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Old 11-23-2012, 05:24 PM   #726
charl_huntress
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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Originally Posted by Dread View Post
I probably liked Starfire and Raven more than Cyborg. Couldn't stand Beast Boy.
Hahah....They were good too. I just think Cyborg stands out more in my mind.

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Eventually DC animation has to try to create a memorable franchise without attaching to SuperBat. To a degree "GL:TAS" and even the live action "ARROW" are steps in this direction.
I agree. I feel like DC animation is afraid to take on other Superheroes because they are not as popular. It's like they are unwilling to make the monetary investment in a character with no proven worth. It's shame they are not willing to take the risk. I'd love to see Mr. Terrific, Huntress, Nightwing make a debut sans SupesBats. Hell, I think Mr. Miracle and his exploits could make a good show.

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I know. Usually Superman is at his best when someone is challenging that simply viewpoint, or he's coming close to crossing a line. I actually liked "SUPERMAN VS. THE ELITE" and the comic it was based on. But he can be a difficult character to get a handle on because he is that archetype and you can't mess with it much. Really the only major difference is he isn't as much of a flag-waver as he used to be in the olden days.
I agree he isn't as much as a flag-waver as he used to be, but disagree that he is that difficult to write. He can be incredibily easy for people who get him. Unfortunately, what I see is people feel he needs to be made more edgy and more this and more that. If they focused on enhancing instead of changing then it would be a different story. That's just me though.

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My problem was that Superboy admitted what he was, and didn't come to Superman's attention as an enemy. If anything he WANTED guidance from him. And instead Superman turned his back on him, which is exactly the sort of thing which could breed resentment in a clone. Lex Luthor attempted to capitalize on that. Clone or not, I don't easily accept Superman dismissing a teenager who needed him. That's not saying he should have been "Super-Dad", but seeing a more honest attempt would have been nice. Instead, at least in "YJ", that was left to the time skip. Ma Kent would have told Clark to look past the circumstances and just help the kid out. I can't help but think - especially after "SUPERMAN/BATMAN: APOCALYPSE" - that had Conner and the kids lied and claimed he was from Krypton, Superman would have given him the key to the Fortress Of Solitude within an hour. Superman is an icon, which means he usually is what most people aspire to. It's like seeing Captain America of all people give up and run from a battle just because a villain broke his shield, and...oh, wait, that was FEAR ITSELF.

I didn't have a problem with it making Clark uncomfortable; I had a problem with Clark literally FLEEING from the problem and refusing to deal with it. He left it to Batman, of all people (a man who thinks nothing of throwing a 9 year old dressed in bright colors at gun toting gangsters). But again that's the problem with archetypes to a degree. You can't deviate from expectations much. You can only go so far with Superman before he isn't Superman anymore; sort of like some of the wonky decisions the "New 52" has done for him.

It is a moot point in "YJ" as during the time skip the two got chummy.
We'll agree to disagree because I think a lot of uncomfortableness is the reason why he runs from the the issue. It's normal. However, the only thing I see missing is what Bats did in YJ, which is confront him on the issue. Of course, others in the comics have confronted him on this, but it usually involves you are the only one who can deal with him instead of confronting the issue that it's a kid who needs guidance...regardless that he's a clone.

I see your point, but I guess I understand why Superman doesn't want to deal with it. IMO, it's the approach to how he is confronted to deal with the issue that always lacks. It usually goes....Con-El is a clone of you and we understand why you don't like it, but you need to deal with it." From that stand point, I have always understood why Superman was like "eat a 4-9-3-11."

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:48 PM   #727
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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I never denied that, simply was stating that "PERFORMANCE" was a different situation than is happening now. In fairness to Grayson, it isn't as if Wally is doing much towards the situation anyway. Frankly, all Wally is doing is Monday morning quarterbacking (or being an armchair superhero). He objects, perhaps rightly, to Grayson's decisions, but offers no alternative or assistance on his end. That isn't Grayson's fault. He never convinced Wally to retire, nor would I imagine he'd object too much if Wally wanted to rejoin the team.
Dick might not have convinced them to retire, but he certainly dragged them back into this life knowing they chose to leave it behind. The Light and all the other evil in the world was still out there when they walked away after all. And how is Wally suppose to offer an alternative when the plan was already so far along before he was even aware of it? Dick and Kaldur were already in too deep and I'm sure Dick made it seem like they had a clear plan when he went to Artemis (and Wally). So I can see why Wally's so freaked out considering the plan relies on Dick knowing what he's doing and it was pretty clear with the events of "Darkest" that he doesn't have as much control over things as he (possibly) led on. Like you said, he did tell Wally that the hardest part was over.

And I do think there's a chance Dick would object to Wally returning to the team now. He probably knows that Wally wouldn't be as willing to stand by and let some things happen for the sake of the mission (or take some steps as the case may be) and if Wally ever came upon Artemis in trouble, there's little doubt in what he'd do. I could buy him thinking that Wally would screw things up. So I wouldn't be surprised if Dick talked Artemis into convincing Wally to stay out of it -- which she'd agee to since she'd want to protect him and it gives her one less thing to worry about.

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It will be a bit hypocritical for M'Gann to object to bending the rules for an end considering she has long made a habit of abusing her psychic powers to make enemies catatonic as well as manipulate her boyfriend. I mean, who is to say that practice stopped with Conner? Maybe Lagoon Boy is her love slave for a reason. Conner I can imagine would have more legitimate moral outrage; as I said, I could imagine him taking Wally's side in the whole debate.
I never said that M'gann would object, just that she's aware of what's going on now. Conner will probably find out soon and he might object a bit, but I assume he'll keep it in house. The key is when the heroes outside the main six find out. I can't believe the core six's story would end with them getting completely shunned by everyone else around them.

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In a way it is good that Wally only seems to care about Artemis during this ordeal; at the end she may be the only friend he has left. If the show wants to reunite "Meganboy", this ordeal could do it.
Wally doesn't just care about Artemis, though. He showed obvious concern for Dick, Conner, and the three kids that got taken in his scene in "Darkest". Artemis is definitely the one he's worried about the most, but she's hardly the only one he's worried about.

The irony is that he claimed he hasn't "ditched his friends" in "Salvage" and he's pretty much doing that right now.

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Thanks for the link. Well that seals it. So Wally isn't getting any type of speed boost? I still don't think they will kill him though.

Quesiton: You mentioned that Bart learned the whirlwind from his father and that he learned it from someone. Could it be possible that in the alternate universe/future that Bart came from where Barry is dead that Bart's dad learned it from an even faster Wally?
I don't see why or how he'd get a speed boost. Weisman's answer pretty much confirms he's about as fast as he's going to get and outside of Superboy's short stint with the shields, none of the others have had an outside boost to their powers.

As for your question, Wally might have been the one that taught Bart's dad, but I don't see why he'd be any faster in that time. The funny thing is, Wally could very well be the Flash right now if Bart didn't screw with the timeline. Hopefully Wally isn't the one that pays the price for Bart's actions.

