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Old 09-04-2012, 07:39 PM   #176
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

I think it's unrealistic to expect character development in an ensemble movie, mostly because it's not about any one individual.

In this type of movie, the team takes the place of the individual character, and when you look at it that way, there was a pretty clear arc. They were cobbled together, fought amongst themselves, failed at their first attempt at group dynamics, learned why they're needed to work as a team, and then performed as a team.

That's no easy feat, and I think Whedon did a great job with it.

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Old 09-04-2012, 11:49 PM   #177
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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If your talking about the series then sure. An on going series can go deeper because they have all the time in the world and you know the chatracters and sub plots from previous episodes. If you're talking about the movie then no freakin way. In fact that might be the worst thing that Joss ever wrote.
Let's be real, whenever anyone's talking about Buffy, it's pretty safe to assume they're not talking about the movie.

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Old 09-05-2012, 01:14 AM   #178
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Yep, if you're read the novelization of Joss' ORIGINAL script as opposed to what they changed it into, there's a HUGE difference. Plus, Donald Sutherland liked to change his lines a lot from what I've heard.

Honestly, if The Avengers is Joss' idea of a popcorn flick...we put up with a lot of unpopped kernals at the cinema.

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Old 09-05-2012, 03:21 AM   #179
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Avengers is far from his worst. It doesn't necessarily have the creativity of something like Dr. Horrible or Cabin in the Woods, or the emotional punch or existential themes of his Astonishing X-Men run. But holy ****, is it fun.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:04 AM   #180
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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We're talking about artistic works in which there can be no objective judge of quality. Given that we all understand that, I'd have thought that I could make comments and have everyone appreciate that I don't speak with absolute authority on the matter given that none exists. I do have reasoning behind making my decision which I'm happy to discuss and debate, that's the whole point of these boards. Not many posters have offered much objective reasoning for the Avengers superiority and nobody appears outraged.
Purely beyond anything considered spectacle (which was amazing imo) this should sum it up:

The Avengers was the first majorly successful team-up and crossover in film. And I'm not just talking box office, it combined heroes from drastically different worlds/directors/visions into one cohesive plot. Not X-Men, Fantastic Four or Watchmen can even say that. And by no means can those be considered crossovers.

He managed to do justice to four different characters who could easily be considered the star or protagonist all on the same screen and often at the same time. While giving new emotive identity to 2 others, BW and Fury. All while simultaneously introducing 2 new characters (Hill and Barton, I'm not counting his cameo in Thor) and made me (for one) care about who they were and why they were even involved. Fleshing out 8 characters on a scale from key to integral in a movie where 1.5/2.25 hours could be considered action or "spectacle."

He showed prowess doing what Jon Favreau/Shane Black have already done with RDJ, and by creating the first widely acclaimed Hulk/Banner, and he did his best with Captain America (even though one of his better scenes was cut). Thor may have been lacking in this film, but he wasnt screwed up by any means.

Finally, he made a villain who, though not nearly as popular or iconic as The Joker, brought significant competition to the realm of Super Villains in cinema. No I'm not saying Hiddleston was on par with Ledger's performance. But he was at least a substantial villain who provided an entertaining and believably large enough threat for a team of 6+ powerful heroes.

Sure most of this has to do with character development, but thats what Whedon does, he makes amazing characters we can relate to in a short amount of time while holding an audiences attention. I agree with anyone who says that The Avengers barely scratches the surface of Whedon's vision for the MCU. And being that he co-wrote and directed this multi billion dollar film, yeah, I'd say that gains him the respect of a little more than his "weakest piece of work."

Keeping in mind I'm a forserious Browncoat and it is still tough for me to say Avengers was better than Serenity or Firefly.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:26 AM   #181
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

On a separate note, if you feel Joss Whedon didnt work hard enough or spend enough time on The Avengers, take a quick glance at this:

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/04/ff_whedon/

I'll pull out the highlights.

"In a dark room at Marvel Studios, Whedon sinks into a sagging couch in front of a screen that takes up an entire wall, watching tiny scraps of his movie. Behind him, members of the visual effects team click away on MacBooks, waiting for Whedon to comment. The sequences come fast, each just a few seconds long, but in a way they’re not fast enough. “It comes out May 4,” Whedon says. “They’ll pry it from our fingers. If I can just ride through these couple more months, then we should be OK.”"

