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Old 08-26-2012, 04:17 PM   #51
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Batman and Black Canary is dumb because they have zero chemistry, very little in common, almost no real interaction between the two of them besides being casual professional acquaintances, the've never even seemed to like each other all that much when they have interacted, and both of them have much better developed and more genuine established relationships with other characters.

The Black Canary/Barbara Gordon pairing makes way more sense as an alternative to Green Arrow.
What does Bruce Wayne have in common with a former street hooker turned Cat burglar or a the daughter of a Psychopathic World-Dominating maniac, who also is a murderer herself???

And yet none of you have no problem with that.....Batman's sense of justice would seem to cut against that grain.....He's got more in common with Dinah, who's a serious Martial artist and has ties with his closet allies like Barbera Gordon and Dick Grayson. Didn't she take on Lady Shiva?? She's also a a crimefighter...not a thief or an assassin cult priestess.

I just don't see your reason unless it's that same ol' same ol' you mentioned........ " both of them have much better developed and more genuine established relationships".

Well this is a New Universe....right? New rules apply.......Everything is turned on its head. Former manly heroes are now gay. Flash is not married to Iris but dating some other chick.....Starfire is sexing up 2 guys on the same team.....Lois is bonin' old friends not Clark.....Superman finally sees Wonder Woman as a lover.

No relationship or even "lifestyle" is safe from revision, it seems.


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Old 08-26-2012, 04:59 PM   #52
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What does Bruce Wayne have in common with a former street hooker turned Cat burglar or a the daughter of a Psychopathic World-Dominating maniac, who also is a murderer herself???
1: The hooker thing is stupid.

2: You're focusing on one aspect of my argument instead of the whole thing. You haven't really addressed any of the other elements, like their complete lack of chemistry and the fact that they often don't even seem to like each other that much and have certainly never been close.

3: I'd wager that Batman has more in common in Catwoman than he does with Black Canary. They both had rough childhood, have suffered traumas, have complicated and often antagonistic relationships with authority, and they both intentionally place themselves outside of normal social structures, which leaves them fairly isolated. They can relate to each other a lot, and yet are different enough that they'd bring different things out in each other. It makes sense that they would form an emotional bond.

Talia's another thing, but I'd argue that the chemistry between the two of them absolutely trumps having things in common. That's why I listed a whole bunch of things instead of just one. They're all very important and one can make up for others if it's present enough.

Even then, it's pretty clear to see where the attraction comes from. In a lot of ways, Bruce is a lot like Ra's. They're both driven, highly moralistic men with strong convictions. But Bruce is a lot less cold than Ra's, he has a lot more compassion and his goals are less inherently destructive. It makes sense that Talia would see, in Bruce, the kinder, gentler love she wishes she had from her father. In turn, Bruce sees the good and moral conflict in Talia, sees her as largely being a victim of her father's manipulations, and his her complex compels him to try and save her.

Ultimately, I think their relationship is much less healthy than Bruce and Selina's. But it's interesting, which is why I like to see it as long as it's not dragged out or the writers don't forget how messed up it is.

Bruce and Dinah wouldn't have either. They don't have enough in common to build a healthy emotional bond like Selina and Bruce could, and they wouldn't have enough spice to be fun to read about like Talia and Bruce.

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And yet none of you have no problem with that.....Batman's sense of justice would seem to cut against that grain.....He's got more in common with Dinah, who's a serious Martial artist and has ties with his closet allies like Barbera Gordon and Dick Grayson.
That stuff is all work related, though. They're both trained fighters, they both fight crime, they have a lot of co-workers in common. That does not a relationship make.

Batman may have a problem with Selina and Talia's lifestyles, but he has a lot more reason to be attracted to them. An in Talia's case, it's part of the reason he is attracted to her, as I mentioned.

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I just don't see your reason unless it's that same ol' same ol' you mentioned........ " both of them have much better developed and more genuine established relationships".
That's a perfectly good reason to be against it, I think. They both have established relationships that are much more interesting and make more sense. We should stick with those.

