Young Justice Cartoon - Part 7

[Primal Slayer]

I think it would work if they killed off Hal since we dont need 4 earth GLs in this universe.

[Eklypze]

What does it matter since we hardly ever see Hal and we've never seen Guy, that I recall off hand. Maybe once? Can't remember, anyways, I think it'd be cool. Kyle and Jason Todd are just two characters whose stories should be touched upon at some point. I'd like some Starfire too to be honest, she'd fit right in this season especially with the xenophobe theme

[Gelc22]

Originally Posted by cleverusername8

It's good that they included him because Dick needs a successor if he's not going to be Robin, but they really should do more with him AND Barbara.

Why should they do more with them specifically? Because they just happen to be members of the Bat-fam? The truth is that they're secondary characters and are being handled like every other secondary character is. The core five (Dick/Kaldur/Conner/M'gann/Artemis) and the two newbies (Impulse/Blue Beetle) will get the majority of the focus as they are the ones that are moving the plot of the season along. Everyone else has to wait for the plot to find them. Look at Wally for example. He was a main character since the first episode of the series and is now relegated to making a cameo every other episode since he no longer matters to the plot.

The only exception to all this is Roy Harper (x2), but those were plots left over from the first season that needed closure. Clone!Roy found the original Speedy and got his life in order for Lian. That arc appears to be done. We had to see how original Roy would deal with everything and we did in "Satisfaction". He can go join the group of secondary characters now. The show struggled at times handling six characters in Season One with twenty-six episodes. Now they have even more characters and six fewer episodes. And Tim's getting at least two episodes where he's the leader of a squad. That's pretty dang good when you consider that he's a secondary character.

[MarvelKnight]

I miss this show.

[cleverusername8]

Originally Posted by Gelc22

Why should they do more with them specifically? Because they just happen to be members of the Bat-fam? The truth is that they're secondary characters and are being handled like every other secondary character is. The core five (Dick/Kaldur/Conner/M'gann/Artemis) and the two newbies (Impulse/Blue Beetle) will get the majority of the focus as they are the ones that are moving the plot of the season along. Everyone else has to wait for the plot to find them. Look at Wally for example. He was a main character since the first episode of the series and is now relegated to making a cameo every other episode since he no longer matters to the plot.

The only exception to all this is Roy Harper (x2), but those were plots left over from the first season that needed closure. Clone!Roy found the original Speedy and got his life in order for Lian. That arc appears to be done. We had to see how original Roy would deal with everything and we did in "Satisfaction". He can go join the group of secondary characters now. The show struggled at times handling six characters in Season One with twenty-six episodes. Now they have even more characters and six fewer episodes. And Tim's getting at least two episodes where he's the leader of a squad. That's pretty dang good when you consider that he's a secondary character.

I originally said this because I think it's dumb that they were included in the cast but then ignored like any other character. I feel that if they are going to include the Bat family, they'd better have some sort of purpose to the story to really be worth it because they more so than some of the less involved characters like Mal Duncan and Lagoon Boy don't deserve to be benchwarmers as far as story involvement.

But what you are saying is 100% true and I've said that before when talking about the show with others. They included the Bat family who really need to be useful if they'll be included at all, but on the other hand, the main plot of the Invasion doesn't seem to leave much room for them to become a focus. The original team with the addition of Impulse and Blue are now really the only characters that matter on the Team plotwise. Then those six outlaws from the League but besides them, the League doesn't seem very essential either. This is disappointing but in now way reduces my enjoyment of the show. It's really preference.

But for the reasons listed above, I've found myself feeling very much so against adding Starfire, Static, Raven, and the other potential new additions that viewers are crying out for. Yes, we saw Static as one of the "meta-gene possessors" on the Reach ship and know that we'll see him with powers pretty soon, but I can't see any real significance for him in the story other than he has a meta gene that has been manipulated by the Reach to give him powers. Then Jaime's friend Tyler could potentially become the new Longshadow (like the guy from Superfriends?) since he was taken by the Reach as well but same goes for him, I see no use in the plot.

Starfire would undoubtedly be used as a new love interest for Nightwing but I think that would throw a lot of things out of whack especially with Nightwing's new detached-ness of sorts and his problems that we've been following. The timing would be awful to bring a character like Star in if she really will be used for that purpose. If not, then she has the same problem as Static and Ty.

But one exception to this rule is Deathstroke. Ponytail aside, I'm pretty stoked that he's joining the cast even if he doesn't end up relating to the Reach storyline in any way I know that's hypocritical but I'll openly admit it

[Gelc22]

Originally Posted by cleverusername8

I originally said this because I think it's dumb that they were included in the cast but then ignored like any other character. I feel that if they are going to include the Bat family, they'd better have some sort of purpose to the story to really be worth it because they more so than some of the less involved characters like Mal Duncan and Lagoon Boy don't deserve to be benchwarmers as far as story involvement.