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Old 11-23-2012, 11:34 PM   #728
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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I never denied that, simply was stating that "PERFORMANCE" was a different situation than is happening now. In fairness to Grayson, it isn't as if Wally is doing much towards the situation anyway. Frankly, all Wally is doing is Monday morning quarterbacking (or being an armchair superhero). He objects, perhaps rightly, to Grayson's decisions, but offers no alternative or assistance on his end. That isn't Grayson's fault. He never convinced Wally to retire, nor would I imagine he'd object too much if Wally wanted to rejoin the team. I do wonder if part of the reason that Wally doesn't is that he no longer trusts Nightwing to be frank with everything on a mission, and he wouldn't want to merely become another pawn like Bart and the others are. Is it "cowardly" to not want to suit up for a leader whose judgement you no longer trust, who might be perfectly willing to lead or leave you in a trap if it furthers along a morally ambiguous goal? Of course, again, Wally has done nothing so far but object. That may make for some meaty dialogue scenes, but it doesn't resolve the problem.
How do we know Dick tried convincing Wally to sit out, due to feeling him being emotionally involved would cloud his judgment?

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The difference is Artemis is actually a vital and important character in the show, who always has her own subplots regardless of who she is dating. Thus, I actually expect her conflicts to be resolved or focused on and so on. I don't with Wally.
Since when does quantity dictate whether someone is a vital and/or important character? Also regardless of who was involved with who, how did that stop Wally's arc(s) in season 1 from being resolved?

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Indeed. It is as I said, it won't be terribly dramatic and it supports the angle of Wally being a support character.
Are you still going on about that despite Greg Weisman stating that the six main characters are the ones they are focused the most on?

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I am sure he'll suit up at least once more within the next 10 episodes. However, I have no expectation that he'll accomplish anything noteworthy, memorable, or vital to the plot beyond another kiss scene with Artemis before the season finale and the use of the word "babe". He'll just be another costumed body in an epic fight scene like Batgirl is.
I think you still put too much stock into that line of thought. Most of us can agree that Wally will eventually take up the Flash mantle, but first something has to happen to Barry (and perhaps Bart as well). Stuff like that and worrying about Artemis, will all tie into his arc, being a hero again.

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Impulse is the speedster who matters to the plot this season, and I think "BLOODLINES" and especially "BEFORE THE DAWN" made that abundantly clear.
Again much like Aqualad supposedly being a bad guy and not waiting to see what happens next, I think your reading too much into that.

Whose to say Bart won't make the cut, then decides to go out on his to try and make a difference. Then Dick turns to Wally to ask him to come back so he can lend his experience?

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Old 11-25-2012, 01:01 AM   #729
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
Hahah....They were good too. I just think Cyborg stands out more in my mind.
To each their own. That isn't to say I hated Cyborg - as I stated, Beast Boy was the one I couldn't stand on that show - but I thought they repeated too many of Cyborg's main plot threads. Virtually every episode that featured him hammered home the moral that he was a hero because of who he was as a man, not his cybernetic parts. That's fine once or twice, but once or twice a season without fail or variation got old. His "girly scream" was funny the first few times, but it also got overused (much like Michelangelo's similar scream in the 2003 era "TMNT" series, but I digress). Still, "TEEN TITANS" was a simpler show than this.

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I agree. I feel like DC animation is afraid to take on other Superheroes because they are not as popular. It's like they are unwilling to make the monetary investment in a character with no proven worth. It's shame they are not willing to take the risk. I'd love to see Mr. Terrific, Huntress, Nightwing make a debut sans SupesBats. Hell, I think Mr. Miracle and his exploits could make a good show.
Part of this is due to corporate demands; an AQUAMAN animated DTV was THIS CLOSE to being released with Bruce Timm producing it, but Warner Brothers home video nixed it (as well as a TEEN TITANS: JUDAS CONTRACT DTV). But, yes, I wouldn't mind seeing DC animation be willing to take some more risks in these regards.

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I agree he isn't as much as a flag-waver as he used to be, but disagree that he is that difficult to write. He can be incredibily easy for people who get him. Unfortunately, what I see is people feel he needs to be made more edgy and more this and more that. If they focused on enhancing instead of changing then it would be a different story. That's just me though.
No, you have a point there. If you make Superman "edgy", you acknowledge that he's a character who is roughly 75 years old. The best way to handle him in my eyes it to treat him as being timeless. That isn't to say to be stodgy, but that the things he stands for are universal and don't change even if the pop culture has. I also feel his supporting cast and rogues gallery also have to be handled well. There's nothing run with some detail updates to roll with the times but you don't want Superman in black leather or 90's v-neck armor.

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We'll agree to disagree because I think a lot of uncomfortableness is the reason why he runs from the the issue. It's normal. However, the only thing I see missing is what Bats did in YJ, which is confront him on the issue. Of course, others in the comics have confronted him on this, but it usually involves you are the only one who can deal with him instead of confronting the issue that it's a kid who needs guidance...regardless that he's a clone.

I see your point, but I guess I understand why Superman doesn't want to deal with it. IMO, it's the approach to how he is confronted to deal with the issue that always lacks. It usually goes....Con-El is a clone of you and we understand why you don't like it, but you need to deal with it." From that stand point, I have always understood why Superman was like "eat a 4-9-3-11."
Very well. Again, my point wasn't that Superman should have just snapped his fingers and been a perfect dad. That's boring. But that he'd make an honest attempt and not act like the kid was Cardiac and would kill him with an embrace. It isn't something I think is genuine, and feeds into the "Superdickery" meme.

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Old 11-25-2012, 02:17 AM   #730
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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Originally Posted by Gelc22 View Post
Dick might not have convinced them to retire, but he certainly dragged them back into this life knowing they chose to leave it behind. The Light and all the other evil in the world was still out there when they walked away after all. And how is Wally suppose to offer an alternative when the plan was already so far along before he was even aware of it? Dick and Kaldur were already in too deep and I'm sure Dick made it seem like they had a clear plan when he went to Artemis (and Wally). So I can see why Wally's so freaked out considering the plan relies on Dick knowing what he's doing and it was pretty clear with the events of "Darkest" that he doesn't have as much control over things as he (possibly) led on. Like you said, he did tell Wally that the hardest part was over.

And I do think there's a chance Dick would object to Wally returning to the team now. He probably knows that Wally wouldn't be as willing to stand by and let some things happen for the sake of the mission (or take some steps as the case may be) and if Wally ever came upon Artemis in trouble, there's little doubt in what he'd do. I could buy him thinking that Wally would screw things up. So I wouldn't be surprised if Dick talked Artemis into convincing Wally to stay out of it -- which she'd agee to since she'd want to protect him and it gives her one less thing to worry about.
I still am not quite sure by this stage whether at the end of "DEPTHS" that Nightwing genuinely believed that "the hard part is over" - and if so, he's criminally naive - or if he was offering Wally a less than honest platitude. Regardless, Wally at least knew better in that regard. What is obvious is that their friendship which in Season 1 was close is now naturally being effected by this very dangerous plan, not to mention the lives of those they care about.

If Nightwing objected to Wally wanting to rejoin the team, then Wally might end up going solo or even forming his own group which could be even more distracting to "the plan", so it would be in his best interests to keep an eye on him. This is all hypothetical since as of yet Wally's shown no inkling of wanting part of the the hero business anymore. The dilemma of washing your hands of something, however, is that you lose the right to criticize it to a degree. It is akin to not voting in an election and then whining about who won, or not helping bake a cake and then complaining that there isn't enough sugar. True as it may be, the chance to alter the outcome was abandoned.

Wally is too emotional for a plan like this - although he was perfectly capable of lying to the media about Princess Perdita's death to fool Count Vertigo into incriminating himself - but naturally Nightwing going around him to Artemis isn't exactly the most noble pool, either. Naturally it plays to the theme of the season - that the heroes are risking becoming their enemies in order to rout them - which at least makes it interesting TV.