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Well this is a New Universe....right? New rules apply.......Everything is turned on its head. Former manly heroes are now gay. Flash is not married to Iris but dating some other chick.....Starfire is sexing up 2 guys on the same team.....Lois is bonin' old friends not Clark.....Superman finally sees Wonder Woman as a lover.

No relationship or even "lifestyle" is safe from revision, it seems.
1: Being manly and being gay are not mutually exclusive. In fact the ancient greeks believed homosexual relationships between men to be the height of masculinity.

2: Most of this changes are really dumb.

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Old 08-26-2012, 05:05 PM   #53
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Oh yeah, and as for the thread topic, Superman and Wonder Woman shouldn't be a couple. It's hella gimmicky and based primarily on the fact that that they're both really jacked.

Superman should be with Lois, and honestly I've never been that interested in any of Wonder Woman's love interests and I think she works better single.

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Old 08-26-2012, 05:25 PM   #54
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Everyone who is for this crap, and it's a rare few, only care about the physical. It's sad how no one cares about the psychological or emotional aspect.

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Old 08-26-2012, 07:08 PM   #55
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And apparently, he STILL thinks its a great idea:


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Old 08-26-2012, 07:53 PM   #56
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[QUOTE]
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1: The hooker thing is stupid.
Stupid how? Bruce was born a rich kid in a world totally different than Selina's.
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2: You're focusing on one aspect of my argument instead of the whole thing. You haven't really addressed any of the other elements, like their complete lack of chemistry and the fact that they often don't even seem to like each other that much and have certainly never been close.
I think I've the whole issue in hand....you using words like "chemistry"....a kinda nebulous term that no one can get a grip on. Chemistry is different from relationship to relationship. You think if you spent more time will someone, chemistry could develop?? Of course it could. All it takes is a writer with some imagination. This is not a "foreign" idea to DC. They've just never pulled the trigger.

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3: I'd wager that Batman has more in common in Catwoman than he does with Black Canary. They both had rough childhood, have suffered traumas, have complicated and often antagonistic relationships with authority, and they both intentionally place themselves outside of normal social structures, which leaves them fairly isolated. They can relate to each other a lot, and yet are different enough that they'd bring different things out in each other. It makes sense that they would form an emotional bond.
Since when does it take traumatic childhoods to bring the spice? Opposites do attract, ya know. She could be the very thing that he needs to keep him sane. How's a thief and and assassin gonna do that?

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Talia's another thing, but I'd argue that the chemistry between the two of them absolutely trumps having things in common. That's why I listed a whole bunch of things instead of just one. They're all very important and one can make up for others if it's present enough.

Even then, it's pretty clear to see where the attraction comes from. In a lot of ways, Bruce is a lot like Ra's. They're both driven, highly moralistic men with strong convictions. But Bruce is a lot less cold than Ra's, he has a lot more compassion and his goals are less inherently destructive. It makes sense that Talia would see, in Bruce, the kinder, gentler love she wishes she had from her father. In turn, Bruce sees the good and moral conflict in Talia, sees her as largely being a victim of her father's manipulations, and his her complex compels him to try and save her.
I can get your point on how Talia is attracted to Bruce. I just cant see how he could be attracted to her (besides her being smokin' hot). But Talia and Ras are against everything he trained his life to protect. They are both murderers......

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Ultimately, I think their relationship is much less healthy than Bruce and Selina's. But it's interesting, which is why I like to see it as long as it's not dragged out or the writers don't forget how messed up it is.
Femme Fatales are always "intriguing"......But they are never lasting. And never healthy.

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Bruce and Dinah wouldn't have either. They don't have enough in common to build a healthy emotional bond like Selina and Bruce could, and they wouldn't have enough spice to be fun to read about like Talia and Bruce.
They have a lot in common. He could even make her a better crimefighter and hone her detective skills. They fight for the same things.