“You don’t have to say what you’re trying to say. You can just do it, and then people will feel it,” Whedon says. “The more I hone this and just focus on the Avengers as they relate to one another, the better it works. That’s painful, but it’s a reality.”

"And maybe the truth about Whedon’s work is that the more self-conscious it is, the narrower its audience. The Avengers wouldn’t work as a self-aware, postmodern deconstruction of superhero team gender dynamics. Hulk gotta smash."

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Old 09-05-2012, 07:48 AM   #182
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

I was never a Joss fan before Avengers, so I'm not going to try to compare and contrast what he did before this. But I'll say that I understand why he tries to say that Avengers wasn't necessarily his best work, whether you agree with him or not: it's simply that, as an artist, you'd much rather be remembered for work YOU created as opposed to for somebody else. At the end of the day, Joss would rather be remembered for something that was *entirely* his creative vision, as opposed to an adaptation of someone else's characters and/or stories.

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Old 09-05-2012, 08:37 AM   #183
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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I was never a Joss fan before Avengers, so I'm not going to try to compare and contrast what he did before this. But I'll say that I understand why he tries to say that Avengers wasn't necessarily his best work, whether you agree with him or not: it's simply that, as an artist, you'd much rather be remembered for work YOU created as opposed to for somebody else. At the end of the day, Joss would rather be remembered for something that was *entirely* his creative vision, as opposed to an adaptation of someone else's characters and/or stories.
And I can respect that. But unless I missed something the point wasn't that The Avengers was "not necessarily his best" but in fact "his weakest." I wholeheartedly think that's nuts.

And of course, my opinion. But a strong opinion indeed.

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Old 09-05-2012, 10:35 AM   #184
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
On a separate note, if you feel Joss Whedon didnt work hard enough or spend enough time on The Avengers, take a quick glance at this:

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/04/ff_whedon/
I don't think anybody is saying that there are problems with the film as a result of Whedon not working hard enough or dedicating enough of himself. One of the quotes you selected, though, supports the idea that The Avengers schedule was very tight.

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“It comes out May 4,” Whedon says. “They’ll pry it from our fingers."
As well as
Quote:
Whedon would have just 92 days to shoot, and the postproduction schedule was going to be brutally tight.

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Old 09-05-2012, 05:12 PM   #185
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

It was clearly foolish of me to make my initial statement without considering that others wouldn't neglect to consider the Buffy film or Alien Resurrection as I do. Rest assured, I don't consider them better than the Avengers.

When it comes to character development, I don't look at it expecting to see arcs comparable to those accomplished over, say, seven years of Buffy. That said, I still feel that the arcs and character progression in the Avengers were lacking in exploration which make the film, as a stand alone piece, weaker than it could be. The comparison for me come into play when considering that after Buffy had finished, I don't feel the themes or character progression attempted were lacking or underdeveloped and thus, it's a stronger work. So it's not that I criticise Whedon for not developing the Avengers to the same extent as he did his tv ensembles, but rather I criticise him for not executing what he attempted to do as seamlessly as he has before. I would say exactly the same in terms of the subtext and thematic thrust of the film in comparison to his other work.

In the interest of debate though, I do want to respond to the arguments that Avengers should be considered superior to his other works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
Purely beyond anything considered spectacle (which was amazing imo) this should sum it up:

The Avengers was the first majorly successful team-up and crossover in film. And I'm not just talking box office, it combined heroes from drastically different worlds/directors/visions into one cohesive plot. Not X-Men, Fantastic Four or Watchmen can even say that. And by no means can those be considered crossovers.
Although I question exactly how drastic the difference between the other Marvel Studios films is, I accept that this is true. Other directors/writers may have struggled with this and Whedon succeeded in that goal. However, I don't view the potential struggles of making the film more important than the film itself. I can't therefore, consider Avengers stronger than Buffy, Dollhouse etc because it may have been difficult to make.

Quote:
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He managed to do justice to four different characters who could easily be considered the star or protagonist all on the same screen and often at the same time. While giving new emotive identity to 2 others, BW and Fury. All while simultaneously introducing 2 new characters (Hill and Barton, I'm not counting his cameo in Thor) and made me (for one) care about who they were and why they were even involved. Fleshing out 8 characters on a scale from key to integral in a movie where 1.5/2.25 hours could be considered action or "spectacle."

He showed prowess doing what Jon Favreau/Shane Black have already done with RDJ, and by creating the first widely acclaimed Hulk/Banner, and he did his best with Captain America (even though one of his better scenes was cut). Thor may have been lacking in this film, but he wasnt screwed up by any means.

