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Old 09-20-2012, 10:17 PM   #151
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #152
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Not sure if posted already, but

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Old 10-01-2012, 04:39 PM   #153
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Ok, so let's say the bomb blows up in Gotham. What does that accomplish? I mean is Bane only goal just to wreck havoc and escape the world. I would like to think Bane has a better plan than just some suicide mission. I mean you could have got anyone to do that. Isn't Bane the last of the league of shadows? So what does it accomplish to just blow the city up? It seems like it would do more harm than good.

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Old 10-01-2012, 05:39 PM   #154
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Ok, to sum it up and simply as possible, the plan was to "restore balance to the world" by finishing Ra's al Ghul's mission, by destroying Gotham. This is said multiple times in the film. Gotham is simply on "borrowed time," because of the failure of the last mission.

The logic of the film is that this was stretched out to five months to torture Bruce while in prison, because Talia has it in for him personally for "murder"-ing her father. She wanted him to feel the heat of the souls he failed and Bruce has to be kept alive.

Bane does the heavy lifting for this to be pulled off as Bruce Wayne was meant to do for Ra's in Batman Begins. He's not some ordinary goon that could do all that he does, nabbing Pavel, thinking quickly on his feet, breaking Batman, etc.

Bane was waiting for Talia to hit the trigger and end everyone's life, including their own. How the supposedly centuries old League was supposed to survive past this suicide mission is unknown. Some have speculated they never intended it to be a suicide mission but when Batman comes back it changes the plan...I don't know about that one.

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Old 10-02-2012, 08:53 PM   #155
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Ok, to sum it up and simply as possible, the plan was to "restore balance to the world" by finishing Ra's al Ghul's mission, by destroying Gotham. This is said multiple times in the film. Gotham is simply on "borrowed time," because of the failure of the last mission.

The logic of the film is that this was stretched out to five months to torture Bruce while in prison, because Talia has it in for him personally for "murder"-ing her father. She wanted him to feel the heat of the souls he failed and Bruce has to be kept alive.

Bane does the heavy lifting for this to be pulled off as Bruce Wayne was meant to do for Ra's in Batman Begins. He's not some ordinary goon that could do all that he does, nabbing Pavel, thinking quickly on his feet, breaking Batman, etc.

Bane was waiting for Talia to hit the trigger and end everyone's life, including their own. How the supposedly centuries old League was supposed to survive past this suicide mission is unknown. Some have speculated they never intended it to be a suicide mission but when Batman comes back it changes the plan...I don't know about that one.
The 5 month idea was not about revenge on Bruce. Thalia clearly states that getting revenge on her fatherīs murderer was just an added bonus. Bane broke Batman and left him for dead in the one prison from which he (Bane) couldnīt escape. If Bane couldnīt do it... how would Bruce with a broken back?

The 5 month idea was to prove a point, that without any sort of leash on them the people of Gotham, at large would become a tribalistic type of animal. They wanted to allow Gotham itself to prove that it deserved to be put out itīs misery.

in DCīs world Gotham City is hands down the most corrupt and crime ridden city so itīs safe to assume that in Nolanīs version this is the same as The League moved against a city when itīs citizens reached the peak of their atrocity.

The bomb had a 6 miles radius. It was mobile. close to the detonation the only thing that Bane, Thalia and the leagueīs fanatics had to do was to drive in the opposite direction the bomb was moving towards to and get to a safe distance from the blast. They never intended to die in the blast but the sudden return of the Batman at the very last moment changed their plan and the went suicidal. They split with very clear objectives: Bane was to hold the Batman until the bomb went off and Thalia was to ensure the bomb would continue to move until detonation.

Their farewell is very to the point actually, and although thyīre mass murderers itīs kinda heartbreaking too.

It is VERY unlikely the league would perish and itīs very likely there where league agents in different parts of the world to ensure the leagueīs survival in the case of itīs head being cut.