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I never said that M'gann would object, just that she's aware of what's going on now. Conner will probably find out soon and he might object a bit, but I assume he'll keep it in house. The key is when the heroes outside the main six find out. I can't believe the core six's story would end with them getting completely shunned by everyone else around them.
No; specifically, M'Gann and Conner weren't part of it, and for the moment only M'Gann has stumbled upon it. I can't imagine Cheshire or Paula Crock would be thrilled to have been manipulated and gone through the turmoil of Artemis' "death"; the latter especially. Being involved in this is probably the dirtiest thing that Wally's been involved with his squeaky clean Flash legacy family. I can imagine Nightwing being booted as leader after it is exposed, of course. How could the rest of his teammates fully trust him in that capacity if he is willing to use them as pawns?

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Wally doesn't just care about Artemis, though. He showed obvious concern for Dick, Conner, and the three kids that got taken in his scene in "Darkest". Artemis is definitely the one he's worried about the most, but she's hardly the only one he's worried about.

The irony is that he claimed he hasn't "ditched his friends" in "Salvage" and he's pretty much doing that right now.
I know, but Wally is attached more to Artemis than to Bart or the other characters over the long haul of the show. Earlier you said that Wally hasn't keep kept in the loop about the plan specifics so he couldn't offer any alternatives, now you say he's ditched everyone. Which is it? The most we've seen is that he was spending his time comforting Paula Crock over her daughter's "death", which was naturally a conflicting thing for him. Bart seemed to imply he hangs out with Wally during downtime in "DARKEST". Of course, it seems the circumstances to lead Wally to suit up again are very rare and specific. He'd probably have to literally see Tigress being imperiled on National TV at this rate.

It doesn't seem that this particular point is addressed in what we know of the next two episodes from World's Finest news.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
"CORNERED" is about the team fighting an alien warlord (my guess is Despero) and "TRUE COLORS" is about Robin/Tim Drake leading an undercover team to investigate LexCorp and the Reach. All that is known about the 13th episode of Season 2 is that Greg Weisman wrote it himself.


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Originally Posted by nygma619 View Post
How do we know Dick tried convincing Wally to sit out, due to feeling him being emotionally involved would cloud his judgment?
Uh, we don't. I was just stating that nothing we've seen suggested Nightwing had any part in Wally and Artemis "retiring" from "the life". From what Greg Weisman's said on his blog it may not be anything too specific but I imagine Tula's "death" was a catalyst in that.

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Since when does quantity dictate whether someone is a vital and/or important character? Also regardless of who was involved with who, how did that stop Wally's arc(s) in season 1 from being resolved?
In most serialized stories, the more often a character shows up the more central to the cast they are and the more impact they tend to have in stories. A character who only shows up once in a season is a guest star and not usually terribly important beyond a plot point, whereas someone who appears in every episode or every other episode is usually more important. And then it comes down to role. Snarf or Orko turned up in most episodes of their shows, but most times they were comic relief. Man At Arms or Panthro were not the stars but were more important, and so on.

Wally's arc in Season 1 boiled down to him learning perspective and figuring out Artemis was right for him. That was resolved. In Season Two his arc is support. His worrying about Artemis magnifies her subplot more. His verbal confrontations with Grayson magnify the danger of his gambit and the overall situation. That's what support characters do.

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Are you still going on about that despite Greg Weisman stating that the six main characters are the ones they are focused the most on?
I would submit into evidence that Blue Beetle, Bart Allen, and possibly Wonder Girl have gotten more (or equal) screen time than more than one of his "six leads" this season. Which begs to question the entire statement. The people working on any show are closer to it than anyone in the audience, but that can sometimes lead to a difference in translation when they discuss it. Craig Kyle, for instance, every time he discussed "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" described a far more nuanced and interesting show than what was actually airing. I am certain that as Weisman and the writers handled the season, the "six leads" were motivating the action, but that doesn't translate into focus or screen time a lot. Regardless, out of the six leads Nightwing and Kaldur are driving most of the action even if Kaldur spends a few episodes off here and there. Megan and Superboy had their own subplot which became intertwined. Artemis subplot is getting in deep with a dark situation she probably didn't anticipate when she signed on, and which she's spent her entire life avoiding. Wally's subplot is reacting to the other subplots, which isn't a subplot at all.

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I think you still put too much stock into that line of thought. Most of us can agree that Wally will eventually take up the Flash mantle, but first something has to happen to Barry (and perhaps Bart as well). Stuff like that and worrying about Artemis, will all tie into his arc, being a hero again.
When we're midway through a season and Wonder Girl and Beast Boy have mattered more to the plot than one of the "six leads", I call it as I see it. The fact that "BEFORE THE DAWN" was almost the season finale doesn't aid that argument.

In terms of the comics, yes, Wally eventually becomes the Flash (before Barry returns to the mantle decades later, and then FLASHPOINT erases him). This cartoon is its own beast with its own continuity and unique history. Character paths are not set in stone. Superboy is not the same as the Conner Kent in the comics from the 90's, and that's merely one example.

I doubt this show is killing off Barry Allen (or Wally West) on camera. If there is a third season I could see Wally being Flash by then after another time skip (whether Grayson would be Batman or not would be interesting). I certainly wouldn't be entirely devastated if Bart bought it, but I usually don't make a dead pool for the show all the time. Wally doesn't have an arc this season; he's support. His most notable appearance this season was in ushering in Impulse. I'm sure he'll suit up again but I sincerely doubt he's going to factor more than Blue Beetle this season. For someone who isn't one of the "six leads", he sure mattered a great deal in the mid-season finale. He even upstaged Superboy, which is a terribly rare feat.

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Again much like Aqualad supposedly being a bad guy and not waiting to see what happens next, I think your reading too much into that.

Whose to say Bart won't make the cut, then decides to go out on his to try and make a difference. Then Dick turns to Wally to ask him to come back so he can lend his experience?
Suddenly the debate of whether Aqualad is a bad guy has risen again, or at least if he will become one after "BEFORE THE DAWN". I actually hope he isn't. I'd rather not see stereotypes enforced.

If I am quick to judgement, I think sometimes you dismiss what you have seen to wait for the unknown. We're midway through the season, dude. The next two episodes don't have any mention of this particular bit in their log lines. There's too much to do. I've moved to the stage where I don't expect certain things in the slightest. If they happen, nice. If not, well, I'm not holding my breath. The shortened season has been a bane. I imagine whatever resolution we get in this regard will be through Artemis or Impulse's storylines, or whatever flashback bit Tula will be in.

Gelc22 rose the point that Grayson may not accept Wally back on "the team" if he sought to rejoin for fear he'd undermine the plan either by getting too emotional or second guessing his orders. I am not automatically saying I agree with that but it is a valid point. Impulse is from the future, he's the Cable. Even if he's booted from the team he'll matter to the seasonal arc. The show wouldn't have gone through such lengths to introduce him otherwise.

Regardless, January can't come soon enough, and even "The Light" couldn't anticipate an enemy like Cartoon Network's scheduling department.

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Last edited by Dread; 11-25-2012 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:28 AM   #731
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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I still am not quite sure by this stage whether at the end of "DEPTHS" that Nightwing genuinely believed that "the hard part is over" - and if so, he's criminally naive - or if he was offering Wally a less than honest platitude. Regardless, Wally at least knew better in that regard.
It doesn't matter whether Wally knew better or not. If Dick really believed the hardest part was over, then that's certainly not a good sign after "Darkest". If he was just offering Wally false assurance, then he's leaving himself wide open for criticism once things get worse as he expects. Either way, it was an idiotic thing to say given the situation.