I guess I just don't get the logic behind "they are members of the Bat-Fam and therefore deserve special treatment" since this isn't a show centered around Batman. I get that they're extremely popular, but if the show was only concerned with focusing on popular characters, then I'm not sure they'd use characters like Artemis and Miss Martian in the first place. Or created Kaldur instead of just using Garth as Aqualad. And it's not like they're ignoring the Bat-Fam as Dick is still a main character.

And Tim could possibly be built up as the next leader of the Team. There's the fact that he's (apparently) getting two episodes where him in a leadership role is being highlighted. Not to mention that his bio claims he's a natural leader. Add to the fact that with the way this season is going, at least four of the original six might not be part of the Team if Season Three happened. Right now, I don't see how Dick and Kaldur could be part of the team after everything. Wally is either going to become the Flash, stay retired, or be killed. And Artemis would probably move on in some fashion as well. Not saying we won't still see them, but they might not be main characters anymore. That could possibly open up time for Tim, Cassie, and whoever else (Arrowette?) they want to bring in. So just because Tim is starting off as a secondary character doesn't mean he can't become a lead character in the future. The question is if the series will survive past this season.

Starfire would undoubtedly be used as a new love interest for Nightwing but I think that would throw a lot of things out of whack especially with Nightwing's new detached-ness of sorts and his problems that we've been following. The timing would be awful to bring a character like Star in if she really will be used for that purpose.

I wouldn't automatically assume Starfire would be a love interest for Nightwing just because of what happened in the comics and elsewhere. The show has pretty much done its own thing when it comes to the relationships on the team, hasn't it? I believe we've had Wally/Artemis, Conner/M'gann, La'gaan/M'gann, Kaldur/Rocket, Dick/Zatanna, and Dick/Rocket as far as confirmed relationships that happened between team members. How many of those are just a Young Justice thing (serious question)? Not saying they won't go that way, but I wouldn't assume it will if she shows up. And Weisman mentioned in an interview that Starfire in on the list for potential characters for a third season - which would mean that Nightwing could be mostly over his issues by then (since there'd be another timeskip).

[Eklypze]

I totally just now noticed what happened with Beast Boy and his mom. So sad. Just realized M'gann's blood gave him his powers too. Don't know how I missed that the first go around

[Jordacar]

I'm amazed at how many seemingly crucial moments happen offscreen. Then again, that's what it's like reading the comics most of the time.

Speaking of which, I'm trying to compile a list of comic stories and other media that can help give some background and context to YJ's story; like if someone hadn't really read any comics and didn't know Ra's from Vandal, but was interested in learning more about all the easter eggs on the show.

To make it interesting, I'd rule out most of the Timm-verse continuity.

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Originally Posted by Jordacar

I'm amazed at how many seemingly crucial moments happen offscreen. Then again, that's what it's like reading the comics most of the time.

Speaking of which, I'm trying to compile a list of comic stories and other media that can help give some background and context to YJ's story; like if someone hadn't really read any comics and didn't know Ra's from Vandal, but was interested in learning more about all the easter eggs on the show.

To make it interesting, I'd rule out most of the Timm-verse continuity.

For starts, get the show's comic book tie-in. It provides some backstory for the show itself, and has some fun bonus stories from the show. Also, it will end at issue 25, so there's no need to worry about catching up.

The original YJ comics are also recommended, since the show does take quite a few things from them. They do have a completely different, more lighthearted tone, though. Particularly, the "World Without Grown-Ups" story was even adapted in the show, in a way.

If you want more info on Blue Beetle and the Reach, there's also the original Gieffen/Rogers run of Blue Beetle.

Beyond that, I'll leave it to others more knowledgeable of specific issue numbers and such.

[Warhammer]

Everytime I see this thread get bumped, I keep expecting to see official news of cancellation.

[Midnight Black]

Originally Posted by Eklypze

Do you guys think it would work in this universe if they introduced a younger Kyle Rayner? I was just thinking about how almost every main leauger has at least one protege except for any Green Lanterns and I think it could be cool to see somebody younger getting a ring. I dunno, just thinking out loud really

I don't think having Kyle is a bad idea. In fact I like the idea of having a younger late teens early 20s Kyle come in and be apart of young justice. He could be an art student or graphic designer that stumbles upon the ring some how.

Are both Hal and John off world with the other JL members trying to figure out what happened or is it just John?

I think having Hal and John take turns patrolling Earth and different sectors, Guy guarding a different galaxy other than Earth, and Kyle a trainee that just went through the academy and trained under Kilowogg and has returned to earth in the other GL's absence is a great idea.

Having him apart of YJ instead of as an older adult 30s/40s would be interesting especially given his background.

[Jordacar]

Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet

For starts, get the show's comic book tie-in. It provides some backstory for the show itself, and has some fun bonus stories from the show. Also, it will end at issue 25, so there's no need to worry about catching up.

