Superman and Wonder Woman?

[stillanerd]

Here's a question that I don't think a lot of people are asking but should seriously consider. What does it say about the state of Superman that, in order to be propped up, he has to be in a romantic relationship with Wonder Woman? Better yet, what does it say about the state of Wonder Woman that, in order to be propped up, she has to be in a romantic relationship with Superman? Isn't the whole idea that Superman and especially Wonder Woman were supposed to be able to stand upon their own two feet and NOT be defined by each other?

EDIT: Also, name me one story other than Kingdom Come which showed Superman and Wonder Woman being romantically involved that didn't completely suck.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Here's a question that I don't think a lot of people are asking but should seriously consider. What does it say about the state of Superman that, in order to be propped up, he has to be in a romantic relationship with Wonder Woman? Better yet, what does it say about the state of Wonder Woman that, in order to be propped up, she has to be in a romantic relationship with Superman? Isn't the whole idea that Superman and especially Wonder Woman were supposed to be able to stand upon their own two feet and NOT be defined by each other?

EDIT: Also, name me one story other than Kingdom Come which showed Superman and Wonder Woman being romantically involved that didn't completely suck.

You have no proof of that being the reason....that's purely speculation......

Do you have a quote from the DC Editor saying this??

Hey......how about this for a novel idea......"It's just plain ol' fun to finally explore this!

That's all!

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Polux

Bruce lives in a constant state of guilt, making himself not only feel responsible for his parents deaths, but for everything bad that happens around him; his unability to have a relationship with someone comes (amongs his many issues) from his fear of putting someone in harm's way, with Diana, he doesn't have to worry about her getting hurt because of him, she's more than capable of taking care of herself; on the other hand, Diana has always had a rebelious streak (her leaving the island to go to "Man's land", i.e.), someone like Superman is the modern depiction of a Greek God, allmighty and invulnerable; someone, let's say, her mother would want for her; that wouldn't impress someone like Diana at all; but someone like Bruce? A mortal man who by sheer will power, determination and training put himself in the same league (and sometimes above) this modern gods? That's what would give this girl the hots; it's quite simple, actually.

Also, her compassion would be inmediatly triggered by Batman's pain and struggle (good girls, wanna "fix" the bad boys, it's just nature), and he would totally recognize in her someone to whom he can not only open up, but trust and rely without a doubt.

It just always made perfect "sense" to me(again, there is no such thing as "sense" when it comes to romance, but attraction - which is the first basis of any romantic relationship - has very simple mechanisms).

Polux

okey dokey......that's your take

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You have no proof of that being the reason....that's purely speculation......

Do you have a quote from the DC Editor saying this??

Hey......how about this for a novel idea......"It's just plain ol' fun to finally explore this!

That's all!

Just look at the sales estimates of Superman and Wonder Woman for last month. Superman is selling in the mid 50K range and Wonder Woman is at the 45K range. At least Action Comics is still in the top ten selling at 75K but how much is that due to Grant Morrison being the bigger name draw? And compare those estimates at the start of the New 52 relaunch started less than a year ago when Action Comics was at 180K, Superman was at 110K, and Wonder Woman 76K. And look at how DC and various media outlets are reporting this. The greater emphasis is being put on Superman, not Wonder Woman.

Oh, and I would argue that a Superman and Wonder Woman pairing has been explored numerous times already, and the only difference this time is this is happening "in-continuity." And note every single time Superman and Wonder Woman got together in those stories, including Kingdom Come, the writer had to fundamentally change who the characters were in order for it to work--and for 99% of the time, it didn't.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Just look at the sales estimates of Superman and Wonder Woman for last month. Superman is selling in the mid 50K range and Wonder Woman is at the 45K range. At least Action Comics is still in the top ten selling at 75K but how much is that due to Grant Morrison being the bigger name draw? And compare those estimates at the start of the New 52 relaunch started less than a year ago when Action Comics was at 180K, Superman was at 110K, and Wonder Woman 76K. And look at how DC and various media outlets are reporting this. The greater emphasis is being put on Superman, not Wonder Woman.

Oh, and I would argue that a Superman and Wonder Woman pairing has been explored numerous times already, and the only difference this time is this is happening "in-continuity." And note every single time Superman and Wonder Woman got together in those stories, including Kingdom Come, the writer had to fundamentally change who the characters were in order for it to work--and for 99% of the time, it didn't.

