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Old 09-05-2012, 04:00 PM   #151
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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That's basically the reason why characters like Hawkeye and Ms Marvel will never have comic accurate costumes.They can't explain them to the GA.

She needs a reason to wear a mask,have a lightning emblem,red sash,thigh boots......

And that's why we'll have Ms Marvel,at best, dressed like Elektra in Daredevil,or at worst,be dressed the same as BW/Maria Hill.
Or she can just be dressed like Mar-Vell, which is the conclusion her actual character arc leads to...

The lightning bolt costume is literally just something Wasp made for her once, and it only stuck around because no one bothered to change it

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:01 PM   #152
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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I totally agree.

I never made a big deal out of the fact that I've seen Justin Heartly more times on Smallville with is shirt off than in the Green Arrow costume.

In this case,I'm only asking for the classic costume on the big screen.It's not like I'm asking for a shower scene or anything!
Except for one or two posters, who are being straight perverts, I don't really think most people here are asking for the Black costume unedited out of some sexual desire...this is the 21st century, we all have internet and know where to find things a lot more risque than that.

The reason I want the black one piece with the lightning bolt, the sash, the domino mask, the long gloves and the thigh highs is because that's what Ms. Marvel looks like to me. That's who she is. That's how I recognize her as a character.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:03 PM   #153
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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I agree...in the comic that's the definitive look. But it wouldn't work at all for a movie.

They could put her in tight leather, keep the symbol on her chest but she'd have to wear something to cover the arms and legs. And remove the mask or make the mask into something that has a use.
Like the helmet mask seen on a previous page.

I think we can probably all agree the Immortus/Marcus stuff should be left out of the films. One of the weirdest and just plain nasty stories ever written, and really not something the general audiences would dig.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #154
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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The reason I want the black one piece with the lightning bolt, the sash, the domino mask, the long gloves and the thigh highs is because that's what Ms. Marvel looks like to me. That's who she is. That's how I recognize her as a character.
Exactly.I mean,I suppose her original costume would work pretty well (as in the animated series),but that's still not her iconic look,IMO.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #155
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

The Moonstone costume would be great, but only if Mar-Vell wears his classic red/blues first. Which I kind of doubt.

The only thing that actually matters in terms of Carol's costume is that it either be Mar-Vell's exact uniform, or derived from it. Everything else is basically open to interpretation.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:20 PM   #156
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

I'd be fine with the Moonstone costume.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:50 PM   #157
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

Just for kicks:



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Actor had better do a ton of squats if he wants the thighs to pull that thing off
lol!!!!

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One advantage Carol would have with her costume is coming into a world where there already are superheroes. That's something no franchise has had the benefit of yet.

She can literally create a costume to be a superhero, because she exists in a world that has superheroes, where as Nolan Batman, Spider-Man, Captain America etc required explanation/ justification.
Hmmm... you still have to explain why she wants to be seen as a superhero. That goes back to giving her something to stand for. In-universe, being a superhero is not a 'goal' it's a side effect.

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The Moonstone costume would be great, but only if Mar-Vell wears his classic red/blues first. Which I kind of doubt.

The only thing that actually matters in terms of Carol's costume is that it either be Mar-Vell's exact uniform, or derived from it. Everything else is basically open to interpretation.
Agreed, the Moonstone costume is the easiest to explain and perhaps the cleanest.

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:55 PM   #158
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

I like it.

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Old 09-05-2012, 05:09 PM   #159
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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He's probably referring to all the posters in this thread who are mortally offended that Ms. Marvel wears thigh-highs and Wonder Woman wears star-spangled panties.

And he's certainly got a point. There's more prudes in this thread than there are likely to be amongst audiences who actually care about a Ms. Marvel or Wonder Woman movie.
Its not prudery, its prudence. Make a movie with a superheroine who dresses like a prostitute, and the audience will react appropriately. Face it, most superheroine costumes need major revamps to get the GA to take them seriously.

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Old 09-05-2012, 05:10 PM   #160
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

She could have the Moonstone costume first, and then later she could adopt the classic Ms Marvel costume. Once she's established (and maybe has lightened up a bit) she can do what most women do and have a wardrobe change simply for the sake of fashion, because they like to dress up and look nice. It would be more servicing the idea that she wants to find something that looks like a superheroine, since superheroes now abound in the world.