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That stuff is all work related, though. They're both trained fighters, they both fight crime, they have a lot of co-workers in common. That does not a relationship make.
Oh pleeeez.....that's where the best and healthiest relationships start.....co-workers......friends in common........same goals......Why should Bruce be any different??

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Batman may have a problem with Selina and Talia's lifestyles, but he has a lot more reason to be attracted to them. An in Talia's case, it's part of the reason he is attracted to her, as I mentioned.
Besides both of them being smokin' hot, they are both into everything Batman has sworn to fight.

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That's a perfectly good reason to be against it, I think. They both have established relationships that are much more interesting and make more sense. We should stick with those.
Quote from The Question:
For all the reasons I named, they make no sense.

Being manly and being gay are not mutually exclusive. In fact the ancient greeks believed homosexual relationships between men to be the height of masculinity.

2: Most of this changes are really dumb.
____________________________________________

1. We can agree to disagree on that one. And we see how the Grecian Empire turned out.

2. I agree totally


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Old 08-26-2012, 08:26 PM   #57
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Stupid how? Bruce was born a rich kid in a world totally different than Selina's.
It's stupid because it sexualizes her in a really shallow and unnecessary way, and is based entirely on the mentality of "Bullwhip = BDSM= Sex."

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I think I've the whole issue in hand....you using words like "chemistry"....a kinda nebulous term that no one can get a grip on. Chemistry is different from relationship to relationship. You think if you spent more time will someone, chemistry could develop?? Of course it could. All it takes is a writer with some imagination. This is not a "foreign" idea to DC. They've just never pulled the trigger.
It's also something that's very difficult to create intentionally. Most quality romantic relationships in long running series happen organically, and often not entirely intentionally, building off of how characters end up interacting. Batman and Black Canary have nothing that suggests they'd have any kind of natural spark, which leads me to believe that it would be extremely difficult for a writer to make that relationship happen in a way that didn't feel empty or forced.

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Since when does it take traumatic childhoods to bring the spice? Opposites do attract, ya know. She could be the very thing that he needs to keep him sane. How's a thief and and assassin gonna do that?
1: I wasn't talking about spice when I brought up Catwoman, I was bringing up an emotional connection. There's a very important difference. The shared trauma is part of why the connect, because each can understand and relate to what the other has gone through in a way that other people can't necessarily. That, coupled with the general similarity of their very lonely lifestyles, gives them a lot of reason to feel a kinship and a closeness with one another.

2: You seem to be very selective about when similarity is and is not important. You say opposites attract when talking about backstory, but then talk about how Batman and Black Canary are perfect for each other because they're both trained fighters who solve mysteries. Why couldn't opposites attract in, say, profession? Batman's a crime fighter and Catwoman is a thief.



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I can get your point on how Talia is attracted to Bruce. I just cant see how he could be attracted to her (besides her being smokin' hot). But Talia and Ras are against everything he trained his life to protect. They are both murderers......
Being attracted to someone isn't hyper logical. If it were, Romeo and Juliet wouldn't have been a thing.

Bruce is attracted to Talia for the very reasons I mentioned: He sees the good in her, he sees her moral conflict, and he wants, subconsciously, to "save" her. That, coupled with her attraction to him, and the fact that yes, she's easy on the eyes, is where that attraction comes from. It's kind of shallow and definitely unhealthy but it's certainly there and makes sense.

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Femme Fatales are always "intriguing"......Both they are never lasting. And never healthy.
That's kind of a blanket statement, and one I don't think really fits with Catwoman. What would be unhealthy about a relationship with her, exactly?

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They have a lot in common. He could even make her a better crimefighter and hone her detective skills. They fight for the same things.
Those aren't the kind of similarities that healthy romantic relationships are built upon. Those are entirely professional similarities. They have the same job, they know a lot of the same people. That's it. A person wouldn't marry their karate instructor simply because he could teach her how to be a better fighter. That would the ludicrous.