The original YJ comics are also recommended, since the show does take quite a few things from them. They do have a completely different, more lighthearted tone, though. Particularly, the "World Without Grown-Ups" story was even adapted in the show, in a way.

If you want more info on Blue Beetle and the Reach, there's also the original Gieffen/Rogers run of Blue Beetle.

Beyond that, I'll leave it to others more knowledgeable of specific issue numbers and such.

Nice, a good start. I know they drop several references to the Appalaxian invasion, so JLA: Year One is a must. Also I'd say the Wonder Woman DTV fits in nicely, along with at least some of the shorts from the Superman/Shazam DTV. And I haven't seen anything so far on Green Lantern: TAS that contradicts YJ, so that's a possibility.

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Originally Posted by Jordacar

Nice, a good start. I know they drop several references to the Appalaxian invasion, so JLA: Year One is a must. Also I'd say the Wonder Woman DTV fits in nicely, along with at least some of the shorts from the Superman/Shazam DTV. And I haven't seen anything so far on Green Lantern: TAS that contradicts YJ, so that's a possibility.

Wait, do you mean those being in continuity with the show? Or just as reference pieces? If the latter, then yes, but if the former, the only things in-canon with the show are the comic tie-in and the upcoming video game.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Yeah, Young Justice... both the show and the comic... is it's own self contained thing.

[Eklypze]

I've always thought that's kind of dumb because I can't really think of any events in YJ that directly contradict anything in JLU or JL or am I wrong here?

[Jordacar]

Well for one thing there's Robin, who on TAS was college age long before Batman even met the League. Then there are the Green Lanterns and the Flashes who are presented in a completely different order. Also characters like Amazo, Zatanna, Hugo Strange and various others with completely different characterizations.

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Not to mention completely different production crews in charge of the shows.

[Eklypze]

Yea. I remember some of those now. Between the shows cartoons movies and comics I get most details confused from time to time.

[cleverusername8]

Originally Posted by Eklypze

I totally just now noticed what happened with Beast Boy and his mom. So sad. Just realized M'gann's blood gave him his powers too. Don't know how I missed that the first go around

I knew this was what was going to happen after Gar's accident in his episode in Season 1. But what I don't understand is how M'Gann's blood turned him green if she's a white Martian :/ And why specifically animals? I guess thst's just what he chooses to turn into but theoretically he could shape shift into anything just like his "sister"?

Whatever, I like their dynamic in the show. Truthfully, I get the feeling that he (and of course Superboy deep down) are the only two teammates she really cares about besides Artemis who really isn't on the team anymore. I cannot truthfully believe that she really cares for Lagaan. He is 100% for sparking jealousy. But she legitimately cares for BB and it's kind of adorable

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Originally Posted by cleverusername8

I knew this was what was going to happen after Gar's accident in his episode in Season 1. But what I don't understand is how M'Gann's blood turned him green if she's a white Martian :/ And why specifically animals? I guess thst's just what he chooses to turn into but theoretically he could shape shift into anything just like his "sister"?

When she's transferring blood, you can see green pigments in it. She was focused on being a Green Martian, so the human DNA she gave to Garfield was a bit imperfect.

The animals thing has not been explained so far, though.

[Midnight Black]

So does anyone think that some of the YJ will go rogue after this?

[nygma619]

Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet

Wait, do you mean those being in continuity with the show? Or just as reference pieces? If the latter, then yes, but if the former, the only things in-canon with the show are the comic tie-in and the upcoming video game.

Greg also thinks the Green Arrow short is in canon with Earth 16, but he hasn't figured out when exactly.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Young Justice: Invasion returns on January 5th 2013...

Cartoon Network has confirmed the January 5th, 2013 return of the DC Nation programming block. With the return of the block comes new episodes of Green Lantern: The Animated Series, Young Justice, and new DC Nation animated shorts. A representative for Cartoon Network told The World’s Finest the network is expected to issue a press release about the return of the programming block.

Young Justice: Invasion
Saturday, January 5th, 2013 at 10:30am (ET/ PT) – “Before the Dawn”
On a covert mission to rescue some of its own, The Team, Blue Beetle and Miss Martian uncover shocking secrets… and devastating truths!

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/20...uary-5th-2013/

[Jordacar]

How I wish they would marathon the show from the beginning. Really give those wannabe viewers a leg up in the world. Especially the ones with TiVo.

[nygma619]

Originally Posted by Dread

Depends on how sharp one is.

That doesn't mean a person isn't infalllable.

I see it as quite a security risk which endangers everyone, and I don't think Wally caved on that.

How is telling a woman confined to a wheel chair any more endangering than Wally knowing?

What does Wally gain by spilling such an important secret to her in the middle of the mission?

