chair terrorizing Gotham somehow...

[Anno_Domini]

No, Two-Face wouldn't have even been in TDK if he was the villain in the threequel. We're mostly talking about if they stuck with the original idea by Goyer/Nolan where Dent became Two-Face in the threequel.

[herolee10]

Plus..if we're bound by realistic terms, someone like Two-Face wouldn't live for a very long period if he kept on refusing to take medication to deal with his facial injuries.

[hafizbat]

Originally Posted by herolee10

Plus..if we're bound by realistic terms, someone like Two-Face wouldn't live for a very long period if he kept on refusing to take medication to deal with his facial injuries.

If we were bound by realistic terms, Bruce would never be able to walk again after Bane broke his back....let alone be the Batman.

[Shpati]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

No, Two-Face wouldn't have even been in TDK if he was the villain in the threequel. We're mostly talking about if they stuck with the original idea by Goyer/Nolan where Dent became Two-Face in the threequel.

Exactly

[8wid]

I don't see how much Two Face would have contributed to a story to end the trilogy. Say Harvey Dent wasn't scarred in TDK, but TDKR and Joker is still captured. Harvey Dent personally takes over the case as a trial lawyer and then gets scarred in the court room. He then goes on a killing rampage to take out the corrupt cops, mofia, general violent criminals in the ultimate attempt to hunt down the Joker in the end and give him true justice. There is none of the dog chasing cars logic he tells him in the hospital at all. I would think he would even want to take down Gordon and find out who the Batman is as well to gain true justice. Joker would probably commit murders just to antagonize Dent and Batman so they hunt him down and create as much chaos as possible.

The plot we got was probably much more interesting though.

[Ravage]

He had a chance. He was the main villain in Long Halloween storyline, its counted as one of the best Batman stories ever written and it a was goddamn long story. His theme also had similarities but changed a lot towards the end of TDK. He wasnt like a fallen hero but more like an anti-Gordon trying to exact his revenge. If he acted in LH style, TDKR would've had a more dedective work with a smalltime villain framing Dent in Hangman style, which in this case Riddler can fit the best.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by hafizbat

If we were bound by realistic terms, Bruce would never be able to walk again after Bane broke his back....let alone be the Batman.

Bruce being able to heal his back during a 5 month period is more believable to me than a guy with the scar issues that Harvey had being able to properly function after a long period of time without ANY medical treatment to his face.

[hafizbat]

Originally Posted by herolee10

Bruce being able to heal his back during a 5 month period is more believable to me than a guy with the scar issues that Harvey had being able to properly function after a long period of time without ANY medical treatment to his face.

It's all relative as to what is "more believable" in your eyes or in others, but the point is that if they wanted Two-Face in the third movie, he would be. He wasn't in TDKR because the Nolans finished his character arc, not because his scars were unrealistic. I never understand the whole "believability" argument when you're dealing with a man who dresses up as a bat to fight a clown.

[ComicStalker]

Originally Posted by hafizbat

If we were bound by realistic terms, Bruce would never be able to walk again after Bane broke his back....let alone be the Batman.

Originally Posted by herolee10

Bruce being able to heal his back during a 5 month period is more believable to me than a guy with the scar issues that Harvey had being able to properly function after a long period of time without ANY medical treatment to his face.

No they are about the same. Remember Bruces' back didnt just magically heal in 5 months. He was somehow able to get back into "Batman" shape. Which should be a little better than normal shape. And he did this in a hole in the ground.
Both are equally un believable...

[Devil-In]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

And let's say he would be the villain...what would be Dent's motivation? His motivation was perfectly cleared in TDK, but for the sequel? What would his motivation be with being the main villain?

Twisted, duality-bent theme on cleaning the streets of "his city", and taking over the Maroni crime family to do it.

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

As much as it would be interesting, I like Nolan's take of Two-Face that was never really a "true" villain; just someone that got caught up in the grey area. Being a villain for the TDK sequel would have obviously mean Nolan's Dent would have become a "true" villain.

Not a true villain???

He was about to shoot innocent kids and Gordon out of some sort of stupid logic that was just insane. He was just as nuts as the Joker, Harvey Dent was a true psychopath. Probably even before all the bad things happened to him.

No hero at all and definitely not "the best of them".

[Devil-In]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Not a true villain???

He was about to shoot innocent kids and Gordon out of some sort of stupid logic that was just insane. He was just as nuts as the Joker, Harvey Dent was a true psychopath. Probably even before all the bad things happened to him.