But she could only get to that place of wearing that when she's mellowed out a bit from tough soldier and is just trying to look fashionable. At the start, the Moonstone-inspired original Kree costume would look most appropriate if you wanted to satisfy the idea that she's a soldier donning similar designs to Mar-Vell.

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Old 09-05-2012, 05:12 PM   #161
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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She could have the Moonstone costume first, and then later she could adopt the classic Ms Marvel costume. Once she's established (and maybe has lightened up a bit) she can do what most women do and have a wardrobe change simply for the sake of fashion, because they like to dress up and look nice. It would be more servicing the idea that she wants to find something that looks like a superheroine, since superheroes now abound in the world.

But she could only get to that place of wearing that when she's mellowed out a bit from tough soldier and is just trying to look fashionable. At the start, the Moonstone-inspired original Kree costume would look most appropriate if you wanted to satisfy the idea that she's a soldier donning similar designs to Mar-Vell.
lol sexism

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Old 09-05-2012, 06:02 PM   #162
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Cs Funny Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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lol sexism
He was one of those people I mentioned earlier...He also wants Moondragon's classic costume in a GOTG film.

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Old 09-05-2012, 07:10 PM   #163
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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She could have the Moonstone costume first, and then later she could adopt the classic Ms Marvel costume. Once she's established (and maybe has lightened up a bit) she can do what most women do and have a wardrobe change simply for the sake of fashion, because they like to dress up and look nice. It would be more servicing the idea that she wants to find something that looks like a superheroine, since superheroes now abound in the world.

But she could only get to that place of wearing that when she's mellowed out a bit from tough soldier and is just trying to look fashionable. At the start, the Moonstone-inspired original Kree costume would look most appropriate if you wanted to satisfy the idea that she's a soldier donning similar designs to Mar-Vell.
You think thigh highs and a swimsuit is fashionable? That women would put that on to dress up and look nice? If she has the Moonstone costume, she already looks like a superheroine, and fits in between Cap and IM easily there's no need to strip down so that she can fit the idea of a generic supeheroine in a group of generally covered guys who have their 'costumes' as a natural part of being who they are... especially when she already has a costume as a natural part of being who she is.

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Its not prudery, its prudence. Make a movie with a superheroine who dresses like a prostitute, and the audience will react appropriately. Face it, most superheroine costumes need major revamps to get the GA to take them seriously.
Most superheroines need a major revamp for comics fans to take them seriously! Hey-yo!


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Except for one or two posters, who are being straight perverts, I don't really think most people here are asking for the Black costume unedited out of some sexual desire...this is the 21st century, we all have internet and know where to find things a lot more risque than that.

The reason I want the black one piece with the lightning bolt, the sash, the domino mask, the long gloves and the thigh highs is because that's what Ms. Marvel looks like to me. That's who she is. That's how I recognize her as a character.
I don't think it's a matter of the fans' motivation. Even the oglers to some degree want it for familiarity reasons. The issue is: how can we tell the story of a full featured Carol Danvers with the thigh highs as something she chooses to represent herself to the world? I don't think we can.

I think a case can be made for the black swimsuit, especially if it's, for instance, the undergarnment for Mar-Vell and it's what she has left of his shiny white-and-green-armor after he gets zapped or whatever (or I'm just stuck on that Ultimate uniform). For whatever reason, we can take the gloves and boots down to something someone would wear for utility reasons, and we have something that is pretty much the 'classic' Ms. Marvel, with more skin showing. But some changes have to be made for film. Domino masks are a bit absurd in life action. Some things can stay the same. Wearing a sash that what's left of Captain Marvel's costume is a beautiful gesture.

I still don't like her being so similar to Black Widow on screen, but it can be managed, I think. Not my preference, but I wouldn't be upset about it.

Alternately, she could use the costume for what it's really for and have a lingerie get up that is basically her classic costume to seduce Lawson for whatever reason. Could be fun.

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Old 09-05-2012, 07:30 PM   #164
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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He was one of those people I mentioned earlier...He also wants Moondragon's classic costume in a GOTG film.
Precisely because it is her classic costume and it's iconic, and any of her other ones look bland. It's not really that different from the alien costumes in 60s Star Trek.