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Old 10-02-2012, 09:29 PM   #156
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The 5 month idea was not about revenge on Bruce. Thalia clearly states that getting revenge on her fatherīs murderer was just an added bonus. Bane broke Batman and left him for dead in the one prison from which he (Bane) couldnīt escape. If Bane couldnīt do it... how would Bruce with a broken back?

The 5 month idea was to prove a point, that without any sort of leash on them the people of Gotham, at large would become a tribalistic type of animal. They wanted to allow Gotham itself to prove that it deserved to be put out itīs misery.

in DCīs world Gotham City is hands down the most corrupt and crime ridden city so itīs safe to assume that in Nolanīs version this is the same as The League moved against a city when itīs citizens reached the peak of their atrocity.

The bomb had a 6 miles radius. It was mobile. close to the detonation the only thing that Bane, Thalia and the leagueīs fanatics had to do was to drive in the opposite direction the bomb was moving towards to and get to a safe distance from the blast. They never intended to die in the blast but the sudden return of the Batman at the very last moment changed their plan and the went suicidal. They split with very clear objectives: Bane was to hold the Batman until the bomb went off and Thalia was to ensure the bomb would continue to move until detonation.

Their farewell is very to the point actually, and although thyīre mass murderers itīs kinda heartbreaking too.

It is VERY unlikely the league would perish and itīs very likely there where league agents in different parts of the world to ensure the leagueīs survival in the case of itīs head being cut.
The 5 months was so that Bruce could watch it on that TV present in prison as a form of psychological torture all the way until the fire consumed the city and it was reduced to ashes. Bane said this to him in the Pit. Talia said she wanted him to feel the heat, feel the fire of the 12 million souls he failed and that's why she didn't want him killed. It's not just some added bonus. It's personal.

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Old 10-02-2012, 09:43 PM   #157
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At the same time though, Talia makes the distinction that vengeance on her father's killer is merely a "reward for her patience". I think it's a perfect storm of personal revenge, and sending a message to the world.

After all, the message they want to send to Bruce in that prison and the message they want to send the world are one and the same.

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Old 10-02-2012, 10:06 PM   #158
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Don't forget Bane's crack about Pavel's children, as well as his comment about a new era of Western civilization. Combine that with "I was born in the darkness, molded by it", Bane saving a young Talia (born in the Pit) from the evils within the Pit, plus the exposition of Harvey Dent as a liar to incite revolution....and you have someone who would break Bruce as well as make a power play toward starting widescale revolution.

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Old 10-02-2012, 10:16 PM   #159
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Magnar you are centering on just the revenge bit and completely disregarding the message to the world.

Itīs impossible that they had planned on capturing Bruce alive and then having him seeing the plan unfold. That was in fact an added bonus but the league of shadows, Thalia and Baneīs mission was not one of revenge against Bruce, it was about cleaning a cesspool of crime and corruption and demonstrating the world during those 5 months that the people inhabiting Gotham deserved to be put out of their misery.

If you want to center yourself on the revenge bit thatīs your prerogative, of course, but are missing the entire point of what the league of shadows was about and the almost 10 years it took Thalia and Bane to continue Raīs al Ghulīs plan of cleaning Gotham.

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Old 10-02-2012, 10:17 PM   #160
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At the same time though, Talia makes the distinction that vengeance on her father's killer is merely a "reward for her patience". I think it's a perfect storm of personal revenge, and sending a message to the world.

After all, the message they want to send to Bruce in that prison and the message they want to send the world are one and the same.
This the perfect synthesis of what it was all about. good form.

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Old 10-03-2012, 08:50 AM   #161
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Magnar you are centering on just the revenge bit and completely disregarding the message to the world.

Itīs impossible that they had planned on capturing Bruce alive and then having him seeing the plan unfold. That was in fact an added bonus but the league of shadows, Thalia and Baneīs mission was not one of revenge against Bruce, it was about cleaning a cesspool of crime and corruption and demonstrating the world during those 5 months that the people inhabiting Gotham deserved to be put out of their misery.