No hero at all and definitely not "the best of them".

Not to mention the great Batman bad guys fall into that gray area of "not completely evil"

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

And let's say he would be the villain...what would be Dent's motivation? His motivation was perfectly cleared in TDK, but for the sequel? What would his motivation be with being the main villain?

Well it's why i've always liked TLH and DV as the definitive Harvey Dent/Two-Face story. Two-Face's motivation in TLH, in which Dent only becomes scarred 2/3 through the story, is to get revenge on those immediately responsible (Falcone, Maroni and the ADA who gave Maroni the acid), after which he freely turns himself into Jim Gordon. TDK was this tragic but simple motivation, save they made Harvey also blame Gordon....which led to bad results.

In DV, he goal broadens to using the "freaks" (himself, Joker, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, etc.) to wipe out the rest of the mob. If Dent had lived his plan would have been something like that but bigger, destroy all of Gotham's violence and criminals with extreme violence. A corrupt version of Batman.

I never liked how Dent becomes what he hates....a run-of-the-mill gangster. Nolan would not go there in a film.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Not a true villain???

He was about to shoot innocent kids and Gordon out of some sort of stupid logic that was just insane. He was just as nuts as the Joker, Harvey Dent was a true psychopath. Probably even before all the bad things happened to him.

No hero at all and definitely not "the best of them".

While Dent had a dark side and clearly wasn't as strong as Bruce, he did genuinely want to clean up the city. He was inspired by the Batman and believed in him when most found it inconvenient to not. He did manage to clean up most money laundering in the city and even put his life on the line by taking the fall for Batman, believing the Bat and the cops would save him.

I would not just write him off as a pure villain like the Joker. In that movie, he is more like a tragic hero who loses everything.

[Two-Face]

Originally Posted by CapedCrusader14

I prefer Two-Face being a fallen hero personally.

Yes Nolanverse is perfect really. Harvey's speech about "You either die a hero or you live long enough see yourself become the villain." Harvey is that hero a White Knight.

[hafizbat]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Well it's why i've always liked TLH and DV as the definitive Harvey Dent/Two-Face story. Two-Face's motivation in TLH, in which Dent only becomes scarred 2/3 through the story, is to get revenge on those immediately responsible (Falcone, Maroni and the ADA who gave Maroni the acid), after which he freely turns himself into Jim Gordon. TDK was this tragic but simple motivation, save they made Harvey also blame Gordon....which led to bad results.

In DV, he goal broadens to using the "freaks" (himself, Joker, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, etc.) to wipe out the rest of the mob. If Dent had lived his plan would have been something like that but bigger, destroy all of Gotham's violence and criminals with extreme violence. A corrupt version of Batman.

I never liked how Dent becomes what he hates....a run-of-the-mill gangster. Nolan would not go there in a film.

Great post. You understand Harvey Two-Face. And I would have loved to have seen Eckhart's Two-Face fleshed out to become the DV type villain he becomes. It would've been fantastic and tragic, as they nailed the good Harvey Dent and his fall so well. All they had to do was keep developing him and Nolans Two-Face would've been an all time great villain.

[The Guard]

I see THE LONG HALLOWEEN and DARK VICTORY for what they are...Harvey Dent's early days. In a "grounded" universe, its fine to end his arc where Nolan did...but in the comics, his character arch goes well beyond that. And really, there was a way to suggest an ongoing threat from Dent in the movieverse, they just chose to kill him off and go the "I'll take the blame" route.

I never liked how Dent becomes what he hates....a run-of-the-mill gangster. Nolan would not go there in a film.

I would never describe what Dent becomes in the comics as "run of the mill". He becomes an outright supervillain, with a huge obsession with the number two, duality, justice/revenge, etc.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Devil-In

Twisted, duality-bent theme on cleaning the streets of "his city", and taking over the Maroni crime family to do it.

I believe there would have to be some added element that makes Dent go insane to the point where he calls Gotham "his city", imo. Something that makes him so close to cleaning the streets before he becomes scarred? But wouldn't that mean Harvey Dent would have to have some kind of ego?

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Not a true villain???

He was about to shoot innocent kids and Gordon out of some sort of stupid logic that was just insane. He was just as nuts as the Joker, Harvey Dent was a true psychopath. Probably even before all the bad things happened to him.

No hero at all and definitely not "the best of them".