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If Nightwing objected to Wally wanting to rejoin the team, then Wally might end up going solo or even forming his own group which could be even more distracting to "the plan", so it would be in his best interests to keep an eye on him.
Dick also thought that leaving Wally out of the plan entirely was a good option. I mean, it's not like Wally thinking Kaldur killed Artemis could cause any problems for "the plan". We could have had Wally teaming up with Jade to take Kaldur down if that happened.

And I mentioned that Dick would have Artemis convince Wally to sit out. I definitely think Wally would do that for her depending on how she went about it. Which is why he wouldn't go off solo or anything like that.

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The dilemma of washing your hands of something, however, is that you lose the right to criticize it to a degree. It is akin to not voting in an election and then whining about who won, or not helping bake a cake and then complaining that there isn't enough sugar. True as it may be, the chance to alter the outcome was abandoned.
Wally has the right to criticize due to having his life interrupted by Dick dragging them back into all this. He had to know that Artemis/Wally was a package deal and was going against their wishes to leave the life behind them. Wally's life is also heavily influenced by what happens here and I think that gives him a say. Now whether anyone else agrees or not is an entirely different matter.

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I can imagine Nightwing being booted as leader after it is exposed, of course. How could the rest of his teammates fully trust him in that capacity if he is willing to use them as pawns?
Of course he's going to get booted as leader. Probably goes the solo route after this. I just don't think the fallout will be as bad as some expect. As you mentioned, they'll probably succeed with the plan and that will give them some leeway with the others. There will be consequences for sure, though.

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I know, but Wally is attached more to Artemis than to Bart or the other characters over the long haul of the show. Earlier you said that Wally hasn't keep kept in the loop about the plan specifics so he couldn't offer any alternatives, now you say he's ditched everyone. Which is it?
I don't see how those things conflict with the other? As we know, Artemis/Wally didn't know about the plan until they needed her help and that seems to be pretty recent (a month or so, I'm guessing). I'm sure Dick had some clear cut plan and what Artemis' role in it was when he came to them and I don't see why Wally could offer any alternatives outside of Artemis not doing it. Kaldur was already undercover and Wally wasn't going to come up with a plan to take out the Light overnight as you can bet he'd try if it meant Artemis didn't have to do this. So I'm sure that since Artemis was doing this anyway, then he'd have to trust Dick and Kaldur's ideas as they've got a far better grasp about what's going on as they've been in on it since the beginning. And he had no reason to believe the mission wasn't going according to their plan until the events in "Darkest". And I seriously doubt Kaldur called Wally up to ask if he had any alternatives besides taking out the cave.

As for ditching his friends, that's after the events of "Darkest". That was a game changer as it became clear to Wally that Dick didn't have as much control over things as he'd like, that Artemis' life is in even more jeopardy because of it, and that his other friends could easily get caught up in "the plan's" wake. Him sitting out after that is pretty hard for me to believe other than the show wanting to keep him on the sidelines. I know it's been five years but it seems to go against his character if he's simply sitting out just because he wants to -- especially since he suited up in "Bloodlines".


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Old 11-25-2012, 10:04 AM   #732
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

Well maybe the reason Wally would be faster in the future he became the Flash is because the writers decided for some reason for him to be, maybe cause of age, experience, power development, etc.

I see where you are coming from, but I'm just saying nothing is set in stone because the writers can change their mind to do whatever to fit the stories they are telling.

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:58 AM   #733
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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It doesn't matter whether Wally knew better or not. If Dick really believed the hardest part was over, then that's certainly not a good sign after "Darkest". If he was just offering Wally false assurance, then he's leaving himself wide open for criticism once things get worse as he expects. Either way, it was an idiotic thing to say given the situation.
Considering "DEPTHS" was our last bit of "YOUNG JUSTICE" for some time before the recent tease of 2-3 episodes, I did have likely far too much time to chew on that scene. These gaps between episodes kind of lead to discussions/debates about the show getting intense.

To play Devil's Advocate, Grayson has never been as dark a character as Batman, due to a great deal to Batman's own efforts and his allies such as Kaldur and Wally. Unlike Batman, he apprehended his parents' killer very quickly. Unlike Batman, he's had costumed mentors, peers, and allies at his side since he was young. Thus even though Grayson has become far more cold and calculating than when he was a teenager, some level of naivety isn't terribly unusual. He is perhaps too used to quicker and cleaner endings and while he adapts to changes, nobody can anticipate everything.

The irony of course is that in comparison, Wally's seemed to have an ideal life. He's part of the Flash legacy, both his parents and he lived a middle class lifestyle, and any negative aspects of that have never been shown. Nobody's died on him so far, and he even got the girl. Yet at least in that instance he seemed more savvy than Grayson did.

Quote:
Dick also thought that leaving Wally out of the plan entirely was a good option. I mean, it's not like Wally thinking Kaldur killed Artemis could cause any problems for "the plan". We could have had Wally teaming up with Jade to take Kaldur down if that happened.

And I mentioned that Dick would have Artemis convince Wally to sit out. I definitely think Wally would do that for her depending on how she went about it. Which is why he wouldn't go off solo or anything like that.
You've been kicking for that "Wally revenge subplot" for a while now.

It does seem more probable that Wally would sit things out and allow the plan to go through more for Artemis' benefit than Grayson's. He not only loves her, he respects her, after all. That was part of their arc in Season 1; essentially getting to the place where they appreciated each other's strengths or at least got past the armor a bit (such as Artemis being a nice person under the "tough girl" persona, and Wally being more aware and insightful when he isn't being a moron).

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Wally has the right to criticize due to having his life interrupted by Dick dragging them back into all this. He had to know that Artemis/Wally was a package deal and was going against their wishes to leave the life behind them. Wally's life is also heavily influenced by what happens here and I think that gives him a say. Now whether anyone else agrees or not is an entirely different matter.
I know, but simply complaining without offering an alternative solution only gets you so far. Just ask Congress.

Eventually Wally has to do something, otherwise all his criticism is simply hot air. Or, as I usually state, supporting character fodder.

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Of course he's going to get booted as leader. Probably goes the solo route after this. I just don't think the fallout will be as bad as some expect. As you mentioned, they'll probably succeed with the plan and that will give them some leeway with the others. There will be consequences for sure, though.
I can't imagine most of the superheroes, young or old, would accept this level of treachery and secretive stuff simply for an end goal. Faking deaths and allowing bases to be blown up, and allies to be captured and tormented, is the moral event horizon for many of the squeakier superheroes (Superman, Capt. Marvel, maybe Wonder Woman or one of the Lanterns, etc.). I could imagine Batman eventually accepting it, but he's the god damned Batman; he INVENTED underhanded superhero shenanigans. I imagine the "six leads" may be all that they each have left to a degree, and even they may not be the best of friends anymore. Even Megan the psychic monster was hurt that her emotions were trifled with merely as an end to a means. Artemis and Nightwing may come out the best or at least the least damaged simply due to their darker ties, and the company they keep.

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I don't see how those things conflict with the other? As we know, Artemis/Wally didn't know about the plan until they needed her help and that seems to be pretty recent (a month or so, I'm guessing). I'm sure Dick had some clear cut plan and what Artemis' role in it was when he came to them and I don't see why Wally could offer any alternatives outside of Artemis not doing it. Kaldur was already undercover and Wally wasn't going to come up with a plan to take out the Light overnight as you can bet he'd try if it meant Artemis didn't have to do this. So I'm sure that since Artemis was doing this anyway, then he'd have to trust Dick and Kaldur's ideas as they've got a far better grasp about what's going on as they've been in on it since the beginning. And he had no reason to believe the mission wasn't going according to their plan until the events in "Darkest". And I seriously doubt Kaldur called Wally up to ask if he had any alternatives besides taking out the cave.