If you want to center yourself on the revenge bit thatīs your prerogative, of course, but are missing the entire point of what the league of shadows was about and the almost 10 years it took Thalia and Bane to continue Raīs al Ghulīs plan of cleaning Gotham.
What "cesspool of crime and corruption'? It is made quite clear that Gotham is clean, Blake says and the Mayor says it. That point is not even debatable, the joke Blake makes about the police being relegated to going after overdue library books is not just a passing comment. How is Gotham still a cesspool of crime and corruption?

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Old 10-03-2012, 09:29 AM   #162
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The law cleaned the streets based on a LIE. did you missed that part? the clean streets happened based on a lie and the police enforced it. Thatīs corruption right there. Corporative wise the place was not a fairy tale either and Bane was able to secure operations in Gotham thanks to a corrupt corporative.

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:31 AM   #163
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The law cleaned the streets based on a LIE. did you missed that part? the clean streets happened based on a lie and the police enforced it. Thatīs corruption right there. Corporative wise the place was not a fairy tale either and Bane was able to secure operations in Gotham thanks to a corrupt corporative.
1. Bane didn't know about the lie until midway thorugh his plan

2. Name a city in the world where corporate corruption doesn't exist. Daggett was shown as ONE out of a city of 12 million who was corrupt. Does that justify destroying the city even from an LOS perspective?

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #164
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Terrorists don't really need justification.

They're nuts.

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Old 10-03-2012, 11:01 AM   #165
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What "cesspool of crime and corruption'? It is made quite clear that Gotham is clean, Blake says and the Mayor says it. That point is not even debatable, the joke Blake makes about the police being relegated to going after overdue library books is not just a passing comment. How is Gotham still a cesspool of crime and corruption?
It wasn't when they arrived, but there was a 'rich get richer and the poor get poorer' thing going on (as Selina remarks on during the masquerade ball), which kept the lower classes under the boot. The point was to allow Gotham to return to it's former depravity, to take it back to what it was during Ra's final attempt on Gotham. Bane and Talia didn't care if the city was in that state to begin with, they just wanted to finish the job. It's a terroristic mentality and not the same as Ra's goal.

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Old 10-03-2012, 11:02 AM   #166
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What "cesspool of crime and corruption'? It is made quite clear that Gotham is clean, Blake says and the Mayor says it. That point is not even debatable, the joke Blake makes about the police being relegated to going after overdue library books is not just a passing comment. How is Gotham still a cesspool of crime and corruption?
Didn't Ra's mention in Batman Begins that the reason he wanted to tear down Gotham wasn't just the crime, but how the rich get rich while the poor get poorer, and the corporations own the city? I remember him making a "Rich and decadent" comment, but I can't remember completely what it is.

This brings up the whole Occupy Wall Street undertones in the film (I know, the script was written before the movement, but he clearly had a similar message), and how Bane attacks Bruce Wayne's finances and property, attempts to take control of his company through Daggett, and eventually just offs Daggett after Bane pretty much gives the middle finger to money anyway:

Daggett: "I've paid you a small fortune."

Bane: "And this gives you power over me?"

Plus, he was likely driven by Miranda's revenge as well. So there's that. He was chasing tail.

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Old 10-03-2012, 11:04 AM   #167
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The law cleaned the streets based on a LIE. did you missed that part? the clean streets happened based on a lie and the police enforced it. Thatīs corruption right there. Corporative wise the place was not a fairy tale either and Bane was able to secure operations in Gotham thanks to a corrupt corporative.
No...the streets were clean because of a desire to keep criminals in prison for their crimes.

The Dent Act wasn't passed randomly because Harvey Dent was a hero. It was passed to continue his work, to keep Gotham safe from organized crime. Which was not a lie, and neither was most of Dent's work against organized crime, as most of his work took place before he became Two-Face.

One corrupt corporation head and his lackey does not a city rife with corruption make.