It's hard to keep any book at 100K......writing gets stale.....artist changes etc....

and yes, this being the first time in continuity is suppose to be a big deal!

[Mindreaper21]

I don't like Superman and Wonder Woman being in a relationship, because it seems rather boring to be honest. They are very incompatible characters. I would have liked to see Superman with someone totally different. It would have been much more interesting with an "opposites attract" angle. Superman dating a villain would make for a great story.

Wonder Woman deserves better than this "arm candy" role. A relationship isn't what she needs right now. Wonder Woman's character seriously need to be worked on to elevate her popularity so that we can finally get a decent film. I honestly believe that a really good novel with a new and very challenging villain will give her a big boost.

[Primal Slayer]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Just look at the sales estimates of Superman and Wonder Woman for last month. Superman is selling in the mid 50K range and Wonder Woman is at the 45K range. At least Action Comics is still in the top ten selling at 75K but how much is that due to Grant Morrison being the bigger name draw? And compare those estimates at the start of the New 52 relaunch started less than a year ago when Action Comics was at 180K, Superman was at 110K, and Wonder Woman 76K. And look at how DC and various media outlets are reporting this. The greater emphasis is being put on Superman, not Wonder Woman.

Oh, and I would argue that a Superman and Wonder Woman pairing has been explored numerous times already, and the only difference this time is this is happening "in-continuity." And note every single time Superman and Wonder Woman got together in those stories, including Kingdom Come, the writer had to fundamentally change who the characters were in order for it to work--and for 99% of the time, it didn't.

Just because sales are down doesnt mean this was meant to raise them. This was already in the works when they first decieded to reboot. Not to mention I doubt the relationship will get explored taht much in their solo titles.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Mindreaper21

I don't like Superman and Wonder Woman being in a relationship, because it seems rather boring to be honest. They are very incompatible characters. I would have liked to see Superman with someone totally different. It would have been much more interesting with an "opposites attract" angle. Superman dating a villain would make for a great story.

Wonder Woman deserves better than this "arm candy" role. A relationship isn't what she needs right now. Wonder Woman's character seriously need to be worked on to elevate her popularity so that we can finally get a decent film. I honestly believe that a really good novel with a new and very challenging villain will give her a big boost.

Again...you're judging these two by the old Pre-Flashpoint characters. This Clark has already shown that he's "different" in attitude than the old Clark. Diana is different too...........

We gotta get the old thing outta our heads. This New 52 is a game changer. Why not be open to them being "different".

Alan Scott is very different. Omac is different. Starfire is an even "freer spirit" and The Martian Manhunter is different. But many have no problem with that. Why cant these two have a tranformation too??

Omac is

[Union Jack]

dunno if anyone else has posted this too but..
Lois was always clarks human side,his grounding point.
If he is with wonder woman..what need has he for a human persona anymore?
This new 52 seems (to me) to be getting worse and worse.,i've already stopped reading it as superman isnt as boy scoutish or herioc as the real superman..and thats a shame,to make a hero modern he has to have an attitude...thats what i always loved about supes is he always rose above the rest,a true hero honest and brave and polite!

[Mani-Man]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Again...you're judging these two by the old Pre-Flashpoint characters. This Clark has already shown that he's "different" in attitude than the old Clark. Diana is different too...........

We gotta get the old thing outta our heads. This New 52 is a game changer. Why not be open to them being "different".

Alan Scott is very different. Omac is different. Starfire is an even "freer spirit" and The Martian Manhunter is different. But many have no problem with that. Why cant these two have a tranformation too??

Omac is

And this is were the new 52 completely misses the point.Many people didnt want their characters to be changed,we wanted the new 52 to finish up all old storys ect and start from the scratch with updated origins but with the old status quo.
If it would be like in the new 52 batman i wouldnt have a problem there the key elements are almost unchanged but superman has changed so much and wonder woman too.
I find it very arrogant of dc to think they can change more than 30 years of superman,wonder woman ect. Updating characters yes but especially with wonder woman and superman they changed the whole feeling of the characters.

Originally Posted by Union Jack

dunno if anyone else has posted this too but..
Lois was always clarks human side,his grounding point.
If he is with wonder woman..what need has he for a human persona anymore?
This new 52 seems (to me) to be getting worse and worse.,i've already stopped reading it as superman isnt as boy scoutish or herioc as the real superman..and thats a shame,to make a hero modern he has to have an attitude...thats what i always loved about supes is he always rose above the rest,a true hero honest and brave and polite!