As for ditching his friends, that's after the events of "Darkest". That was a game changer as it became clear to Wally that Dick didn't have as much control over things as he'd like, that Artemis' life is in even more jeopardy because of it, and that his other friends could easily get caught up in "the plan's" wake. Him sitting out after that is pretty hard for me to believe other than the show wanting to keep him on the sidelines. I know it's been five years but it seems to go against his character if he's simply sitting out just because he wants to -- especially since he suited up in "Bloodlines".
Technically, Artemis' involvement in "the plan" has gone on for roughly 10 days (as of "BEFORE THE DAWN"). Kaldur was apparently under for "months", or "about a year", depending on what you read and what dialogue is said. So, yes, it is fairly recent.

Essentially, your issue is that Wally should have gone with the rescue team in "BEFORE THE DAWN". I do agree that it is a bit odd that considering where "DARKEST" ended that he didn't. Unless of course I remember that Wally is a supporting character this season, and supporting characters don't do things like that often. As for "BLOODLINES", my take on that is that Wally suited up because the incident was happening in the same city he was in, and that he was there to keep an eye on Impulse. Since Impulse disobeyed Barry by following him to fight Neutron, Wally tagged along to keep an eye on both of them. I suppose then logic would suggest Wally would have, if anything, wanted to keep an eye on Nightwing, Kaldur, and Artemis, but that also could have undermined the mission further. After all, Wally seeming to help "Tigress" if she got hit a bit too hard wouldn't look good. I am with you that "BEFORE THE DAWN" would have felt a little more organic if Wally were there, but I can understand why the show didn't bother. It's not their priority. Their priority is the plot at large; character bits are secondary.

When it comes to Wally on this show I can say I have gone through the five stages of grieving. I am past anger and bargaining and into acceptance. He'll turn up for supporting dialogue scenes with various characters, and in time for the finale will hit some minions and pull a lever. Anything else is a pleasant surprise, and frankly I'll be stunned if he even gets that much. I am aware that this shortened season and intensified storyline has forced the writers to edit even more to the bone with their scripts, and Wally's just a part of that. It's life. I've given up on Colossus being a regular on an X-Men show and I can still watch those fine, even as every one teases me with a cameo that amounts to nothing. "YOUNG JUSTICE" offers far more in terms of plot and other characters (Artemis, Grayson, Kaldur, Blue Beetle, hell, even Conner has grown more on me since he broke up with Megan) to hold my interest and still kick ass. Even had "BEFORE THE DAWN" been it (which thankfully it isn't), at least "YJ" would have given Wally an actual relationship in a cartoon rather than just have him be a bachelor mostly played for laughs, like in "JLU" (where virtually every Flash flirt was usually mocked or treated for laughs until Linda Park came out of nowhere and was hot for him).

I still hope for more of Queen Bee and at least one more fight sequence with Vandal Savage. He's bad ass.

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:24 AM   #734
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

Eh, I agree with both of you.

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Old 11-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #735
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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No; specifically, M'Gann and Conner weren't part of it, and for the moment only M'Gann has stumbled upon it. I can't imagine Cheshire or Paula Crock would be thrilled to have been manipulated and gone through the turmoil of Artemis' "death"; the latter especially.
Am I the only one who thinks Wally DID tell Paula Crock that her daughter is alive and undercover off screen? After everything she said to him I can't think of a good reason WHY Wally would think she needs to think her daughter is dead. Who's she going to tell anything to anyways?

Quote:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
All that is known about the 13th episode of Season 2 is that Greg Weisman wrote it himself.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
It's also called "The Fix".


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In Season Two his arc is support.
Correction, that's what you BELIEVE his arc is based on semantics.

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His worrying about Artemis magnifies her subplot more. His verbal confrontations with Grayson magnify the danger of his gambit and the overall situation. That's what support characters do.
Accept you BLINDLY believe the assumption that THIS won't evolve into something more personal for him.

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I would submit into evidence that Blue Beetle, Bart Allen, and possibly Wonder Girl have gotten more (or equal) screen time than more than one of his "six leads" this season.
That doesn't mean they have meatier characterization. Wonder Girl has been little more than another body in the war zone. Granted Mae Whitman's done a great job with what little she's been given.

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Craig Kyle, for instance, every time he discussed "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" described a far more nuanced and interesting show than what was actually airing.
How is that different from what any other producer does?

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I am certain that as Weisman and the writers handled the season, the "six leads" were motivating the action, but that doesn't translate into focus or screen time a lot.
Again your basing that on an unfinished season.

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Wally's subplot is reacting to the other subplots, which isn't a subplot at all.
Again, much like Kaldur being revealed to be a double agent later in the 1st half of the season. How do you know this isn't being setup for Wally's own personal development later on in the season?

Quote:
When we're midway through a season and Wonder Girl and Beast Boy have mattered more to the plot than one of the "six leads", I call it as I see it. The fact that "BEFORE THE DAWN" was almost the season finale doesn't aid that argument.
REALLY? Again, they've been mostly bodies in a war zone. We don't know what's they're thinking deep down for the most part as this whole fiasco goes on. With Wally we're given a deeper examination on what he's going through. The way you are seeing it, basically says, Wally's "status quo" will not change and he won't be coming back to the hero life full time, ever.

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In terms of the comics, yes, Wally eventually becomes the Flash (before Barry returns to the mantle decades later, and then FLASHPOINT erases him). This cartoon is its own beast with its own continuity and unique history. Character paths are not set in stone.
If Weisman's thing is staying true to the core truth of who certain characters like Wally are. He's gonna end up in the Flash mantle.

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Superboy is not the same as the Conner Kent in the comics from the 90's, and that's merely one example.
At least not anymore. In the comics he started off like this.

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Wally doesn't have an arc this season; he's support.
Again your basing that on only one scenario, not other potential scenarios.

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His most notable appearance this season was in ushering in Impulse. I'm sure he'll suit up again but I sincerely doubt he's going to factor more than Blue Beetle this season. For someone who isn't one of the "six leads", he sure mattered a great deal in the mid-season finale. He even upstaged Superboy, which is a terribly rare feat.
I thought his most notable appearance this season was in Darkest during he and Dick's arguement. Which I might add was the best moment of the season so far.

Once Black Beetle isn't as much of an issue I don't see Blue Beetle mattering as much.

PLEASE, there's been plenty of people that have upstaged Superboy in this series. From Black Canary, Wotan, Klarion's Cat, Parasite, and now Black Beetle.

Also I don't see these producers being paranoid about side characters getting a chance to shine at another characters expense. With them I feel it's more about who they feel fits certain situations. Not always bending the situation to make a character look cool.

Quote:
Suddenly the debate of whether Aqualad is a bad guy has risen again, or at least if he will become one after "BEFORE THE DAWN". I actually hope he isn't. I'd rather not see stereotypes enforced.
Your right, we should make sure no African American characters become criminals, and that the rest of them become reformed. Because that's more realistice.

At least this time, you know the circumstances behind it, something you moaned about at the beginning of the season, only to find out it was all for nothing. I see history repeating itself later on.

Quote:
If I am quick to judgement, I think sometimes you dismiss what you have seen to wait for the unknown. We're midway through the season, dude.
Unknown=/= educated guess based on what you know about a producer's previous work and how they operate. 95% of the time Greg Weisman usually puts something like Wally being "shown up" by Impulse and Flash, in there for a reason. Hell they wrote something as obscure as Wally tripping infront of Artemis when he first meets her to mean something in the long run. And your telling me THAT subplot in Bloodlines won't matter in the long run? I think Wally's time to shine will be coming later in the season. Sure that might not be your thing, you know WAITING. But it's not like he needs to be back on the team so badly that NOT being there is killing his characterization.