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Oh pleeeez.....that's where the best and healthiest relationships start.....co-workers......friends in common........same goals......Why should Bruce be any different??
That's how a lot of relationships start because that's how a lot of people meet each other. That doesn't mean that's the basis of the relationship.

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Besides both of them being smokin' hot, they are both into everything Batman has sworn to fight.
Catwoman certainly isn't. I mean, she's a thief, but she only ever targets rich people who can afford the loss and she never harms innocent people. In fact, she helps them quite often. Batman may not approve of her lifestyle, but that's out of more of a vague sense of disappointment than anything else. That's still of stumbling block for them, but they have a lot of reasons besides that to be attracted to each other and to be close with one another.

Talia's a different story, because she and Bruce are way more messed up, but I never argued they should get married or anything, their relationship is completely doomed to failure, but it's way more interesting to read about that Batman/Black Canary would be, which is why I think it has more value.

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We can agree to disagree on that one. And we see how the Grecian Empire turned out.
They were conquered by the Romans, who held the exact same views on sexuality.

There is zero evidence that the Grecian or Roman views of sexuality in any way contributed to the collapse of either civilization.

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Old 08-26-2012, 08:56 PM   #58
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I honestly can't remember what movie or show it was (could be Seinfeld, the Drew Carey Show, a Kevin Smith movie, can't remember), maybe someone can help me, but they had this debate on a show/movie about whether Superman should marry Lois Lane or Wonder Woman, the main crux of the argument for the one guy was that "only Wonder Woman's womb could withstand the Super fetus".

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Old 08-26-2012, 08:58 PM   #59
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I honestly can't remember what movie or show it was (could be Seinfeld, the Drew Carey Show, a Kevin Smith movie, can't remember), maybe someone can help me, but they had this debate on a show/movie about whether Superman should marry Lois Lane or Wonder Woman, the main crux of the argument for the one guy was that "only Wonder Woman's womb could withstand the Super fetus".
It was from Mallrats. Brodie called this **** in '95.

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Old 08-26-2012, 09:05 PM   #60
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It was from Mallrats. Brodie called this **** in '95.
Ah, I figured it was a Kevin Smith movie, just not sure which one (since they all discuss comics quite a bit).

I think I thought Seinfeld because George and Jerry had a few discussions about Superman on the show.

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Old 08-27-2012, 08:02 AM   #61
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It's stupid because it sexualizes her in a really shallow and unnecessary way, and is based entirely on the mentality of "Bullwhip = BDSM= Sex."



It's also something that's very difficult to create intentionally. Most quality romantic relationships in long running series happen organically, and often not entirely intentionally, building off of how characters end up interacting. Batman and Black Canary have nothing that suggests they'd have any kind of natural spark, which leads me to believe that it would be extremely difficult for a writer to make that relationship happen in a way that didn't feel empty or forced.



1: I wasn't talking about spice when I brought up Catwoman, I was bringing up an emotional connection. There's a very important difference. The shared trauma is part of why the connect, because each can understand and relate to what the other has gone through in a way that other people can't necessarily. That, coupled with the general similarity of their very lonely lifestyles, gives them a lot of reason to feel a kinship and a closeness with one another.

2: You seem to be very selective about when similarity is and is not important. You say opposites attract when talking about backstory, but then talk about how Batman and Black Canary are perfect for each other because they're both trained fighters who solve mysteries. Why couldn't opposites attract in, say, profession? Batman's a crime fighter and Catwoman is a thief.





Being attracted to someone isn't hyper logical. If it were, Romeo and Juliet wouldn't have been a thing.

Bruce is attracted to Talia for the very reasons I mentioned: He sees the good in her, he sees her moral conflict, and he wants, subconsciously, to "save" her. That, coupled with her attraction to him, and the fact that yes, she's easy on the eyes, is where that attraction comes from. It's kind of shallow and definitely unhealthy but it's certainly there and makes sense.



That's kind of a blanket statement, and one I don't think really fits with Catwoman. What would be unhealthy about a relationship with her, exactly?



