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Old 11-01-2012, 04:39 PM   #126
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Puppy love doesn't make you give up on a normal life for 8 years.

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:41 PM   #127
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Puppy love doesn't make you give up on a normal life for 8 years.
Agreed. Rachel is someone he's cared deeply about for basically his whole life. Her words, however hurtful, were the final catalyst for Bruce to do something other than wallow in self pity. She pushed him to make a difference, to be a better person.

It's a whole different type of love than what he presumably has for Selina, who he views as a kindred spirit, and on some levels, a broken person like himself who needs encouragement. In a lot of ways, Bruce is to Selina what Rachel was to Bruce.

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:12 PM   #128
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Puppy love doesn't make you give up on a normal life for 8 years.
It does if you're as emotionally and psychologically stunted as Bruce. He very much has a somewhat boyish view of the world which is tapped into in TDKR. He sees the entire world as his problem and thinks he can solve it by putting on a costume, but as Alfred points out it doesn't work like that. He idolizes Rachel and puts her on a pedestal after she dies. The real Rachel had moved on and wanted to marry Harvey Dent. But Bruce convinces himself that she would have waited forever for him and that they were soul mates. That is a very adolescent view of his relationship and relationships in general.

While Bruce is clearly as genius and very intelligent, the way he leads his personal life was stunted ever since his parents died. He had to let go to move on.

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:37 PM   #129
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Agreed. Rachel is someone he's cared deeply about for basically his whole life. Her words, however hurtful, were the final catalyst for Bruce to do something other than wallow in self pity. She pushed him to make a difference, to be a better person.

It's a whole different type of love than what he presumably has for Selina, who he views as a kindred spirit, and on some levels, a broken person like himself who needs encouragement. In a lot of ways, Bruce is to Selina what Rachel was to Bruce.
Yup. All truth.

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It does if you're as emotionally and psychologically stunted as Bruce. He very much has a somewhat boyish view of the world which is tapped into in TDKR. He sees the entire world as his problem and thinks he can solve it by putting on a costume, but as Alfred points out it doesn't work like that. He idolizes Rachel and puts her on a pedestal after she dies. The real Rachel had moved on and wanted to marry Harvey Dent. But Bruce convinces himself that she would have waited forever for him and that they were soul mates. That is a very adolescent view of his relationship and relationships in general.

While Bruce is clearly as genius and very intelligent, the way he leads his personal life was stunted ever since his parents died. He had to let go to move on.
Ehhh no he does not see the entire world as his problem. Just Gotham. He never gave a damn about the problems of the rest of the world. He wouldn't have retired the Batman after Gotham got cleaned up if he did.

She told him not to make her his one hope for a normal life cos she thought he would never stop being Batman. But she still wasn't telling him they could never be together. She just said if he turned himself in they wouldn't be allowed be together. Bruce didn't know the real Rachel moved on. She knew he didn't either that's why she explained it in a letter.

So yeah that ain't puppy love.

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:45 PM   #130
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As much as it pains me to say it but it's clearly Rachel Dawes.

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Old 11-01-2012, 11:53 PM   #131
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Hey we agree on something. Woot.

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Old 11-02-2012, 12:18 AM   #132
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hey we agree on something. Woot.
lol

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:23 AM   #133
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It does if you're as emotionally and psychologically stunted as Bruce. He very much has a somewhat boyish view of the world which is tapped into in TDKR. He sees the entire world as his problem and thinks he can solve it by putting on a costume, but as Alfred points out it doesn't work like that. He idolizes Rachel and puts her on a pedestal after she dies. The real Rachel had moved on and wanted to marry Harvey Dent. But Bruce convinces himself that she would have waited forever for him and that they were soul mates. That is a very adolescent view of his relationship and relationships in general.

While Bruce is clearly as genius and very intelligent, the way he leads his personal life was stunted ever since his parents died. He had to let go to move on.
as I said ---towards the end,between B.W & Rachel Dawes ---> unrequited passion/fantasy
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:24 AM   #134
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PS: Rachel Dawes--deeper connection?

again,this thread is about who(as female)shared a deeper connection with Wayne--- how do you define this"connection"?

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Old 11-02-2012, 04:07 PM   #135
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Ehhh no he does not see the entire world as his problem. Just Gotham. He never gave a damn about the problems of the rest of the world. He wouldn't have retired the Batman after Gotham got cleaned up if he did.
Watch it again. After Gotham "gets better," he doesn't know what to do with himself. He has no purpose. So, he invests his entire company's future into creating fusion energy and to save the world from climate change and energy dependency. When that goes wrong after Dr. Pavel proves his device could become a nuclear weapon? He shelves the project and shuts himself away. He failed to save the world and, as Alfred says, "Is just waiting for things to get bad again," so that he can become Batman....and possibly die.