Quote:
The next two episodes don't have any mention of this particular bit in their log lines.
Wally and Roy weren't mentioned in Salvage's loglines either.

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Old 11-28-2012, 06:25 PM   #736
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

So when are these getting shown? Any certain dates?

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Old 11-28-2012, 06:57 PM   #737
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So when are these getting shown? Any certain dates?
January, if CN is to be trusted.

Though I'm expecting "Before the Dawn" and an actual new episode to air for two weeks followed by "Hey, DC Nation fans!..." announcing it moved to near the end of March.

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I can say the biggest difference between this show [YOUNG JUSTICE] and "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN" is showcased in one detail; this show expects their audience to know who H.G. Welles is, while "USM" assumes kids have never done anything but play video games in their room or watch MTV.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:53 PM   #738
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

Lol, yep that's how it will go. Thanks.

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:40 PM   #739
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

Well I for one am choosing to hold onto faith that it could actually happen and we'll see Young Justice again in January. Against my better judgement, but I will hold it.

Have we discussed who the mystery alien is in episode 11 (or is it 12?) that was teased? I've heard Despero, Lobo, Darkseid (extremely unlikely), but the most interesting idea I've heard is Starfire. She could have the same intro that she did in Go! from Teen Titans where she is an escaped prisoner who finds her way to Earth and somehow gets trapped in the Hall with some Young Leagers (obviously including Nightwing). Then one thing leads to another and she's a regular character. I'm sure the large 12-14 year old girl following that the show has picked up will be overjoyed to see Nightwing with a love interest again.......

As cool of an idea as this sounds, I don't think this show needs any more characters added to the team. This doesn't need to turn into Young Justice Unlimited YET. But if it plans to follow the basic superhero team-up show formula, it will end up with a roster of 20+ characters as JLU and Teen Titans did in some ways. I know Static Shock has been teased (and made an appearance for those who haven't seen Before the Dawn) but after him I think they need to chill out with adding new heroes.

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Old 11-29-2012, 10:09 AM   #740
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

I don't mind them adding new heroes as long as they give them some character development.

The problem JLU had was it had all these characters, but the show still only focused on the main characters with probably 5-10 additional characters ever really shown or used.

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Old 11-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #741
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I don't mind them adding new heroes as long as they give them some character development.

The problem JLU had was it had all these characters, but the show still only focused on the main characters with probably 5-10 additional characters ever really shown or used.
Well they tried to give the other characters spotlights (usually one episode apiece) There was a Booster Gold episode along with Mister Miracle/Big Barda, Vigilante, Huntress, and others. YJ doesn't even do that. I still have no idea who Mal Duncan is or why he is even there. We haven't had a great deal of information about Batgirl, Bumblebee, Tim, or Rocket either. These characters kind of showed up and pop in and out once in a blue moon. Tim did get his episode earlier but after that he melted into the background. If they want to add Satic, Starfire, etc they'll need to give them focus episodes and legitimate reasons for joining the team.

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Old 11-29-2012, 12:30 PM   #742
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Well they tried to give the other characters spotlights (usually one episode apiece) There was a Booster Gold episode along with Mister Miracle/Big Barda, Vigilante, Huntress, and others. YJ doesn't even do that. I still have no idea who Mal Duncan is or why he is even there. We haven't had a great deal of information about Batgirl, Bumblebee, Tim, or Rocket either. These characters kind of showed up and pop in and out once in a blue moon. Tim did get his episode earlier but after that he melted into the background. If they want to add Satic, Starfire, etc they'll need to give them focus episodes and legitimate reasons for joining the team.
True, JLU did at least give some charaters their own episodes, but the main characters more times than not still played an important part.

I only learned of Mal Duncan from reading the wiki page. I thought he was Cyborg at first with some new tech that allowed him to look more human, but his tech was hidden underneath kind of how Tess/Mercy's weaponized arms were.

Missed opportunity to introduce a different version of Cyborg if you ask me.

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Old 11-29-2012, 05:31 PM   #743
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Missed opportunity to introduce a different version of Cyborg if you ask me.
Why? Mal Duncan is not Cyborg. Victor Stone is.

Not to mention, why should we have Cyborg again? We already had him as a main character in a long-running show. Let other characters have their time to shine.

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I can say the biggest difference between this show [YOUNG JUSTICE] and "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN" is showcased in one detail; this show expects their audience to know who H.G. Welles is, while "USM" assumes kids have never done anything but play video games in their room or watch MTV.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:00 PM   #744
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Why? Mal Duncan is not Cyborg. Victor Stone is.

Not to mention, why should we have Cyborg again? We already had him as a main character in a long-running show. Let other characters have their time to shine.
Well historically, Beast Boy and Cyborg are best buds. Although it seems that Beast Boy will play kid brother to M'Gann instead so I guess that's that.

I knew Mal wasn't Victor but I'm still confused as to who he really is. I know he played like 3 different superheroes at different times - Vox and Herald stick out in my mind. In any case, he seems a bit useless to me right now especially since the only real relationship with other characters in the show seem to be through Bumblebee who isn't very prominent herself. I feel like they needed to fill the racial diversity quota after Rocket and Aqualad left the main team. Don't mean to sound harsh but seeing how they have almost no important in the plot other than cannon fodder in Bumblebee's case it's all I can assume.

But whatever Bee is cooking up in Dr. Palmer's lab could end up being important since they have made that a prominent thing. Maybe that'll be what gives Mal his "powers"?

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Old 11-29-2012, 07:11 PM   #745
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Thus even though Grayson has become far more cold and calculating than when he was a teenager, some level of naivety isn't terribly unusual. He is perhaps too used to quicker and cleaner endings and while he adapts to changes, nobody can anticipate everything.
But it's not naivety. It's stupidity. He's well aware that things don't go exactly as they want as Kaldur was partly responsible for the kroloteans deaths in "Alienated" and the shuttle wasn't supposed to get destroyed in "Depths". Not to mention sending two people behind enemy lines - with one of them's entire cover relying on a charm necklace that any magic villain could sense - is extremely risky. If he truly believed that the hardest part was over then I don't see how he's equipped to lead something like this.

So I have to believe he was just offering Wally false assurance, and that's stupidity in itself. There's something about knowing your audience and it was clear that Wally wasn't going to be up for his BS given the situation. Then again, he's never really shown all that much respect for Wally, so maybe he did expect him to go along with it.

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You've been kicking for that "Wally revenge subplot" for a while now.
It could have been fun! But seriously, there's a very real possibility that Dick would have had to consider that option if he wanted to let Wally think that Kaldur killed Artemis for real, right?

Quote:
Essentially, your issue is that Wally should have gone with the rescue team in "BEFORE THE DAWN". I do agree that it is a bit odd that considering where "DARKEST" ended that he didn't. Unless of course I remember that Wally is a supporting character this season, and supporting characters don't do things like that often.
But that's my point. "Bloodlines" established that while Wally doesn't want to get back into the hero life, he's still willing to suit up if he feels it's an emergency and feels needed. I'd consider his cousin getting kidnapped and tortured such a situation, especially since he can't completely trust Dick to rescue him as he and Kaldur were responsible for Bart getting captured to begin with. So I see Wally not taking part in that mission as out of character and chalking it up as the show just doesn't care to use him.