When I say not a true villain, I am referring to him not having an ideal towards Gotham City as Ra's al Ghul or Joker, not having any followers, just Dent on a one-man mission on why Rachel had to die by targeting the people who took himself and Rachel while then taking it out on the other two people that were "involved" in some way, Batman and Gordon.

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Well it's why i've always liked TLH and DV as the definitive Harvey Dent/Two-Face story. Two-Face's motivation in TLH, in which Dent only becomes scarred 2/3 through the story, is to get revenge on those immediately responsible (Falcone, Maroni and the ADA who gave Maroni the acid), after which he freely turns himself into Jim Gordon. TDK was this tragic but simple motivation, save they made Harvey also blame Gordon....which led to bad results.

In DV, he goal broadens to using the "freaks" (himself, Joker, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, etc.) to wipe out the rest of the mob. If Dent had lived his plan would have been something like that but bigger, destroy all of Gotham's violence and criminals with extreme violence. A corrupt version of Batman.

I never liked how Dent becomes what he hates....a run-of-the-mill gangster. Nolan would not go there in a film.

I mostly cared about The Long Halloween really. Never cared much for Dark Victory as a whole. But I wouldn't say that to Bale since DV is his favorite Batman graphic novel

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by The Guard

I see THE LONG HALLOWEEN and DARK VICTORY for what they are...Harvey Dent's early days. In a "grounded" universe, its fine to end his arc where Nolan did...but in the comics, his character arch goes well beyond that. And really, there was a way to suggest an ongoing threat from Dent in the movieverse, they just chose to kill him off and go the "I'll take the blame" route.



I would never describe what Dent becomes in the comics as "run of the mill". He becomes an outright supervillain, with a huge obsession with the number two, duality, justice/revenge, etc.

Dent as a tragic villain of a good man who was so screwed over by fate, life, whatever lashes out in a mad, vengeful way is more interesting than the DA obsessed with taking down the mob becoming a mobster who has a fetish for the number 2. It is why Loeb chose to "kill" Harvey (at least for the story's tone) in DV, because it really would work better if he really died there. When Loeb wrote the regular title in Hush, he cured Dent just to go somewhere else with his favorite villain. Harvey Dent the gangster doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the character's background and diminishes his tragic/sympathetic quality with each return.

Two-Face is a great character, but his story is best left one as tragedy, in my opinion.

[The Guard]

What he becomes IS a tragedy. That's the whole point. That this man who crusaded for good in Gotham because a horrible destructive entity for it. That this shining example becomes one of their darkest enemies.

[Devil-In]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I believe there would have to be some added element that makes Dent go insane to the point where he calls Gotham "his city", imo. Something that makes him so close to cleaning the streets before he becomes scarred? But wouldn't that mean Harvey Dent would have to have some kind of ego?

Firstly, unless I am misunderstanding you, he was very close to his goal in TDK, and looses his mind on the death of Rachel. Secondly, Harvey doesn't need to be the one with ego problems here, Two-Face can fully take over. Here's how I would've done it.

Throughout TDKR we are given subtle hints and clues Harvey survived the fall and was locked away by Gordon to protect the lie he and Batman perpetuate. Bane, continuing his "no true despair without hope" theme, lets Harvey out first, where he learns of the lie based around him. Bane shuts Gotham off from the rest of world, intending to crush Dent, the Dent Act, The Batman, and Gotham in one fell swoop. Harvey's mind collapses in on itself. He realizes it's his fault "his city" has fallen, he along with it, and the he isn't the hero Gotham needs or deserves anymore. Dent is dead, and Two-Face resurfaces. With Gotham a "No Man's Land" Two-Face seizes control of the Mob and uses it to "bring peace" to his city.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by The Guard

What he becomes IS a tragedy. That's the whole point. That this man who crusaded for good in Gotham because a horrible destructive entity for it. That this shining example becomes one of their darkest enemies.

And that's all there in TLH, DV and TDK for that matter. Just the logic of Dent going from the scourge of the mafia to a mafioso who likes all things in 2s is a huge leap. It works in the Silver Age comics, but as Harvey was rewritten as a real human in YO, TLH, and DV, it became less believable. He is out for revenge and justice not to knock over banks because they happen to be the Second National Bank on February 2 or some such.

It's like if MacBeth survived MacDuff's return and became a warlord with a faction of men in the Scottish highlands who he'd periodically lead to attack Malcolm's kingdom because he lost the throne. It really does work better if the ambitious Scottish king is no more after he has hit rock bottom and his story is over.