He lost his childhood love who he convinced himself was the love of his life--when she really moved on and was going to leave him anyway--and because he felt like he couldn't make the world better, he entered a deep, dark depression and walled himself up in his home for years.

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She told him not to make her his one hope for a normal life cos she thought he would never stop being Batman. But she still wasn't telling him they could never be together. She just said if he turned himself in they wouldn't be allowed be together. Bruce didn't know the real Rachel moved on. She knew he didn't either that's why she explained it in a letter.

So yeah that ain't puppy love.
She spent the whole movie wanting to move on with Harvey Dent, but not wanting to let Bruce down. After she was disgusted with Bruce letting Harvey take the fall, she realizes she wants Harvey and leaves the letter explaining to Bruce she has moved on. She honestly viewed him more as a friend than a lover and says as much in the letter. It was (very) young love that they had. If it was a great connection like you say, she would not have given up on him moving beyond Batman and would not have so easily moved on a year after he came back into her life. Bruce thought it was more, but it was in his head. That is why his brief connection with Selina was more substantial. It is because it was real.

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Old 11-02-2012, 04:40 PM   #136
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and keep in mind,that time span in Nolan's Batman trilogy is more than decades

try to figure out "deeper connection"?---before you point to "who",better to specify on "when" first

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Old 11-03-2012, 01:56 AM   #137
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In total agreement with DACrowe and rickfox. Bruce and Rachel were childhood crushes/sweethearts, and remained close in their adult years, so I guess you can say because of that they had a deeper connection based on that, but again that connection between them was lost in their adult years and that's why Rachel started to move on. I think Bruce just refused to move on because he was so determined to have the future he idealized with Rachel so it really did start to become puppy love at that point. And since she was the only woman he ever loved and he was blinded by the fact he thought she was gonna wait for him, he refused to move on for 8 years until he finds out the truth, and at this time he probably even wishes to die even more.

Until Selina comes alongside, brings life into him, and gives him another reason to live again. They may not have so much screen time like Bruce and Rachel had or known each other as long, but the chemistry sparks the first moment they meet, and the conection feels more real thn between Bruce and Rachel. I got more similarities and connection between Bruce and Selina than I got Bruce and Rachel. The ball dance scene is a great example and when they fight together, on how a like they are. I liked the Bruce and Rachel romance storyline more than some people because they knew each other so long, and te tragic element to it, but never really felt to much connection other thn the fact they grew up with each other.

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Old 11-03-2012, 06:37 PM   #138
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Bruce had a thing for Rachel in BB, mostly because they were friends growing up, and he felt that she knew who he really was.

Since he blames Rachel's death on himself, and since he thought she died having chosen to wait for Bruce, he chooses to 'wait' for Rachel out of a sense of guilt; instead of moving on ("How can I? She didn't, she couldn't"), he made her his "one hope for a normal life".

Rachel is kind of like a fairy tale to Bruce, who believes that its this great passionate thing that deserves to be respsected, etc. Once he learns the painful truth, he's able to move on. That person just happens to be Selina.

I would say he had a deeper 'connection' with Rachel, but perhaps in a adolescent way (childhood friends), and eventually a mistakenly unhealthy way (the one who died waiting for him). However, he also might have a potentially stronger connection with Selina, as they are able to understand each other and thus help each other (Bruce sees the good in Selina, Selina saves Bruce, both having to run away and hide their identities).

The important thing in TDKR wasn't that he has this big 'connection' with Selina. Hell, he was with Miranda for the entire movie. Miranda, and later Selina, just helped show how Bruce was able to move on.

I don't get the complaint that Bruce and Selina's "kiss" was unearned. It was a final kiss, not a final "I love you" (which would have been unearned). The movie doesn't show that they are destined lovers, but rather that it's the start of something new.

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Old 11-03-2012, 08:31 PM   #139
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Watch it again. After Gotham "gets better," he doesn't know what to do with himself. He has no purpose. So, he invests his entire company's future into creating fusion energy and to save the world from climate change and energy dependency.
Ehhh that's not what I meant. I'm talking about crime not energy projects. You said he was trying to save the world. The world ain't gonna die without that energy project. He was just trying to do something good with his company.