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at least "YJ" would have given Wally an actual relationship in a cartoon rather than just have him be a bachelor mostly played for laughs, like in "JLU" (where virtually every Flash flirt was usually mocked or treated for laughs until Linda Park came out of nowhere and was hot for him).
But that's not really that much different than Wally in "YJ", is it? His flirting was mocked and played for laughs at every turn in the first season.

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Am I the only one who thinks Wally DID tell Paula Crock that her daughter is alive and undercover off screen?
I doubt he told her. Because why put that scene in there if he was just going to tell her the truth anyway? And Artemis obviously didn't seem to be concerned with her mother knowing the truth despite no real reason to leave her out. Not to mention that Wally was most likely the one that broke the news of Artemis' death to her in the first place. If he could do that and still keep his resolve than the scene at the cemetery would be nothing.

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Once Black Beetle isn't as much of an issue I don't see Blue Beetle mattering as much.
Given Blue Beetle's role in Bart's future and the Reach's involvment in that, he's relevant as long as the Reach is a problem. Which is probably going to be the majority of this season, which could very well be YJ's last.

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Unknown=/= educated guess based on what you know about a producer's previous work and how they operate. 95% of the time Greg Weisman usually puts something like Wally being "shown up" by Impulse and Flash, in there for a reason. Hell they wrote something as obscure as Wally tripping infront of Artemis when he first meets her to mean something in the long run. And your telling me THAT subplot in Bloodlines won't matter in the long run?
There's no story there, though. Wally's inferior because he messed up the science experiment as confirmed by Weisman, and he's not going to get any faster. And his inferior abilities doesn't appear to have had much of a role in his retirement as Weisman pointed out there's no real reason for why he quit. And I'm sure he's done plenty of good things when he was a hero to know that he made some sort of difference. So I don't see why the show having Wally get mocked means anything more than that. He gets mocked all the time. Robin and Artemis practically made a living out of it during the first season.

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Wally and Roy weren't mentioned in Salvage's loglines either.
Roy was indirectly hinted at in the logline as the "fallen friend", wasn't he? It was pretty obvious that it was him. As for Wally, his appearance was meaningless in that episode outside of being seen with Artemis.

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Originally Posted by cleverusername8 View Post
I'm sure the large 12-14 year old girl following that the show has picked up will be overjoyed to see Nightwing with a love interest again.......
But Nightwing gets more play than anyone else already. Zatanna, Rocket, and Bette Kane. Not to mention whatever he may or may not have with Batgirl. Does he really need another?

But I believe Weisman mentioned that Starfire is on the list of characters for Season Three in an interview if it were to happen, so odds are we won't see her this season.


Last edited by Gelc22; 11-29-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:21 PM   #746
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
Why? Mal Duncan is not Cyborg. Victor Stone is.

Not to mention, why should we have Cyborg again? We already had him as a main character in a long-running show. Let other characters have their time to shine.
I know Mal isn't Cyborg and Victor is. What I meant was before they really introduced who he was by saying his name he could have just as easily been cyborg. He seems to be technically inclined so it wouldn't have been far fetched. Plus the reasoning he is in the cave "working" seems lame to me. Yeah he will probably get his laters because of what Bee and the prof. are working on, but to have a non-hero in the cave just seems out of place, but whatever.

Plus, they have used quite a few characters already anyway from Teen Titans. What would it hurt to have Cyborg on the show?

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Well historically, Beast Boy and Cyborg are best buds. Although it seems that Beast Boy will play kid brother to M'Gann instead so I guess that's that.

I knew Mal wasn't Victor but I'm still confused as to who he really is. I know he played like 3 different superheroes at different times - Vox and Herald stick out in my mind. In any case, he seems a bit useless to me right now especially since the only real relationship with other characters in the show seem to be through Bumblebee who isn't very prominent herself. I feel like they needed to fill the racial diversity quota after Rocket and Aqualad left the main team. Don't mean to sound harsh but seeing how they have almost no important in the plot other than cannon fodder in Bumblebee's case it's all I can assume.

But whatever Bee is cooking up in Dr. Palmer's lab could end up being important since they have made that a prominent thing. Maybe that'll be what gives Mal his "powers"?
Yeah, I'm guessing this is what will happen too.

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Old 11-30-2012, 08:54 PM   #747
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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Originally Posted by cleverusername8 View Post
I knew Mal wasn't Victor but I'm still confused as to who he really is. I know he played like 3 different superheroes at different times - Vox and Herald stick out in my mind. In any case, he seems a bit useless to me right now especially since the only real relationship with other characters in the show seem to be through Bumblebee who isn't very prominent herself. I feel like they needed to fill the racial diversity quota after Rocket and Aqualad left the main team. Don't mean to sound harsh but seeing how they have almost no important in the plot other than cannon fodder in Bumblebee's case it's all I can assume.

But whatever Bee is cooking up in Dr. Palmer's lab could end up being important since they have made that a prominent thing. Maybe that'll be what gives Mal his "powers"?
I'm calling that its a zeta beam accident, just like in the comics that merges him with his horn.

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Old 12-01-2012, 02:04 PM   #748
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

Where's his horn at?

Maybe they will do an update and he will be able to create the vortex out of the center of his chest and it will make a horn sound when it first opens, kind of like the sound on War of the Worlds when the tripods first appear.

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Old 12-02-2012, 02:45 AM   #749
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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Originally Posted by nygma619 View Post
Am I the only one who thinks Wally DID tell Paula Crock that her daughter is alive and undercover off screen? After everything she said to him I can't think of a good reason WHY Wally would think she needs to think her daughter is dead. Who's she going to tell anything to anyways?
If Cheshire passed by the old apartment and noticed Paula's not quite so depressed, that could be an issue. It would also depend on how well Paula could keep up an act or not compromise a mission. She might attempt to contact Artemis, which could be a problem. I don't think Wally told her, although naturally deceiving her would be a burden on him.

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
It's also called "The Fix".
I saw that on Wikipedia but I take everything I read there with a grain of salt. Where was that officially stated?

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Correction, that's what you BELIEVE his arc is based on semantics.
And what he's done so far on the episodes this season which have aired, not which exist in fandom's collective imagination and desires.

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Accept you BLINDLY believe the assumption that THIS won't evolve into something more personal for him.
Frankly, I believe the show doesn't have enough time to focus on it, so if it does come up it will be very short, very rushed and happen as a footnote to something plot related. With a season some 20% shorter than the last, there has to be that compromise on time. The show is not going to grind to a halt to resolve this sort of conflict. I mean, this isn't Red Arrow we're talking about.

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That doesn't mean they have meatier characterization. Wonder Girl has been little more than another body in the war zone. Granted Mae Whitman's done a great job with what little she's been given.
Wonder Girl has had a small arc revolving around her getting past being awe struck by the heroes she is allied with and backing up her enthusiasm with genuine experience and fortitude. She's essentially the "rookie" of the troupe I feel.

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Again your basing that on an unfinished season.
My interpretation of the episodes which have aired thus far.

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Again, much like Kaldur being revealed to be a double agent later in the 1st half of the season. How do you know this isn't being setup for Wally's own personal development later on in the season?
Because unless it has to do with developing Artemis or (this season) Impulse, or someone else, Wally doesn't have much to do this season. In fact I could probably argue he did more last season, and lord knows I griped on this point then.