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Old 10-03-2012, 11:09 AM   #168
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No...the streets were clean because of a desire to keep criminals in prison for their crimes.

The Dent Act wasn't passed randomly because Harvey Dent was a hero. It was passed to continue his work, to keep Gotham safe from organized crime. Which was not a lie, and neither was most of Dent's work against organized crime, as most of his work took place before he became Two-Face.

One corrupt corporation head and his lackey does not a city rife with corruption make.
You got to understand though that it doesn't matter now what he did before Dent's final day. His actions on his last day would forever out shadow his entire career before hand. His 24 hours as a psychopathic murderer is what he'll forever be known for as opposed to his white knight image and defender of justice.

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Old 10-03-2012, 11:46 AM   #169
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Exactly. people remember villains more than heroes and the Dent Act was put into action AFTER Dent died. Dent's supposed murder at the hands of a "murderous thug" is what made the idea of the act (named after him as the victim) to pass through easily.

Rah's ideal of cleaning gotham was because of the crime AND the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and that's a fact. Thalia and Bane came back to finish Rah's mission on the city.

Makaveli:
1- no he didn't, and that was another added bonus to their fanatical ideal about the corruption in the city. That doesn't change the fact that he and Thalia where focused on finishing Rah's work.

2-And I'm amazed you are trying to find any rationale behind the killing of millions of people at all man. They're terrorists! to them just the idea of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is enough to kill millions of people...

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #170
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You got to understand though that it doesn't matter now what he did before Dent's final day. His actions on his last day would forever out shadow his entire career before hand. His 24 hours as a psychopathic murderer is what he'll forever be known for as opposed to his white knight image and defender of justice.
I don't really see how killing a couple of mobsters and corrupt cops and kidnapping James Jr. after going nuts actually "overshadows" an entire multi year career of seeking justice and ultimately locking up hundreds of dangerous criminals in any real sense, but...whatever.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that what he did as a crusader for justice would realistically just be forgotten. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, and it should never have been Gotham's focus, as a city, when moving forward and dealing with the organized crime problem.

Harvey Dent's actions as a murderer being covered up really has no impact on the content of the Dent Act being written to keep criminals in prison.

What matters is what state Gotham is in, and whether the criminals are locked up, or whether they are free to wreak havoc.

The city didn't just have an emotional, nostagic reason to do what they did in putting the Dent Act into place...they had a very logical reason: Keeping criminals off the streets. Which has nothing to do with whether Dent was a hero or a villain, or who Harvey Dent was at ALL, but more to do with Gotham's needs as a city, and more to do with what he did to keep criminals off the streets.

The biggest impact the lie had? Causing The Dent Act to be called The Harvey Dent Act instead of something else.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:47 PM   #171
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I don't really see how killing a couple of mobsters and corrupt cops and kidnapping James Jr. after going nuts actually "overshadows" an entire multi year career of seeking justice and ultimately locking up hundreds of dangerous criminals in any real sense, but...whatever.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that what he did as a crusader for justice would realistically just be forgotten. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, and it should never have been Gotham's focus, as a city, when moving forward and dealing with the organized crime problem.

Harvey Dent's actions as a murderer being covered up really has no impact on the content of the Dent Act being written to keep criminals in prison.

What matters is what state Gotham is in, and whether the criminals are locked up, or whether they are free to wreak havoc.

The city didn't just have an emotional, nostagic reason to do what they did in putting the Dent Act into place...they had a very logical reason: Keeping criminals off the streets. Which has nothing to do with whether Dent was a hero or a villain, or who Harvey Dent was at ALL, but more to do with Gotham's needs as a city, and more to do with what he did to keep criminals off the streets.