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When that goes wrong after Dr. Pavel proves his device could become a nuclear weapon? He shelves the project and shuts himself away. He failed to save the world
Nope he didn't fail to save the world he just failed to get an energy project off the ground. The survival of the world wasn't dependent on that energy project.

You're making up stuff now.

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He lost his childhood love who he convinced himself was the love of his life--when she really moved on and was going to leave him anyway--and because he felt like he couldn't make the world better, he entered a deep, dark depression and walled himself up in his home for years.
"You hung up your cape and your cowl but you never moved on. You never tried to go and make a life for yourself".

Sorry but Alfred tells it different. When he quit being Batman he quit on giving up on a normal life. No woman had that effect on him. No way does puppy love make anyone do that. He ain't a pimply teenager with a high school crush.

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She spent the whole movie wanting to move on with Harvey Dent, but not wanting to let Bruce down.
Nope, she doesn't. She only tells him once not to make her his only hope for a normal life. Then the next day she gives Alfred the letter after the Dent press conference.

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She honestly viewed him more as a friend than a lover and says as much in the letter. It was (very) young love that they had.
She said she meant it when she said they could be together in Begins. She moved on not cos it was puppy love or a weak connection it was cos she thought he was never going to stop needing to be Batman. Not that she lost feelings over him and friend zoned him. She just couldn't wait forever for a man who was never going to be ready for a relationship. So she moved on with Dent.

Smart gal.

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If it was a great connection like you say, she would not have given up on him moving beyond Batman and would not have so easily moved on a year after he came back into her life.
What ya mean like Alfred abandoning Bruce? Ya think that means their connection is weak because he did that? Nope.

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Bruce thought it was more, but it was in his head.
Nope. Bruce thought she was going to wait for him. She wasn't. She said she meant what she said about being together when he stops being Batman. She just thinks now he won't ever stop being Batman.

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That is why his brief connection with Selina was more substantial. It is because it was real.
His connection with Rachel was real, too. He was just in better circumstances to be with Selina.

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Old 11-03-2012, 09:36 PM   #140
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Ehhh that's not what I meant. I'm talking about crime not energy projects. You said he was trying to save the world. The world ain't gonna die without that energy project. He was just trying to do something good with his company.



Nope he didn't fail to save the world he just failed to get an energy project off the ground. The survival of the world wasn't dependent on that energy project.

You're making up stuff now.
The fusion project is meant to stop climate change. He can't crime fight anymore because (supposedly) Batman is not needed. So, he throws himself into another project meant to help people. He is taking on the responsibility of helping others (with something arguably much bigger as a threat to mankind than the crime rate of Gotham City). When it fails, to quote Miranda:

"But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it and isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."

Bruce Wayne did not become a recluse until he fails save the world from climate change, because he feels the need to take on personal responsibility for everyone else.

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"You hung up your cape and your cowl but you never moved on. You never tried to go and make a life for yourself".

Sorry but Alfred tells it different. When he quit being Batman he quit on giving up on a normal life. No woman had that effect on him. No way does puppy love make anyone do that. He ain't a pimply teenager with a high school crush.
Alfred also says, "You sit around here waiting for things to get worse." I don't see your point by bringing this up. Yes, he does obsess over Rachel after she dies and uses it as an excuse to hide from the world. It's because he puts her on a pedestal and convinced himself she would have waited forever for him and loves him. That in itself is a very adolescent way to view the world and her, because she wasn't waiting for him and he didn't know her as well as he thought.

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Nope, she doesn't. She only tells him once not to make her his only hope for a normal life. Then the next day she gives Alfred the letter after the Dent press conference.



She said she meant it when she said they could be together in Begins. She moved on not cos it was puppy love or a weak connection it was cos she thought he was never going to stop needing to be Batman. Not that she lost feelings over him and friend zoned him. She just couldn't wait forever for a man who was never going to be ready for a relationship. So she moved on with Dent.

Smart gal.
Not really. He did stop being Batman. Twice. She gave up on him and assumed he couldn't have a life beyond Batman. She clearly underestimates Bruce's resolve which again indicates that their relationship wasn't as strong as he thought. Otherwise she wouldn't have doubted him. It's why he can seem happier and more fulfilled after knowing Selina only briefly for a few months than he did after knowing (and investing all his emotion) into Rachel. And this is personal opinion, but she spends the whole movie pushing Bruce away because she has moved on. After his speech at the fundraiser, her initial response is to defend Harvey from Bruce, not understand he is ready for a relationship. When he says he is retiring after Gordon's "death," she says "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life," which is not a strong committal. When he AND DENT both think Batman is still needed, she is offended and angered at Bruce. She doesn't understand him despite knowing him for years. Selina understood him better, so did Alfred and even Gordon and Fox I'd argue.