The new 52 should be called "messed up pairings 52" imo,from what ive heard almost every pre new 52 relationship is ruined for a lame new try.The fact that Lois is a non-meta is one of my favourite elements of Superman's relationship with Lois. Having this super-powered god-like alien fall in love with a plain normal human, to me, is far more interesting to watch unfold rather than Superman end up in a super-powered relationship. While watching him with Wonder Woman may be fun for a while, I'll definitely enjoy it a lot more when Clark and Lois inevitably get back together.

What i dont understand is,they already tried superman/wonder woman a couple of times it always failed so why are they try it again and again. Why change the kind of brother/sister relationship that works so well?
The Wonder Woman/Batman pairing on the other hand is the one that intrigues me the most. This relationship is such an interesting study in contrasts. You have the ultimate human in Bruce Wayne who is the very embodiment of the human spirit and potential. On the other hand, you have Wonder Woman who is a creature of myth and magic. It is interesting to see the man of science who has become, quite literally, a god-killer being paired with a woman created by the gods from clay.Why did they tease batman/wonder woman over and over again and dont give it the deserved try?

In the end its another story i miss after the wonder woman and superman books now justice league is done for me to.
in a couple of weeks nobody cares about the whole thing and in a couple of months they will us much more stuff from before the reboot again.
A complete reboot would have worked 10-20 years ago but not anymore,you have people who like the new stuff but ultimately it fails,its not possible to wipe out 50 years of dc history for every character and build them up from new.

[Primal Slayer]

Originally Posted by Union Jack

dunno if anyone else has posted this too but..
Lois was always clarks human side,his grounding point.
If he is with wonder woman..what need has he for a human persona anymore?
This new 52 seems (to me) to be getting worse and worse.,i've already stopped reading it as superman isnt as boy scoutish or herioc as the real superman..and thats a shame,to make a hero modern he has to have an attitude...thats what i always loved about supes is he always rose above the rest,a true hero honest and brave and polite!

You act like he only became "human" because of Lois. He grew up human, not as a superhero.

[Union Jack]

Originally Posted by Primal Slayer

You act like he only became "human" because of Lois. He grew up human, not as a superhero.

very true it was the kents who raised him and made him what he is..but lois was his touchstone.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Primal Slayer

You act like he only became "human" because of Lois. He grew up human, not as a superhero.

Originally Posted by Union Jack

very true it was the kents who raised him and made him what he is..but lois was his touchstone.

Exactly. And forget about the argument over whether or not it was good idea for Superman to be married to Lois Lane. Let's remember that Superman isn't just defined by his powers or his being a superhero--he's also defined by being Clark Kent. That's not only how he connects with the members of his supporting cast, that's also how he connects to the reader. But ever since the new 52 started, DC has been making Clark feel more and more alienated and isolated from the very human race he loves and protects. Getting rid of his marriage to Lois is one thing, since the creators felt more romantic drama could be had with them not being husband and wife, but then they also took the extra step in killing off both his adoptive parents, Jonathan and Martha Kent. Now he's going to be involved in a relationship with a literal demigod. I would say that not only do all of these moves further isolate him from humanity in-story, it also alienates the reader, that there's a sense of detachment towards this character. And Superman not being identifiable to the reader has been one of the biggest hurdles various creators have been struggling with him for years, and these actions only seem to be compounding that problem.

Also, it's the crazy, complicated romantic drama that makes up Lois and Clark's relationship dynamic that is (as others like Warren Ellis have argued) one-half of the equation that formulates Superman and defines as a character. And that if you diminish or de-emphasize that aspect, you lose something essential to that character. You cannot get away with relying on Superman having a series of hook-ups with random women like James Bond. Lois and Clark, after all, is as just as ingrained in the popular imagination as Robin Hood and Maid Marian, Tarzan and Jane, Popeye and Olive Oil, and Romeo and Juliet.