The biggest impact the lie had? Causing The Dent Act to be called The Harvey Dent Act instead of something else.
I see it in (while obviously not the same set up, but similar enough) the Benoit family tragedy from 2007. Chris Benoit was one of the greatest technical professional wrestlers of all time. Without a doubt a legend in his craft, however in his final days he killed his wife then murdered his son before hanging himself in the basement. Now while his friends and surviving family knew him as a loving caring man, and fans saw him as one of the all time greats. Forever now his image is tainted and in many eyes everything he did in wrestling is long forgotten due to the horrific nature of his final days. Many can say his mental heath can easily be in question from a lifetime of undiagnosed concussions can be blamed for his mental state and a possible explanation for his actions, it doesn't change the fact that the man did those appalling crimes and for as long as man knows who he is his final actions of his life forever erase and taint what he's done before. Again not the same exactly but when you see the parallels of their downfalls you see that a horrific end can out shadow a lifetime of good.

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Old 10-03-2012, 04:59 PM   #172
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[QUOTE=MAKAVELI25;24411083]1. Bane didn't know about the lie until midway thorugh his plan

2. Name a city in the world where corporate corruption doesn't exist. Daggett was shown as ONE out of a city of 12 million who was corrupt. Does that justify destroying the city even from an LOS perspective?[/QUOTE]

It does if the savior who cast you out failed to destroy the city.

The Dent Act was basically something for Bane to rile up reinforcements for his army. Recall that the older orphans who were kicked out of the orphanage (the at risk kids) were being taken in by Bane's people in the sewers. Dat propaganda.

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Old 10-03-2012, 05:17 PM   #173
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2. Name a city in the world where corporate corruption doesn't exist. Daggett was shown as ONE out of a city of 12 million who was corrupt. Does that justify destroying the city even from an LOS perspective?
It does if the savior who cast you out failed to destroy the city.

The Dent Act was basically something for Bane to rile up reinforcements for his army. Recall that the older orphans who were kicked out of the orphanage (the at risk kids) were being taken in by Bane's people in the sewers. Dat propaganda.
Not only that, but let's not forget that Gotham is said to be "the world's greatest city". The symbolism of bringing that city to its knees is paramount, as it can serve as an allegory and warning to the rest of the world.

The LOS was always going to want to bring down Gotham, there's just no way around it.

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:13 PM   #174
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I see it in (while obviously not the same set up, but similar enough) the Benoit family tragedy from 2007. Chris Benoit was one of the greatest technical professional wrestlers of all time. Without a doubt a legend in his craft, however in his final days he killed his wife then murdered his son before hanging himself in the basement. Now while his friends and surviving family knew him as a loving caring man, and fans saw him as one of the all time greats. Forever now his image is tainted and in many eyes everything he did in wrestling is long forgotten due to the horrific nature of his final days. Many can say his mental heath can easily be in question from a lifetime of undiagnosed concussions can be blamed for his mental state and a possible explanation for his actions, it doesn't change the fact that the man did those appalling crimes and for as long as man knows who he is his final actions of his life forever erase and taint what he's done before. Again not the same exactly but when you see the parallels of their downfalls you see that a horrific end can out shadow a lifetime of good.
Historically speaking, I would imagine the truth about what happened with Dent would eventually come out. What happened regarding The Joker, Rachel, his scarring, his injuries, etc. I don't think that killing some corrupt cops and then an ATTEMPT at doing something horrible would actually overshadow something as immense as cleaning an entire city of organized crime.

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Old 10-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #175
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Historically speaking, I would imagine the truth about what happened with Dent would eventually come out. What happened regarding The Joker, Rachel, his scarring, his injuries, etc. I don't think that killing some corrupt cops and then an ATTEMPT at doing something horrible would actually overshadow something as immense as cleaning an entire city of organized crime.
They lay it out blatantly in The Dark Knight that if Harvey was caught using some of the tactics he was using (like when he tried to intimidate Thomas Schiff into giving him The Joker's plans), all the criminals would be back on the streets. His attacks on Ramirez and Wuertz would undoubtedly be lumped into the case that would be brought against the Dent Act when all the criminals' lawyers brought appeals to the courts.


The Dent Act would then get thrown out, due to being overshadowed by the insanity Dent would have been "uncovered" to have had.

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