Those aren't the kind of similarities that healthy romantic relationships are built upon. Those are entirely professional similarities. They have the same job, they know a lot of the same people. That's it. A person wouldn't marry their karate instructor simply because he could teach her how to be a better fighter. That would the ludicrous.



That's how a lot of relationships start because that's how a lot of people meet each other. That doesn't mean that's the basis of the relationship.



Catwoman certainly isn't. I mean, she's a thief, but she only ever targets rich people who can afford the loss and she never harms innocent people. In fact, she helps them quite often. Batman may not approve of her lifestyle, but that's out of more of a vague sense of disappointment than anything else. That's still of stumbling block for them, but they have a lot of reasons besides that to be attracted to each other and to be close with one another.

Talia's a different story, because she and Bruce are way more messed up, but I never argued they should get married or anything, their relationship is completely doomed to failure, but it's way more interesting to read about that Batman/Black Canary would be, which is why I think it has more value.



They were conquered by the Romans, who held the exact same views on sexuality.

There is zero evidence that the Grecian or Roman views of sexuality in any way contributed to the collapse of either civilization.

Oh well....we'll agree to disagree.....you think your points are valid...I think mine could work too....again....DC history shows that writers toyed with the idea. Just like they toyed with Superman and Diana.

And we see how The Roman Empire ended too.........


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Old 08-27-2012, 08:34 AM   #62
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Do you seriously expect it to be done right?
I do. I mean look at Ultimate Peter Parker and Kitty Pride they were perfectly done and to be honest I preferred him with her than with MJ in that world. I think given that Johns is writing the story the same could be said. I mean look at how he did Conner and Cassie which was also done well.

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Old 08-27-2012, 09:02 AM   #63
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And we see how The Roman Empire ended too.........
In pretty much the same way every large and powerful civilization's reign has ever ended? The same way that every large and powerful civilization's reign will end? (Also, not only does this have nothing to do with the topic, but it doesn't have anything to do with the "gay = not manly" tangent either.)


Superman and Wonder Woman are a bad idea for a couple. Batman and Black Canary are too. Hell, most hero-hero relationships suck.

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Old 08-27-2012, 09:07 AM   #64
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And we see how The Roman Empire ended too.........
As I said, there is zero evidence that their views on sexuality had anything to do with that.

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Old 08-27-2012, 01:55 PM   #65
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Let the hating and praising commence!

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Old 08-27-2012, 02:06 PM   #66
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This pairing exists for the most shallow of reasons. Lois and Clark are a couple. That is and should be an inarguable fact of reality. They were literally made for each other, and writers have spent the better part of 70 years developing them together. Each of them is hard and soft where the other isn't, they're two halves of the same whole.

The only reason Superman and Wonder Woman "make sense" together is that they can have rough sex. First of all, both characters are far less shallow than that, both of them would want a lot more in an actual relationship than just that. And second, you know what? Superman wouldn't have rough sex. He wouldn't want to. That's not him. He'd **** a lady gently.

Now, that being said, I'm not one to be a prude, a casual sexual relationship between the two is all well and good. But at the end of the day, where it counts, it's Lois and Clark, man.

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Old 08-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #67
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I think DC knows that Lois and Clark are endgame. Just because they pair up Supes with WW doesnt mean that they are going to be together forever and get married, have kids and the whole shabang. Right now they all are suppose to be "early" into their careers as heroes. Supes/WW could date for 1-2 years but not be the love of their lives.

Just look at smallville, Clark was dating Lana and had romances with other girls for the first 5 years? They bring in Lois and they dont automatically get together but they do end up getting together and it becomes very obvious that Lois is the love of his life by the end of the series. Basically what is happening in DC right now.