[Primal Slayer]

And they will probably get back together down the road but it doesnt need to limit the characters to only seeing each other. Hell in the DCAU I liked Lois Lane having a thing with Bruce Wayne. Things like that make it interesting and as much as a Clois fan I am, I am just as fine with them changing it up for the time being.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Primal Slayer

And they will probably get back together down the road but it doesnt need to limit the characters to only seeing each other. Hell in the DCAU I liked Lois Lane having a thing with Bruce Wayne. Things like that make it interesting and as much as a Clois fan I am, I am just as fine with them changing it up for the time being.

Oh, if I'm not saying that, if Lois and Clark are not together that they shouldn't see other people. But it has to made clear that there has to be some degree of attraction for one another beyond just mere friendship. After all, Clark being in love with Lois is what helps to humanize him as a character, while Lois, given her profession, fits perfectly within both Clark and Superman's world. Superman, in order to properly work, needs to have human relationships, particularly with the members of his supporting cast. Romantically pairing him up with a demigod like Wonder Woman symbolically distances himself from humanity even more, and it also gives folks the impression that he and Wonder Woman are essentially carbon copies of one another, or that she's essentially "Super Woman" instead of "Wonder Woman."

[Primal Slayer]

And that could be an interesting storyline for them to tackle. Clark still trying to retain his human side instead of just completely embracing his alien aspect. But he will still have human supporting cast members to keep him down to earth. But they said that his human persona will be brought up since I think he would like to see Diana outside of superohero work.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Union Jack

dunno if anyone else has posted this too but..
Lois was always clarks human side,his grounding point.
If he is with wonder woman..what need has he for a human persona anymore?
This new 52 seems (to me) to be getting worse and worse.,i've already stopped reading it as superman isnt as boy scoutish or herioc as the real superman..and thats a shame,to make a hero modern he has to have an attitude...thats what i always loved about supes is he always rose above the rest,a true hero honest and brave and polite!

Man, I'd give you a blue ribbon if I could!! You have said the very thing I've felt from the beginning.

It seems as if we aren't satisfied with our heroes being a "better" standard for us. We wanna drag them down here with us.

The Boy Scout thing made he the golde standard. But now he's not so nice.

Maybe it's because the Kents are both dead.

[Mindreaper21]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Again...you're judging these two by the old Pre-Flashpoint characters. This Clark has already shown that he's "different" in attitude than the old Clark. Diana is different too...........

We gotta get the old thing outta our heads. This New 52 is a game changer. Why not be open to them being "different".

Alan Scott is very different. Omac is different. Starfire is an even "freer spirit" and The Martian Manhunter is different. But many have no problem with that. Why cant these two have a tranformation too??

Omac is

Ok, but no matter how much their personalities change and no matter how different you write them, they are still Superman and Wonder Woman. Placing the two of them in a relationship this early isn't going to help them. They have changed since Flashpoint and that is why more focus should be on their changes. Seeing Superman with Wonder Woman, as different as they may be, only shows that his character still has some lack of range and development. My main point is that I want to see Superman in relationships with women that he hasn't before or even create new characters for him to continue to build his story. I want to see Wonder Woman develop as well. I want for her to have better stories than this because it just seems predictable. This hurts her character more than Superman because there is so much more that needs to be explored with her.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Primal Slayer

And that could be an interesting storyline for them to tackle. Clark still trying to retain his human side instead of just completely embracing his alien aspect. But he will still have human supporting cast members to keep him down to earth. But they said that his human persona will be brought up since I think he would like to see Diana outside of superohero work.

Right, particularly since Wonder Woman does not have a secret identity. It's kind of creates a similar problem Peter Parker ran into when he started going out with the Black Cat, in that sense. And I don't Wonder Woman would be the type of character to want to adopt a secret identity of her own like "Diana Prince," mainly because she might regard it as a form of lying when she's supposed to be all about being the "Spirit of Truth." Nor is she the type of character who is going to accommodate her lifestyle for another man's sake.

Another storyline I could see coming out of this (along with the upcoming Justice League of America title and Trinity War crossover) has to do with what Jim Lee stated this in an interview on CBS News' website:

Originally Posted by Jim Lee

This [relationship] is a statement to every nation and geopolitical organization in the entire DC Universe giving creative teams ample material to explore this relationship on so many different levels."

