When and how should Gwen Stacy die? - Part 1

[Dagenspear]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

I agree with spideyboy, ".............?"

stunned silence.

adapting comic book source material into films "is a disgusting disservice to the integrity of the story"???

for someone who loiters on comic book movie forums like the rest of us... you got some strange opinions Dagen

I love and respect the comics for what they are, and I don't need, nor do I want, them to be anything but that. The comics should inspire the films, but not restrict the creative integrity of the story. To adapt it would be to strip it of it's relevence and meaning and disfigure and pervert it into nothing more than a cheap shock for the GA, and an even cheaper thrill for the obsessive comic book fanboys.

[Dagenspear]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

? Stop describing yourself man.....

If you have nothing to say but dribble out childish insults, then just don't reply. It's sad. Not to mention nonsensical. That's the definition of a word, not the description of a person. If you're going to insult me, at least be smart about it.

[Dagenspear]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

Except the more you voice.... The less anyone listens.

I'm not sure why I should care that anyone who insults people and can't stand up and offer an intelligent rebutel isn't listening.

[pr0xyt0xin]

Originally Posted by Dagenspear

If you respected the source material you'd understand that what made the story a classic was that it was new, shocking, a first, and to dilute it into anything less than that by forcing it upon the films is a disgusting disservice to the integrity of the story. And it's hardly famous.

Originally Posted by Dagenspear

I love and respect the comics for what they are, and I don't need, nor do I want, them to be anything but that. The comics should inspire the films, but not restrict the creative integrity of the story. To adapt it would be to strip it of it's relevence and meaning and disfigure and pervert it into nothing more than a cheap shock for the GA, and an even cheaper thrill for the obsessive comic book fanboys.

Even still, by saying the the text i made bold, you are discrediting yourself and your opinion among all fans of comic book films. You don't even want comics to be made into movies? Why are you here?

Originally Posted by Dagenspear

Yes I do. And with the disappointingly few amount of voices against this, I have to make myself heard. And it's been like three days.

and if your goal is actually to sway anyone's opinion, or even to have us take your opinion seriously, it might make sense for you to actually respect the genre itself. To be honest, your opinion of comic book films is what is disgusting. If you think comic book films force comic books into being a "disgusting disservice" then don't watch them, but some of us actually believe the stories can be made as good as we remember them as kids.

You are part of the reason Hollywood and the like have looked down their noses upon the genre for so long, you call yourself a fan of comic books and you yourself don't even show the genre respect.

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Even still, by saying the the text i made bold, you are discrediting yourself and your opinion among all fans of comic book films. You don't even want comics to be made into movies? Why are you here?

Dude, I think you are deliberately misinterpreting his words. The very next sentence in the part you quoted shows his approach and mentality in how comic books should be adapted - which is to provide inspiration for the plot and not for the plot to be copied whole cloth.

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

and if your goal is actually to sway anyone's opinion, or even to have us take your opinion seriously, it might make sense for you to actually respect the genre itself. To be honest, your opinion of comic book films is what is disgusting. If you think comic book films force comic books into being a "disgusting disservice" then don't watch them, but some of us actually believe the stories can be made as good as we remember them as kids.

You are part of the reason Hollywood and the like have looked down their noses upon the genre for so long, you call yourself a fan of comic books and you yourself don't even show the genre respect.

Actually, I feel Dagenspear's been plenty respectful - both, towards comic books AND this conversation - which is more than I can say for quite a number of you all. Just because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't automatically give you the right to insult the person.

[Web face]

Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Dude, I think you are deliberately misinterpreting his words. The very next sentence in the part you quoted shows his approach and mentality in how comic books should be adapted - which is to provide inspiration for the plot and not for the plot to be copied whole cloth.



Actually, I feel Dagenspear's been plenty respectful - both, towards comic books AND this conversation - which is more than I can say for quite a number of you all. Just because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't automatically give you the right to insult the person.

To be fair he has insulted the people that he is talking to also. Unless I am misinterpreting his words, he called someone a whiny fanboy or something. The insults have been thrown around both ways man. That's why I think everyone should stop taking this topic so seriously. We literally have zero control over her death. Sony isn't going to come to this thread to make a desicion of whether Gwen should die or not and even if they did, they would probably look at the poll results because they want money.

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by Web face

To be fair he has insulted the people that he is talking to also. Unless I am misinterpreting his words, he called someone a whiny fanboy or something. The insults have been thrown around both ways man. That's why I think everyone should stop taking this topic so seriously. We literally have zero control over her death. Sony isn't going to come to this thread to make a desicion of whether Gwen should die or not and even if they did, they would probably look at the poll results because they want money.

Precisely. This thread is pretty much for us to discuss the pros and cons of killing off Gwen Stacy (particularly in a manner similar to the comics), the real world repercussions and implications of such an event, as well what else can be done with the character.