Finally, he made a villain who, though not nearly as popular or iconic as The Joker, brought significant competition to the realm of Super Villains in cinema. No I'm not saying Hiddleston was on par with Ledger's performance. But he was at least a substantial villain who provided an entertaining and believably large enough threat for a team of 6+ powerful heroes.
All this strikes me as two points, that Whedon's characterisation is very good and that he deftly handles ensembles.I couldn't agree more, I think his character work exceeds that of his Marvel Studios predecessors in many instances. Again though, I don't think he showed a 'better' understanding in this than any of his other works. It shows Whedon is skilled at what he does and his achievement could not be replicated by many, but he shows these skills in his other works as well and, I feel, uses them for a more streamlined result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
Sure most of this has to do with character development, but thats what Whedon does, he makes amazing characters we can relate to in a short amount of time while holding an audiences attention. I agree with anyone who says that The Avengers barely scratches the surface of Whedon's vision for the MCU. And being that he co-wrote and directed this multi billion dollar film, yeah, I'd say that gains him the respect of a little more than his "weakest piece of work."

Keeping in mind I'm a forserious Browncoat and it is still tough for me to say Avengers was better than Serenity or Firefly.
I have no doubt that the Avengers is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Whedon will bring to the MCU, I expect the sequel to exceed its predecessor in every way. I have boundless respect for Whedon's accomplishment with this film but I have a very high opinion of his other works and comparatively, I don't think this quite stacks up.

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Old 09-06-2012, 04:18 AM   #186
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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It was clearly foolish of me to make my initial statement without considering that others wouldn't neglect to consider the Buffy film or Alien Resurrection as I do. Rest assured, I don't consider them better than the Avengers.

When it comes to character development, I don't look at it expecting to see arcs comparable to those accomplished over, say, seven years of Buffy. That said, I still feel that the arcs and character progression in the Avengers were lacking in exploration which make the film, as a stand alone piece, weaker than it could be. The comparison for me come into play when considering that after Buffy had finished, I don't feel the themes or character progression attempted were lacking or underdeveloped and thus, it's a stronger work. So it's not that I criticise Whedon for not developing the Avengers to the same extent as he did his tv ensembles, but rather I criticise him for not executing what he attempted to do as seamlessly as he has before. I would say exactly the same in terms of the subtext and thematic thrust of the film in comparison to his other work.

In the interest of debate though, I do want to respond to the arguments that Avengers should be considered superior to his other works.



Although I question exactly how drastic the difference between the other Marvel Studios films is, I accept that this is true. Other directors/writers may have struggled with this and Whedon succeeded in that goal. However, I don't view the potential struggles of making the film more important than the film itself. I can't therefore, consider Avengers stronger than Buffy, Dollhouse etc because it may have been difficult to make.



All this strikes me as two points, that Whedon's characterisation is very good and that he deftly handles ensembles.I couldn't agree more, I think his character work exceeds that of his Marvel Studios predecessors in many instances. Again though, I don't think he showed a 'better' understanding in this than any of his other works. It shows Whedon is skilled at what he does and his achievement could not be replicated by many, but he shows these skills in his other works as well and, I feel, uses them for a more streamlined result.



I have no doubt that the Avengers is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what Whedon will bring to the MCU, I expect the sequel to exceed its predecessor in every way. I have boundless respect for Whedon's accomplishment with this film but I have a very high opinion of his other works and comparatively, I don't think this quite stacks up.
"Drastically different" may only go so far as the fact we are bringing soldiers, machines, monsters and gods together under one roof. I feel like few men could make us love a story like this. Stan Lee being one of them, Joss Whedon another. If the MCU hadn't been so good, neither could Joss have done what he did with The Avengers.

You are right that Joss employs his skills with characterization and ensembles in his other works. But I feel like he has improved SINCE Buffy (both film and show) culminating in a film that exemplifies his greatest strengths as well as his progress/growth superbly.

well I thoroughly appreciate your explanation. Yours is definitely an opinion that's hard for me to swallow, but at least you're not trolling.

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:55 AM   #187
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Posted the Script from the Young readers Avengers novel for the Man out of time part for those of you wanting to read it. Not sure how CLOSE it comes to the actual scene in the movie since I've yet to see it.

http://forums.superherohype.com/show...383515&page=23

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Old 09-06-2012, 04:08 PM   #188
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Weird Secrets of the Avengers That You'd Never Have Guessed

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Old 09-06-2012, 05:26 PM   #189
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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Interesting article, thanks for posting that.