Given how it was set-up in Justice League was that "five years ago" the public and the authorities distrusted and were fearful of the growing emergence of superheroes, it sounds like the Superman and Wonder Woman pairing is going to potentially make all of that resurface, that the growing concern among the various organizations is that Superman and Wonder Woman could become the new "Adam and Eve" of a race of super-beings that could potentially result in not only the further subjugation of Earth, but the extinction of the human race.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the organization that Steve Trevor works for, or especially Amanda Waller and the government, decides they have no choice but to bring in Lex Luthor to devise a plan to stop Superman, Wonder Woman, etc., who no doubt would say with characteristic smugness, "I warned you people that Superman was dangerous to this planet. And what a surprise! He's now sharing a bed with a literal demigod. So ladies and gentlemen--are you still going continue to sit back and do nothing out of some naive hope that they're physiologically incompatible? That they have the foresight to use birth control? Or are you going to wait until little flying babies show up to do what you should have done years ago."

However, as I said, the main concern is how this could affect both Superman and Wonder Woman as franchises, and the problems could outweigh whatever short-term gains or story potential it could have.

[Knightsilver]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Right, particularly since Wonder Woman does not have a secret identity. It's kind of creates a similar problem Peter Parker ran into when he started going out with the Black Cat, in that sense. And I don't Wonder Woman would be the type of character to want to adopt a secret identity of her own like "Diana Prince," mainly because she might regard it as a form of lying when she's supposed to be all about being the "Spirit of Truth." Nor is she the type of character who is going to accommodate her lifestyle for another man's sake.

Another storyline I could see coming out of this (along with the upcoming Justice League of America title and Trinity War crossover) has to do with what Jim Lee stated this in an interview on CBS News' website:



Given how it was set-up in Justice League was that "five years ago" the public and the authorities distrusted and were fearful of the growing emergence of superheroes, it sounds like the Superman and Wonder Woman pairing is going to potentially make all of that resurface, that the growing concern among the various organizations is that Superman and Wonder Woman could become the new "Adam and Eve" of a race of super-beings that could potentially result in not only the further the subjugation of Earth, but the extinction of the human race.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the organization that Steve Trevor works for, or especially Amanda Waller and the government, decides they have no choice but to bring in Lex Luthor to devise a plan to stop Superman, Wonder Woman, etc., who no doubt would say with characteristic smugness, "I warned you people that Superman was dangerous to this planet. And what a surprise! He's now sharing a bed with a literal demigod. So ladies and gentlemen--are you going to sit back in the naive hope that they're psychologically incompatible? That they're using birth control? Or are you going to wait until the little flying babies show up to do what you should have done years ago."

However, as I said, the main concern is how this could affect both Superman and Wonder Woman as franchises, and the problems could outweigh whatever short-term gains or story potential it could have.

So is this building up to a Alan Moore "Twilight of the Superheroes" type of scenario ?

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Knightsilver

So is this building up to a Alan Moore "Twilight of the Superheroes" type of scenario ?

Of something very much close to it. Or, when looking at something like this, a Justice League version of Civil War:

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Mindreaper21

Ok, but no matter how much their personalities change and no matter how different you write them, they are still Superman and Wonder Woman. Placing the two of them in a relationship this early isn't going to help them. They have changed since Flashpoint and that is why more focus should be on their changes. Seeing Superman with Wonder Woman, as different as they may be, only shows that his character still has some lack of range and development. My main point is that I want to see Superman in relationships with women that he hasn't before or even create new characters for him to continue to build his story. I want to see Wonder Woman develop as well. I want for her to have better stories than this because it just seems predictable. This hurts her character more than Superman because there is so much more that needs to be explored with her.

But can't you see that this is indeed a focus on how they have changed?? The Pre-Flashpoint Clark and Diana would not have tried this.

[Dangerman]

Johns did a good job on setting things up between Superman and Wonder Woman. However I do hope that Lois Lane is the end game like 10 to 15 years down the line but they really need to put Superman back with Lois for right now though I am ok with this pairing.

[Mindreaper21]

Originally Posted by Shazam

But can't you see that this is indeed a focus on how they have changed?? The Pre-Flashpoint Clark and Diana would not have tried this.

They don't need to be in a relationship to prove how much they have changed. I believe it would be better if they grew individually. Pre-Flashpoint or otherwise, we have seen these two together before. If writers wanted to put Superman in a relationship, it should have been with someone we wouldn't have expected so that it would gain more interest.

[Dangerman]

What I don't understand is that we knew about this hook-up a year in advance so why are people so shocked that it is happening.