[OP84CC82]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

Except the more you voice.... The less anyone listens.

You forgot about me, you know, the one who started saying Gwen's death was a bad idea on the previous thread in the first place!

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Dagenspear

I'm not sure why I should care that anyone who insults people and can't stand up and offer an intelligent rebutel isn't listening.

People have done that 10 fold.... Its half to argue with someone who's posts are irrational

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Dagenspear

If you have nothing to say but dribble out childish insults, then just don't reply. It's sad. Not to mention nonsensical. That's the definition of a word, not the description of a person. If you're going to insult me, at least be smart about it.

If you have nothing to say besides things you've already said and ruin the fun for everyone else in the thread why continue to post in it????

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Dagenspear

Kind of. On film, it would be, that is. It's just not practical in the universe Nolan had established. But like I said, just the whining of an obsessive comic book fanboy, that holds no merit.

You mean like the practical world where a billionaire runs around dressed as a bat fighting a clown, crazed burn victim and a man with a burlap sack on his face....

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Web face

To be fair he has insulted the people that he is talking to also. Unless I am misinterpreting his words, he called someone a whiny fanboy or something. The insults have been thrown around both ways man. That's why I think everyone should stop taking this topic so seriously. We literally have zero control over her death. Sony isn't going to come to this thread to make a desicion of whether Gwen should die or not and even if they did, they would probably look at the poll results because they want money.

This is why i want thread to get back on topic... Its about "how should she die" and "when should it take place" not if it should happen or not

Dagen has said his opinion a million times over. Let those who are here to discuss the topic discuss it without him disagreeing with everyone . if you want to discuss why gwen shouldn't die.... Do so in the general discussion or another thread rather than detailing the fun out of this one

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Actually, I feel Dagenspear's been plenty respectful - both, towards comic books AND this conversation - which is more than I can say for quite a number of you all. Just because you disagree with someone's opinion doesn't automatically give you the right to insult the person.

Dagen has flatout said the notion of wanting gwen to die is disgusting, immoral, whiney , and a whole list of other things..... literally as if were sentencing a real person to death...

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by OP84CC82

You forgot about me, you know, the one who started saying Gwen's death was a bad idea on the previous thread in the first place!

Hard to forget someone when ii do not know of you.

[©KAW]

A billionaire runs around dressed as a bat fighting a clown.

Dats Dat Gritty Stuff, huh Ma?

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

Dagen has flatout said the notion of wanting gwen to die is disgusting, immoral, whiney , and a whole list of other things..... literally as if were sentencing a real person to death...

And given how a number of people have exhibited such glee as they fantasise on how they would go about killing a woman... I am inclined to agree. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but there is a sickening sense of misogyny in some of the comments being made. I mean, notice how there wasn't such fervent discussion on how Uncle Ben should be killed? Honestly, the way some people are getting so thrilled and excited over the prospect of Gwen dying, it's like they get off on it. Frankly, it's a little disturbing.


While my view may not be as extreme as Dagenspear, I too currently fall in the group that Gwen Stacy shouldn't be killed by default simply because it was done in the comics. Like most comic book movies, TASM is a loose adaptation based on the comic book that is telling its own original story in its own original universe (in contrast to a recreation that is trying to stick as close to the original as possible a la book adaptations like the Harry Potter franchise).

Moreover, the reasons people have given are just poor; simply because it was done in the comics (as elaborated above, not a convincing argument), to provide Peter a source of angst and/or to shock the audience (which has a sense of 'Women in Refrigerators' syndrome), and to make way for Mary Jane (which comes off as sexist, undermines Gwen's death, and presents women as replaceable and interchangeable).

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by mr. peasant

And given how a number of people have exhibited such glee as they fantasise on how they would go about killing a woman... I am inclined to agree. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but there is a sickening sense of misogyny in some of the comments being made; getting so excited over Gwen Stacy dying. I mean, notice how there wasn't such fervent discussion on how Uncle Ben should be killed?


While my view may not be as extreme as Dagenspear, I too currently fall in the group that Gwen Stacy shouldn't be killed by default simply because it was done in the comics. Like most comic book movies, TASM is a loose adaptation based on the comic book that is telling its own original story in its own original universe (in contrast to a recreation that is trying to stick as close to the original as possible a la book adaptations like the Harry Potter franchise).