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Old 09-06-2012, 05:36 PM   #190
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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Wow, I knew they put a lot of effort to make the city as accurate to real life as possible. One of the few films of its kind that does so.

Much better than The Amazing Spider-Man. Lots of geographic errors in that film.

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Old 09-06-2012, 05:40 PM   #191
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Yeah, I think the one I found most interesting was that the Cap/Iron Man team up during 'the tracking shot' was added. I know I heard some people complain that Cap was so obviously CGI during that scene, now it kind of makes sense why.

Wonder where they originally had him during that tracking shot though (and if it had anything to do with the shot from the trailer of him throwing his shield down an alley)

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Old 09-06-2012, 05:43 PM   #192
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

That was a cool article. I can't believe how much they worked to copy Ruffalo's face.

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Old 09-06-2012, 06:05 PM   #193
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Great article, thanks!!

I just remembered today that Emily Blunt couldn't be Black Widow in Iron Man 2 because of that Gulliver's Travels movie.

Talk about bad luck and the chance to be in the 3rd movie of all time.

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Old 09-06-2012, 06:30 PM   #194
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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Great article, thanks!!

I just remembered today that Emily Blunt couldn't be Black Widow in Iron Man 2 because of that Gulliver's Travels movie.

Talk about bad luck and the chance to be in the 3rd movie of all time.
she says now she's glad she didn't do it though. she said she wouldn't of liked to of been contracted into so many films. Which... to some actors really is a valid turn-off. so i don't fault her. though, i do think she may have been a little better than scarjo is

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Old 09-06-2012, 11:58 PM   #195
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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she says now she's glad she didn't do it though. she said she wouldn't of liked to of been contracted into so many films. Which... to some actors really is a valid turn-off. so i don't fault her. though, i do think she may have been a little better than scarjo is

Shorter Blunt: "Oh, I'm glad I didn't get those grapes, they were probably sour, anyway."


I'm glad Blunt didn't get the role. She probably would have been totally wrong for it, anyway. Marvel was lucky to get Johansson instead. (Shorter xeno: "Wow, these grapes sure are sweet! I'm glad we got them instead of those other ones.")

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Old 09-07-2012, 01:42 AM   #196
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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she says now she's glad she didn't do it though. she said she wouldn't of liked to of been contracted into so many films. Which... to some actors really is a valid turn-off. so i don't fault her. though, i do think she may have been a little better than scarjo is
So instead of be part of the biggest movie of the summer and #3 movie of all-time, she's glad that she was in that little movie called "Five Year Engagement" instead? I think she's just saying that to make herself feel better about what could have been.

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Old 09-07-2012, 04:12 AM   #197
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

i didnt know about Kirby & Lee attorneys at law. nice im gonna look for it

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Old 09-07-2012, 04:19 AM   #198
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

Man I love this film so much but god damn that Cap scene should never have been cut.

I work shift work and find it hard to go to sleep at night when I'm not working, except the last few nights I've slept like a baby just popping Avengers on the tv in my room and letting it wash over my while I pass out. The best part is waking up in the morning to the epic Alan Silvestri 'Assemble' from the DVD menu :P

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Old 09-07-2012, 07:31 AM   #199
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

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So instead of be part of the biggest movie of the summer and #3 movie of all-time, she's glad that she was in that little movie called "Five Year Engagement" instead? I think she's just saying that to make herself feel better about what could have been.

Actually, Blunt was prevented from appearing in Iron Man 2 by her contract with FOX, which required her to film that horrible Gulliver movie with Jack Black instead. At the time she was said to have been very disappointed that she had to back out of playing the Widow, multi-film deal notwithstanding.


It's amusing that Blunt now says she's glad she "turned down" the roles of Black Widow and Peggy Carter. It's impossible to imagine her as either Natasha or Peggy, both of whom were played perfectly by other actresses. All I can say is, thank goodness Marvel didn't use her or her husband in any of its main roles. The thought of Krasinski playing Captain America still makes me shudder.

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:18 AM   #200
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Default Re: Avengers Assembled: News and Speculation - - - Part 69

I was just thinking - I wonder if the makers of the 1998 Avengers movie about Steed and Mrs Peel ever look at this 2012 film and wish that their's had been the 3rd biggest movie of all time with that same name?

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