If you go back earlier in the first version of this thread, you'll see how I mentioned that Ms Marvel's costume could have her with boots that don't come up so high precisely to avoid the sexual connotations. It's not the fact that there is skin showing that makes it apparently sexual, but rather that thigh-high boots are associated with strippers.

Like you, I want Ms Marvel's black costume because it is comic classic, but that's not even my favourite costume. My preferred one is actually the one she wears in A:EMH or a variation on that (such as the Moonstone version). It would certainly make her stand out more against someone like Black Widow.

I want all the MCU costumes to look as close to the comic versions as possible. That includes not putting every female character who shows legs in long pants, because that is not only plain boring but also not how they were in the comics. Thus, I don't want to see the likes of Elektra in red leather pants like Jennifer Garner wore, nor do I want to see Ms Marvel in a black leather jumpsuit.

Nearly every female in action movies wears a variation of a black jumpsuit. It has become so commonplace and boring. I want to see something that stands out like each of the females have in comics where they're actually distinguishable from each other.

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Old 09-05-2012, 08:54 PM   #165
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

Having Knee Boots instead of Thigh Boots isn't a deal breaker for me.But,it's just absurd to me that a few inches of material makes all the difference on whether she looks trashy or not.

It's like the first woman who had a skirt line an inch or two above the knee.I'm sure that was considered scandalous at the time,but now it seems like much ado about nothing.

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Old 09-05-2012, 09:02 PM   #166
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

You guys throw iconic around way too loosely. This isn't Spidey or Cap where they've worn basically the same suit for 50+ years. You guys are talking about character that's had completely different looks as well as different personas several times and none seem to stick for various reasons.

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Old 09-05-2012, 09:29 PM   #167
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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Its not prudery, its prudence. Make a movie with a superheroine who dresses like a prostitute, and the audience will react appropriately. Face it, most superheroine costumes need major revamps to get the GA to take them seriously.
I don't disagree with the fact that the *vast* majority of comic book superheroine costumes are designed to maximize T & A.

What I *do* disagree with is the notion that anyone needs to pre-emptively decide what audiences will or will not find offensive. Give people in those theater seats credit for making their own minds up. Throw Warbird out there in her most iconic costume (yes, she spent far, *far* more time in the black swimsuit than any other costume) and let audiences decide for themselves.

If they turn out to be as offended as you guys seem to be, then lessons learned. It's not like you can't change the costume for the next Avenger film. But if audiences aren't nearly as offended as you guys predict, then lessons learned on your part. Fair enough?

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Old 09-05-2012, 10:26 PM   #168
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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You guys throw iconic around way too loosely. This isn't Spidey or Cap where they've worn basically the same suit for 50+ years. You guys are talking about character that's had completely different looks as well as different personas several times and none seem to stick for various reasons.
Ms Marvel's black and gold costume hasn't stuck? I'd hardly call it some obscure outfit which she wore on one or two occasions before giving up. It's a long standing look. Otherwise we could say that Iron Man's classic red and gold from the 70s hasn't stuck. He had that for over 100 issues. He might not have it now, but it was around a long time. Same with Carol's Warbird outfit.

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Old 09-05-2012, 10:57 PM   #169
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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I don't disagree with the fact that the *vast* majority of comic book superheroine costumes are designed to maximize T & A.

What I *do* disagree with is the notion that anyone needs to pre-emptively decide what audiences will or will not find offensive. Give people in those theater seats credit for making their own minds up. Throw Warbird out there in her most iconic costume (yes, she spent far, *far* more time in the black swimsuit than any other costume) and let audiences decide for themselves.

If they turn out to be as offended as you guys seem to be, then lessons learned. It's not like you can't change the costume for the next Avenger film. But if audiences aren't nearly as offended as you guys predict, then lessons learned on your part. Fair enough?
Can you name one single poster who said audiences would be offended? I'll wait...

...

...the only thing that offends me is you using these ad hominem arguments, where you baselessly characterize the individual in an emotional way that supports your point of view instead of addressing their intellectual points. I can't really point out how deplorable that habit is without being offensive myself, so I'll just leave that there and hope you pick it up.