Moreover, the reasons people have given are just poor; simply because it was done in the comics (as elaborated above, not a convincing argument), to provide Peter a source of angst and/or to shock the audience (which has a sense of 'Women in Refrigerators' syndrome), and to make way for Mary Jane (which comes off as sexist, undermines Gwen's death, and presents women as replaceable and interchangeable).

oh lordy...

if this was spider-woman and Garry Stacy... we'd all be saying the same damn thing. Do not play the feminism card... it's beyond ridiculous.

the story has zero impact as the fact Gwen is a woman... it's because it's the heroes first (true) love. It's easily the most important story in the spider-man mytho's next to his origin because it ushered in his adulthood and made the green goblin spidey's arch enemy.

people arn't "excited to watch gwen die" were excited for the story and emotions that come from it. so yes... you're reading far far far too into it.


I think the "because it's done in the comics" angle is petty.. considering we now have many stories where gwen did not die... why not let such an infamous event actually get handled on the big screen? I mean.. if we're ditching the books completely.. you might as well not of killed off uncle ben..

these are indeed adaptations. but adaptations typically base themselves off of an array of source material. they just don't start from scratch and ignore everything in the comics. That's actually why it took years for comic films to be successful, because no one cared about source material. the 90s is full of it.

people have stated hundreds of reasons.. you only choose to pay attention to the faulty ones... that are "just because of the comics"

you two will find a reason to tear apart anyone's opinion just because you won't be convinced otherwise.

you've spoken. let others continue to speculate and share their idea on how it should be handled.

[OP84CC82]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

you might as well not of killed off uncle ben

How is that the same thing?

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by OP84CC82

How is that the same thing?

Because Ben 's death was the origin of spider-man. Gwen's is not only the origin of the green goblin becoming a true arch enemy but also the origin of peters adulthood.

You wouldn't have the spider-man we know and love today for the last 40 years without either of those tragedies.

[SpiderBat]

She should never die. However, we should all be lead to believe that she has died for a while - out of respect for the original story.

[Oscorp]

Gwen's death is not only important to Peter, but as spideyboy said, it's also something that's a very important part of Green Goblin's history. And I want Green Goblin to have the arch enemy status he deserves in a movie.

[Web face]

Originally Posted by mr. peasant

And given how a number of people have exhibited such glee as they fantasise on how they would go about killing a woman... I am inclined to agree. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but there is a sickening sense of misogyny in some of the comments being made. I mean, notice how there wasn't such fervent discussion on how Uncle Ben should be killed? Honestly, the way some people are getting so thrilled and excited over the prospect of Gwen dying, it's like they get off on it. Frankly, it's a little disturbing.


While my view may not be as extreme as Dagenspear, I too currently fall in the group that Gwen Stacy shouldn't be killed by default simply because it was done in the comics. Like most comic book movies, TASM is a loose adaptation based on the comic book that is telling its own original story in its own original universe (in contrast to a recreation that is trying to stick as close to the original as possible a la book adaptations like the Harry Potter franchise).

Moreover, the reasons people have given are just poor; simply because it was done in the comics (as elaborated above, not a convincing argument), to provide Peter a source of angst and/or to shock the audience (which has a sense of 'Women in Refrigerators' syndrome), and to make way for Mary Jane (which comes off as sexist, undermines Gwen's death, and presents women as replaceable and interchangeable).

Well if you simplify the reasons like that then every reason can be seen as poor. I mean lets see the reasons for why she shouldn't die;
1.) It would be creative and different, even though the Night Gwen Stacy Died was creative and different when it happened in the comics and it isn't like killing her would be the most cliched choice
2.) It is disgusting to want a human to die for your pleasure. It's not like we are spectators in the Roman Colosseum, actually hoping to see real people being slaughtered in the most inhumane way. She is a fictional character and they are portraying it as a horrible horrible thing to take a life from someone, they aren't trying to show that it is fun to watch people die.
3.) It is sexist. This one bugs me a lot. It's as if just because Gwen is a woman, then it is sexist. I saw no one complaining about Ben's death and saying it was sexist against men. Gobby isn't killing her because she is a woman and therefore inferior. He is killing her because she is one of the closest people to Peter and his first true love. Also, wouldn't it make sense to make Spider-man's nemesis seem a little sexist, if you are going to think that way? It shows that sexism is an attribute of an evil lunatic.
I'm not trying to stir anything up, but you can't call some points poor just because you don't agree with them. I get the perspective that she shouldn't die. Some people just don't want to see it happened. Some people just want to see something that they might have not expected as much. Maybe some just thought it was a bad story when it happened in the comics. I just happen to disagree with them.

[OP84CC82]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

Because Ben 's death was the origin of spider-man. Gwen's is not only the origin of the green goblin becoming a true arch enemy but also the origin of peters adulthood.

You wouldn't have the spider-man we know and love today for the last 40 years without either of those tragedies.

You mean the man-child who gives his marriage to the devil so his old aunt who didn't want him to save her and was going to die eventually anyway? Yeah, I don't love that Spidey.