How about salvaging Artemis's relationship with her mother (including his), by telling her she's alive considering she's at such a low point, all because of something that's a lie. You don't think she wouldn't be peeved about Artemis coming back alive later? Sure she probably would be mad about not being told, but I think it's still better than waiting till later.

I don't know, personally I think it's more than in character for Wally to tell her. At least I think he would justify that action with what I wrote above.

So is he a lead or not? And if certain characters get more screen time than your leads, are they not also leads?

It depends on context. Is their screen time terribly important? Quality, not quantity my friend.

Aside for "COLDHEARTED", the show's producers/writers rarely share that same passion for resolving Wally's stuff.

Amount of screen time=the amount of passion the producers/writers have for a character?

Usually it is best to have a more even hand developing stuff all along, rather than abandoning certain things and bringing them up only when convenient.

Usually, but just because something gets put on the back burner (and sometimes for in character reasons), DOESN'T necessarily mean that the producers/writers forgot, or that they screwed up.

Hasn't anybody ever heard of context or circumstance?

Overall, I don't think Barry is biting it this season and if Wally does become the Flash it will likely be after another time jump into Season 3.

Personally I see Barry dying as enough of an iconic moment that they would include it.

Because ending every post with "we'll see" gets stale.

So does assuming the worst of a character every time just because something isn't portrayed to your satisfaction.

Out of 10 episodes he had been featured in 4 of them, and was the primary villain in the episode which, at one point, could have been the season finale but wasn't at an 11th hour stage of production. He has essentially replaced Sportsmaster as the "dragon" to the Light this season, which is hardly an easy feat.

I can count on one hand the number of times Sportsmaster made appearances in season 1. 5 out of 26, that's 19% of the episodes. That's less than Black Beetle's 40% of the episodes. Did that stop Sportsmaster from leaving any impact? No, again quality not quantity is key.

That is not the same as guest appearances by Lobo or Despero aand you know it.

I never said it was, and how do you know Despero is only going to be a guest appearance?

This season has struggled to focus evenly on characters since it has a swarm of new ones rising to the fore.

How does a bunch of new supporting characters mean they lost focus with the leads (besides the amount of screen time they get?)

Captain Marvel and Red Tornado used to matter and now essentially don't.

How do you know they might not somewhere down the road? They are already established characters, so them coming back is easier since you don't have to spend time introducing them again. FYI, Greg said they recasted Billy Batson's voice, because of the age change, so expect to see Captain Marvel later this season.

Which may be fine if I was a hardcore DC fan who got off on endless and aimless cameos, like I am for Marvel characters, but sadly I am not.

I'm hardly a hardcore DC fan either, but even I don't see it as a problem. Greg's thing besides staying close to the core truth of characters (as he perceives anyways) is world building. And you can't do that without some people who simply exist as cameos and some who exist as more important at certain moments in time.

Watching this show has been an EXERCISE in patience.

You know what else is an exercise in patience? Losing weight. But sometimes that patience is rewarded, maybe not right away, but it doesn't mean Greg has forgotten someone just because they don't appear for a certain number of episodes. At least that's been my experience in watching ALL THE SHOWS Greg Weisman has produced from beginning to end.

Two seasons across 4 different years.

That's Greg and Brandon's fault HOW?

I was hardly the only person who felt the portrayal of that dynamic had some bumps until around "INSECURITY".

There were also people who did "get it" before that. Hell there are SOME people who didn't get it after that. And while my perception MIGHT BE different than what Greg had in mind (at least in some areas), I don't think that means they were portrayed wrong.

Since "BLOODLINES", the only things to arise in regards to Wally's screen time is worrying about Artemis, which leads to him criticizing Nightwing's handling of the team. There's no mention of any insecurity, any desire to live up to the Flash, or even any desire to go out and DO something but complain.

How do you know it wouldn't become an issue later in something like say season 3 when he allegedly becomes Flash? Tula didn't become a terribly big issue for Kaldur in season 1, it wasn't until season 2 that his relationship with her played a factor with him. That wouldn't have been as big a deal UNLESS they laid the pipe for that back in season 1.

He's just worried about Artemis, because she's awesome.

You do realize what you just typed makes no sense, right? He's worried about her because she is metaphorically tiptoeing in a sleeping lions den.

I've learned with this show that if I held my breath in regards to certain things, I'd have died of suffocation long ago.

I would've hated to see what your reactions to Gargoyles avalon world tour arc were back then. Well okay that's not entirely fair because it took me a summers re watch of that series last year to appreciate that more (when I was an adult) compared to when I was a child I found myself wondering "why aren't Goliath and Elisa back in New York City where they belong?".

My perception is that Greg tends to write characters in produced shows of his with long term planning and what he thinks they would do and how to present the core truth of them as interestingly as possible. And for the most part I think his work on produced shows of his back that up.

Of course that's just MY perception.