As for your point: Let's have a guy in a white sheet with a swastika cutting black people's heads off. There's no need to pre-emptively decide whether audiences will find it offensive. This is not some big mystery. This is: What do people exclusively associate these things with? How do they react to those things? Is it with admiration and respect due a super hero or is it with lust and gawking due a pin up girl? It's relatively simple, it's not guesswork. It's not something that filmmakers don't already do. Oh, oh! Let's do the Marcus/Immortus rape storyline. Let audiences decide for themselves!

Let's use the left sides of our brains instead of our right for a while, and see what we come up with..

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Ms Marvel's black and gold costume hasn't stuck? I'd hardly call it some obscure outfit which she wore on one or two occasions before giving up. It's a long standing look. Otherwise we could say that Iron Man's classic red and gold from the 70s hasn't stuck. He had that for over 100 issues. He might not have it now, but it was around a long time. Same with Carol's Warbird outfit.
I would say IM's classic look hasn't stuck. It certainly didn't make it into the film, and for good reason, its outdated and no longer adequately tells the story of the hero. It's just his classic look, for another era, with a shallower story and much less rationale for why it looks the way it does. Same with Carol.

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Old 09-05-2012, 11:18 PM   #170
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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I don't disagree with the fact that the *vast* majority of comic book superheroine costumes are designed to maximize T & A.

What I *do* disagree with is the notion that anyone needs to pre-emptively decide what audiences will or will not find offensive. Give people in those theater seats credit for making their own minds up. Throw Warbird out there in her most iconic costume (yes, she spent far, *far* more time in the black swimsuit than any other costume) and let audiences decide for themselves.

If they turn out to be as offended as you guys seem to be, then lessons learned. It's not like you can't change the costume for the next Avenger film. But if audiences aren't nearly as offended as you guys predict, then lessons learned on your part. Fair enough?
Doesn't sound fair to me at all. It's not about "finding out what audiences will find offensive." Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's about, I dunno, taking the high road and giving a rare cinematic female superhero a costume that's not exploitative and degrading. I don't give a s*** about what audiences will or won't think. The target demo would probably love a Ms. Marvel dressed for Baywatch. Might even bring in the big bucks. Doesn't make it right or any less gross and male gaze-y. Ms. Marvel deserves better. Women deserve better from Hollywood in general. We're slowly and steadily making progress in the fight against the casual misogyny in our pop culture. Finally giving us an A-list powerful female cinematic superhero like Ms. Marvel and then putting her in that trashy as hell costume (especially when there are other, less exploitative options that would still be comics-accurate that they could use) would just be 2 steps back, imo.

I have no problem with the black and gold look, except for the fact that she's wearing a damn swimsuit, for no other reason than showing some skin for the fanboys. No self-respecting woman would choose that for a "uniform" to fight evil in unless men chose it for her. Give her pants, and I'm good. You still get the "iconic" black w/ the lightning bolt, the mask and the sash, while the character gets her dignity. THAT sounds fair to me.

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Old 09-05-2012, 11:53 PM   #171
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

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Doesn't sound fair to me at all. It's not about "finding out what audiences will find offensive." Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's about, I dunno, taking the high road and giving a rare cinematic female superhero a costume that's not exploitative and degrading. I don't give a s*** about what audiences will or won't think. The target demo would probably love a Ms. Marvel dressed for Baywatch. Might even bring in the big bucks. Doesn't make it right or any less gross and male gaze-y. Ms. Marvel deserves better. Women deserve better from Hollywood in general. We're slowly and steadily making progress in the fight against the casual misogyny in our pop culture. Finally giving us an A-list powerful female cinematic superhero like Ms. Marvel and then putting her in that trashy as hell costume (especially when there are other, less exploitative options that would still be comics-accurate that they could use) would just be 2 steps back, imo.

I have no problem with the black and gold look, except for the fact that she's wearing a damn swimsuit, for no other reason than showing some skin for the fanboys. No self-respecting woman would choose that for a "uniform" to fight evil in unless men chose it for her. Give her pants, and I'm good. You still get the "iconic" black w/ the lightning bolt, the mask and the sash, while the character gets her dignity. THAT sounds fair to me.