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Old 08-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #68
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I think DC knows that Lois and Clark are endgame. Just because they pair up Supes with WW doesnt mean that they are going to be together forever and get married, have kids and the whole shabang. Right now they all are suppose to be "early" into their careers as heroes. Supes/WW could date for 1-2 years but not be the love of their lives.
Yeah, I guess at the end of the day I'm cool with it. I mean, it does make sense. They're both attractive, they both like each other pretty well, that kind of thing happens. If I were writing Superman or Wonder Woman I probably wouldn't go for it, just because it wouldn't interest me all that much and by the time I got around to Justice League stuff I'd have already developed the Lois and Clark stuff a fair bit, but I'm okay with it so long as it's not permanent.

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Old 08-27-2012, 02:57 PM   #69
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Lol oh geezy, DC made match.com profiles for WW/Superman. They are a fun little read.
http://blog.match.com/2012/08/24/bre...-single-lives/

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Old 08-27-2012, 04:12 PM   #70
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There seems to be an actual lack of understanding of how attraction actually works...Batman and Wonder Woman as a couple makes much more "sense" (romance doesn't make "sense", no matter how you put it. Period.) than any of the other options; but oh, well...


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Old 08-27-2012, 04:37 PM   #71
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Let the hating and praising commence!

I love it!!!!!!!

I hope this is not a joke!! Like in Action # 600

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Old 08-27-2012, 04:44 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Question View Post
This pairing exists for the most shallow of reasons. Lois and Clark are a couple. That is and should be an inarguable fact of reality. They were literally made for each other, and writers have spent the better part of 70 years developing them together. Each of them is hard and soft where the other isn't, they're two halves of the same whole.

The only reason Superman and Wonder Woman "make sense" together is that they can have rough sex. First of all, both characters are far less shallow than that, both of them would want a lot more in an actual relationship than just that. And second, you know what? Superman wouldn't have rough sex. He wouldn't want to. That's not him. He'd **** a lady gently.

Now, that being said, I'm not one to be a prude, a casual sexual relationship between the two is all well and good. But at the end of the day, where it counts, it's Lois and Clark, man.
1. This is a different Clark and a different Diana! We gotta stop judging these characters on who they were in the previous universe before Flashpoint screwed everything up. Even their origins are different.....Clark doesn't even know what a steaming iron or a shirt and tie are, in the New 52....... He dresses like he's homeless. No ma and pa Kent to keep his head right.

Diana is different too......


So who knows what they might like to do this time......

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Old 08-27-2012, 04:46 PM   #73
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Default Re: Superman and Wonder Woman?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
There seems to be an actual lack of understanding of how attraction actually works...Batman and Wonder Woman as a couple makes much more "sense" (romance doesn't make "sense", no matter how you put it. Period.) than any of the other options; but oh, well...


Polux
How so? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you.....just wanna know your reasons....

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Old 08-27-2012, 05:06 PM   #74
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Default Re: Superman and Wonder Woman?

i hope wonder woman dates the entire justice league

and never steve trevor

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Old 08-27-2012, 05:09 PM   #75
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How so? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you.....just wanna know your reasons....
Bruce lives in a constant state of guilt, making himself not only feel responsible for his parents deaths, but for everything bad that happens around him; his unability to have a relationship with someone comes (amongs his many issues) from his fear of putting someone in harm's way, with Diana, he doesn't have to worry about her getting hurt because of him, she's more than capable of taking care of herself; on the other hand, Diana has always had a rebelious streak (her leaving the island to go to "Man's land", i.e.), someone like Superman is the modern depiction of a Greek God, allmighty and invulnerable; someone, let's say, her mother would want for her; that wouldn't impress someone like Diana at all; but someone like Bruce? A mortal man who by sheer will power, determination and training put himself in the same league (and sometimes above) this modern gods? That's what would give this girl the hots; it's quite simple, actually.

Also, her compassion would be inmediatly triggered by Batman's pain and struggle (good girls, wanna "fix" the bad boys, it's just nature), and he would totally recognize in her someone to whom he can not only open up, but trust and rely without a doubt.

It just always made perfect "sense" to me(again, there is no such thing as "sense" when it comes to romance, but attraction - which is the first basis of any romantic relationship - has very simple mechanisms).

Polux

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