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REALLY? Again, they've been mostly bodies in a war zone. We don't know what's they're thinking deep down for the most part as this whole fiasco goes on. With Wally we're given a deeper examination on what he's going through. The way you are seeing it, basically says, Wally's "status quo" will not change and he won't be coming back to the hero life full time, ever.
I never said he'd never get back into the hero life. In fact I have said quite often that I have no doubt he will suit up again at least once, more than likely for a finale. I just doubt the season has any time to make it more than another "body in a war zone". We may get a few token lines but I don't expect it to be a major deal.

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If Weisman's thing is staying true to the core truth of who certain characters like Wally are. He's gonna end up in the Flash mantle.
Eventually, maybe. But not this season, I think.

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At least not anymore. In the comics he started off like this.
In the 90's he started out with a costume and had a sense of humor. In this show it took Conner about a season to develop the latter.

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Again your basing that on only one scenario, not other potential scenarios.
I would prefer to have a realistic expectation which is perhaps surpassed than a lofty one which can't be met.

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I thought his most notable appearance this season was in Darkest during he and Dick's arguement. Which I might add was the best moment of the season so far.

Once Black Beetle isn't as much of an issue I don't see Blue Beetle mattering as much.

PLEASE, there's been plenty of people that have upstaged Superboy in this series. From Black Canary, Wotan, Klarion's Cat, Parasite, and now Black Beetle.

Also I don't see these producers being paranoid about side characters getting a chance to shine at another characters expense. With them I feel it's more about who they feel fits certain situations. Not always bending the situation to make a character look cool.
Black Beetle IS THE VILLAIN OF THE SEASON. He has all but filled the role that Sportsmaster had last season as the main "dragon" of the villains. He has been featured and built up for several episodes and naturally got a big battle in "BEFORE THE DAWN", which as cool as it was seemed to be a teaser for a larger battle. Yet here you are acting as if the show is going to dismiss him as if he's Bane or Parasite or something.

You also confuse upstage for defeat. There is a difference.

I feel the producers enjoy a cast of thousands, but with that comes the risk of missing the forest for the trees and losing focus on where it counts the most. "JLU" definitely suffered that fate sometimes and while "YJ" has a stronger serial narrative, it has also succumbed to some of the same temptations.

I do agree that the moment in "DARKEST" was good. I have said several times that Wally's thing this season has resulted in a few good dialogue scenes. There's nothing wrong with being a support character when you get scenes like that. Just if you like certain characters being doers of things, then it can be a drag. Wally hasn't done anything; his thing is react to what other characters do around him. Which is fine to a point.

In the end I feel it will be moot because despite the hiccups Nightwing will come closer to hindering the Light than the League ever did. You can't argue with success. Of course how he got there will come with ramifications.

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Your right, we should make sure no African American characters become criminals, and that the rest of them become reformed. Because that's more realistice.
I never said that. That is a straw man argument. The dilemma remains that such things are unfortunate stereotypes which exist in a lot of fiction. Such things should be approached very carefully.

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At least this time, you know the circumstances behind it, something you moaned about at the beginning of the season, only to find out it was all for nothing. I see history repeating itself later on.
On this you are right; this time if Kaldur went bad it would be a definite consequence to Megan abusing her psychic powers willy nilly, as she has for years. I like having reasons for plot developments, sue me.

Quote:
Unknown=/= educated guess based on what you know about a producer's previous work and how they operate. 95% of the time Greg Weisman usually puts something like Wally being "shown up" by Impulse and Flash, in there for a reason. Hell they wrote something as obscure as Wally tripping infront of Artemis when he first meets her to mean something in the long run. And your telling me THAT subplot in Bloodlines won't matter in the long run? I think Wally's time to shine will be coming later in the season. Sure that might not be your thing, you know WAITING. But it's not like he needs to be back on the team so badly that NOT being there is killing his characterization.
Having two characters who are supposed to be romantic with each other literally fall for each other, or one of them doing so, is about as old as stage productions. And that was still a dynamic which seemed better after Weisman explained it in a blog than it seemed on screen sometimes.

"BLOODLINES" was there to introduce Impulse, because he was important to the overall Invasion plot in regards to his time travel knowledge and mission. He links up to Blue Beetle and the Reach, who are turning into heavies as the season winds on. Wally was there because you needed a quick point of reference in terms of his powers and also so that the entire "Flash family" could be there. Right now I see Impulse as having replaced Wally physically on the team, but Wally still has that dynamic with the founders which is why he is there as support for Artemis or Nightwing. You couldn't do that with Bart. You can't have a scene like "DARKEST" with Bart. But on the other hand, Bart is better at the speed stuff for the missions.

Do I think Wally will suit up again? Of course. Do I think he'll actually accomplish anything of relevance to the main plot? No. But if he keeps getting meaty dialogue scenes that's fine up to a point.

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Wally and Roy weren't mentioned in Salvage's loglines either.
Roy (both of them) have actually gotten a fair amount of development and action this season. Wally hasn't.

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Old 12-02-2012, 02:55 AM   #750
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

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But it's not naivety. It's stupidity. He's well aware that things don't go exactly as they want as Kaldur was partly responsible for the kroloteans deaths in "Alienated" and the shuttle wasn't supposed to get destroyed in "Depths". Not to mention sending two people behind enemy lines - with one of them's entire cover relying on a charm necklace that any magic villain could sense - is extremely risky. If he truly believed that the hardest part was over then I don't see how he's equipped to lead something like this.

So I have to believe he was just offering Wally false assurance, and that's stupidity in itself. There's something about knowing your audience and it was clear that Wally wasn't going to be up for his BS given the situation. Then again, he's never really shown all that much respect for Wally, so maybe he did expect him to go along with it.
Offering false assurance isn't exactly stupidity; sometimes people are less than honest because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings or stress them more than they're already stressed. That doesn't mean that strategy always works.

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It could have been fun! But seriously, there's a very real possibility that Dick would have had to consider that option if he wanted to let Wally think that Kaldur killed Artemis for real, right?
Considering this show rarely treats Wally as a serious threat to anyone, I doubt it. Nightwing thought Wally was angry because his trophy collection got nuked in "DARKEST", completely misreading his concern. Much like Batman, Nightwing hasn't formed as many emotion connections to as many people as Wally has, so maybe he genuinely doesn't understanding worrying for someone you love anymore. There's a saying, "men often become their fathers". Nightwing's become more like Batman than he realizes, and maybe is a little worse since he's not honest with himself about it.

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But that's my point. "Bloodlines" established that while Wally doesn't want to get back into the hero life, he's still willing to suit up if he feels it's an emergency and feels needed. I'd consider his cousin getting kidnapped and tortured such a situation, especially since he can't completely trust Dick to rescue him as he and Kaldur were responsible for Bart getting captured to begin with. So I see Wally not taking part in that mission as out of character and chalking it up as the show just doesn't care to use him.
Impulse was already in the episode, the show can't have more than two speedsters in more than one episode a season.

I don't disagree with you, but by this point I have gotten used to it. This season seems to feel Wally is best for support dialogue scenes. They're good scenes, at least.

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But that's not really that much different than Wally in "YJ", is it? His flirting was mocked and played for laughs at every turn in the first season.
The difference is that in "YJ", Wally developed a relationship over a season with a member of the regular cast who was a strong and entertaining heroine. In "JLU" he essentially hooks up with a guest character who starts out her appearance falling all over for him. An entire episode fawning over Fire is essentially window dressing. Artemis hung around enough to see something worth liking, even loving in Wally over time.

The best thing Wally's done in this series is be the boyfriend to an awesome heroine. Which isn't exactly the worst place to be in a superhero adventure series. Unless you expect him to be more than Ron Stoppable.

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