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Old 09-05-2012, 11:58 PM   #172
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

What about She Hulk's outfit? Still a swimsuit and she's showing even more skin than Carol's black outfit, but it has a much more athletic quality to it than the leather and thigh boots look. Plus Jen is a lot more...outgoing than carol. Would you consider this look trashy? Would this be acceptable attire in a She Hulk movie?


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Old 09-06-2012, 12:05 AM   #173
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For me? Absolutely acceptable. Swimsuits, and other sleeveless legless getups are used for athletic reasons in addition to just advertising sex. So it's not really all that relevant what posters here think, we know, in an athletic context, such a thing is considered practical, so all we would need to do is put the heroine in an athletic context, and it would be perceived just like an olympians outfit.

Contrast with thigh high boots, which we know are exclusively associated with advertising sex. (Still waiting for counterexamples, though). And the issue is not trashiness, at least not to me. Many monogomous women use thigh boots to get kinky with their mates, as well. It's not so much that it's necessarily trashy, but it makes a character who is not about sex appear to be about sex, which, even if the story is great and the character is taken seriously despite the costume - with it's origins in T&A devoid of character arc and not radically updated for modern times like every other movie character's costume - still creates a lower quality film because the story of the costume doesn't match the story of the character, because the costume was designed and popularized when the character had no story other than being raped and gawked at. But it is more likely that when the poster comes out, people will associate Ms. Marvel with Barb Wire or CINO or Stripperella or other superheroines who's main selling point is sex - and that is where the classic costume comes from, when that was her main selling point - and will react accordingly, which means watching it in some cheap way at some later time from some titilation rather than showing up at the midnight release to see an incredible superhero.

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Last edited by DrCosmic; 09-06-2012 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:37 AM   #174
xeno000
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by flickchick85 View Post
Doesn't sound fair to me at all. It's not about "finding out what audiences will find offensive." Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's about, I dunno, taking the high road and giving a rare cinematic female superhero a costume that's not exploitative and degrading. I don't give a s*** about what audiences will or won't think. The target demo would probably love a Ms. Marvel dressed for Baywatch. Might even bring in the big bucks. Doesn't make it right or any less gross and male gaze-y. Ms. Marvel deserves better. Women deserve better from Hollywood in general. We're slowly and steadily making progress in the fight against the casual misogyny in our pop culture. Finally giving us an A-list powerful female cinematic superhero like Ms. Marvel and then putting her in that trashy as hell costume (especially when there are other, less exploitative options that would still be comics-accurate that they could use) would just be 2 steps back, imo.

I have no problem with the black and gold look, except for the fact that she's wearing a damn swimsuit, for no other reason than showing some skin for the fanboys. No self-respecting woman would choose that for a "uniform" to fight evil in unless men chose it for her. Give her pants, and I'm good. You still get the "iconic" black w/ the lightning bolt, the mask and the sash, while the character gets her dignity. THAT sounds fair to me.

This is the best post I've read on the subject of superheroine costumes on this site. Ms. Marvel is a powerful character physically, but her power is undercut by the exploitative nature of her costume. To me, it's not even that her costume is sexy; Black Widow's outfit is just as sexy, if not more so. But the difference between Carol Danvers' getup and Natasha Romanova's is that the latter is actually functional and practical as well as attractive. The Widow's uniform is something an athletic woman might choose to wear in a fight, whereas Ms. Marvel's is something designed solely for display.


The character's suit was redesigned in the comics, and I would be willing to bet that was a conscious decision by Marvel -- the studio, not the clueless comics division. They realize that they need to rehabilitate Ms. Marvel's image into something that's better suited for the movie universe. There is no reason why the studio wouldn't use her current Captain Marvel costume instead of the thong swimsuit costume of old.


Question: Did any opponent ever catch Danvers by that stupid sash and slam her her around with it? If not, someone should have. Sashes and capes are totally impractical. Anyone stupid enough to wear one deserves the consequences.

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Old 09-06-2012, 01:36 AM   #175
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Default Re: Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

I had no idea the world of Super Hero costumes had gone so PC.

In any case,I still say if a superheroine can't have bare legs in a costume,then we should ban female athletes who are not covered from neck to toe.

If they get over-heated during their strenuous activity,then it's too bad!If it's good enough for Ms Marvel,it's good enough for Venus Williams!

We have in image to uphold!

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