[Web face]

Originally Posted by OP84CC82

You mean the man-child who gives his marriage to the devil so his old aunt who didn't want him to save her and was going to die eventually anyway? Yeah, I don't love that Spidey.

Lol that was probably more of a tragedy for the fans than it was for Spider-man himself.

[mr. peasant]

Originally Posted by Web face

I'm not trying to stir anything up, but you can't call some points poor just because you don't agree with them. I get the perspective that she shouldn't die. Some people just don't want to see it happened. Some people just want to see something that they might have not expected as much. Maybe some just thought it was a bad story when it happened in the comics. I just happen to disagree with them.

It's not only that they are reasons I disagree with but they are objectively seen as bad writing techniques. For instance, having the villain deliberately murder the romantic lead purely as a means to shock the audience and for the sole story purpose of antagonising or causing angst to the protagonist (as opposed to anything in relation to the killed off character his/herself) completely undermines the dead romantic lead as a character and renders him/her as nothing but an extension of the protagonist (i.e. her only value in the story is as the object of the hero's affection). That's pretty crap characterisation.

If Goblin kills Gwen, it should either be in retaliation for something she did or because it's the means towards a tangible goal; as opposed to being in retaliation towards Spidey or because the Goblin's goal is to mess with Spidey. The world doesn't completely revolve around Spidey, is essentially what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Web face

1.) It would be creative and different, even though the Night Gwen Stacy Died was creative and different when it happened in the comics and it isn't like killing her would be the most cliched choice

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm trying to convey is that just because it has been done before in the comics (and done well) is not reason enough on its own to necessitate the plot to develop i such a way. Otherwise, Gwen should give birth to a couple Goblin kids too since that's what happened in the comics.

Originally Posted by Web face

3.) It is sexist. This one bugs me a lot. It's as if just because Gwen is a woman, then it is sexist. I saw no one complaining about Ben's death and saying it was sexist against men.

See, it's the lack of excited anticipation and discussion on how Ben Parker should be killed off that makes me feel there is some misogynistic undertones going on here. I mean, considering Ben Parker's death is even more emotionally heart wrenching and important in Peter Parker's character development, why weren't people gleefully commenting how they love and can't wait to see Ben get killed in as horribly a way as possible? Compare this to some of the more 'emotive' members of the "Let's kill Gwen Stacy" crowd.

Originally Posted by Web face

2.) It is disgusting to want a human to die for your pleasure. It's not like we are spectators in the Roman Colosseum, actually hoping to see real people being slaughtered in the most inhumane way. She is a fictional character and they are portraying it as a horrible horrible thing to take a life from someone, they aren't trying to show that it is fun to watch people die.

Now, I don't normally like to name names but given how people are disagreeing with this sentiment, I feel compelled to provide specific examples of the behaviour troubling me. Take a look at a couple of these gems:

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Soon and brutally.

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

hell yea dude! I'd love to be in charge of Gwen's death. I dont mean to brag but, I think i could make it quite a gut-wrenching moment.

Originally Posted by ©KAW

In the third film...and brutally.

Originally Posted by spidergeek232

Yes, yes! You actually understand it! I could see it at the end of the third movie:

Peter is in his room, sobbing over the recent events (Gwen's death, Norman's death, even though he's the villain, he still feels guilty.)

Mary Jane comes into room. She looks like she was crying a bit, as well.

MJ: Peter are you--
Peter: Get out...
MJ: What?

Peter stands up from his bed.

Peter: I said get out! Get the hell out of here! Shouldn't you be at some party getting wasted and what not, like most of you usually do!? Leave 'cause I'm sure you hate sick beds...! Leave...

Peter sits back down and breaks down. Mary Jane opens the door ready to leave, but she stops and looks at Peter. She then shuts the door. She goes over and sits by him.

MJ: Peter...
Peter: Go...
MJ: Peter look at me.
Peter: I said go!

Tears are going down Peter's face. Mary Jane wipes off his tears gently. She hugs him. He hugs her back.

MJ: Peter, everything's gonna be okay...I promise...

The camera slowly zooms out from his room. The screen fades to black, with some calm, peaceful music closing for the movie.

You see? If the movie ended like that, it ends on a happy note because indicates that he would find love in Mary Jane and everything will be okay.

But also, that ending could set up for more movies, if that's what they want to do.

What do you think of the little script for the scene??? Came form the top of my head!

These are from people who have zero input into the execution of the movie's story. Yet, they are fantasising about Gwen's death and how the fallout or how gratuitously the death itself should play out. Tell me none of this is creepy.


In short, my feeling is that discussing the merits, motivations/justifications for the character to be killed off and the strategy/timing of it for it to be the most impactful/effective is fine. Going into the fine detail of how the scene should play out (and deriving pleasure out of it!), I feel is weird and disturbing. But hey, that's just me.