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What ya mean like Alfred abandoning Bruce? Ya think that means their connection is weak because he did that? Nope.
He did it, because he thought there was still hope for Bruce to be happy even when Bruce didn't. He did it for Bruce. She did it for herself because she GAVE UP hope on him. It is a huge difference.

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His connection with Rachel was real, too. He was just in better circumstances to be with Selina.
It was real. But it did not last. The reason is they were not soulmates like Bruce thought. He thought she was the only one out there for him and she would wait. That is an adolescent notion that projects a fantasy onto her. That is my point.

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Old 11-03-2012, 10:04 PM   #141
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I'll go with Rachel.

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Old 11-03-2012, 10:26 PM   #142
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Not really. He did stop being Batman. Twice.
Bruce never gave up being Batman in TDK. He was going to, but he never got around to doing it because Dent stepped in and said he was Batman. Furthermore Bruce was not giving up being Batman to be with Rachel. Bruce was giving up because the Joker was killing people in his name and he did not want that bloodshed on his hands.

Batman: "You're going to hold a press conference tomorrow"
Dent: "Why?"
Batman: "Nobody else will die because of me. Gotham is in your hands now"

Rachel: "Harvey called. He said Batman is going to turn himself in"
Bruce: "I have no choice"
Rachel: "You honestly think that's going to keep the Joker from killing people?"
Bruce: "Maybe not. But I have enough blood on my hands"

Bruce: "People are dying, Alfred. What would you have me do?"
Alfred: "Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make. The right choice"
Bruce: "Well today I found out what Batman can't do. He can't endure this"

Rachel never came into the equation.

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She gave up on him and assumed he couldn't have a life beyond Batman. She clearly underestimates Bruce's resolve which again indicates that their relationship wasn't as strong as he thought.
It wasn't a question of strength, it was a question of misunderstanding. Rachel believed he was destined to keep on going as Batman (as we all did when we watched TDK). That doesn't make their connection weak, it just means they were not meant to be. It doesn't mean the love wasn't there.

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Otherwise she wouldn't have doubted him. It's why he can seem happier and more fulfilled after knowing Selina only briefly for a few months than he did after knowing (and investing all his emotion) into Rachel.
I'm sorry, but he barely he knew Selina a few days, not months. In the short time he did know her she stole his mother's pearls, and she had betrayed him to Bane, and he still decided to trust her anyway.

Rachel did not betray Bruce's trust. She just could not wait around forever for a man she thought was forever going to be on a crusade as Batman. She didn't let him keep on thinking that. She gave the letter to Alfred explaining everything. She was not abandoning him either. She still wanted to be in his life as his friend.

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And this is personal opinion, but she spends the whole movie pushing Bruce away because she has moved on. When he says he is retiring after Gordon's "death," she says "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life," which is not a strong committal.
That is the first sign she shows of letting him down, which was the evening before she wrote her letter. Seeing Bruce let Harvey take the fall for being Batman was the final straw. I think she felt then for sure that Bruce was not going to stop being Batman.

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When he AND DENT both think Batman is still needed, she is offended and angered at Bruce.
She's upset that he let Harvey take the fall for Batman. Why is that such an unreasonable reaction?

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She doesn't understand him despite knowing him for years. Selina understood him better, so did Alfred and even Gordon and Fox I'd argue.
- Selina accused him of being a leech on the poor people of Gotham and she sold him out to Bane

- Fox threatened to resign on him after he built the sonar machine to track the Joker

- Alfred walked out on Bruce when he resumed his life as Batman in TDKR

Rachel is not the only one who has misinterpreted Bruce or his actions, or just plain disagreed with them. Gordon is the only one who didn't know who he was under the mask. He could only judge him as Batman.

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He did it, because he thought there was still hope for Bruce to be happy even when Bruce didn't. He did it for Bruce. She did it for herself because she GAVE UP hope on him. It is a huge difference.
Alfred drops a bombshell that he's been keeping a huge secret from him about Rachel for 8 years, and then walks out on Bruce because he thinks he can't be Batman any more.

Rachel moved on with her life because she felt Bruce was always going to be Batman and the condition of them being together in Begins was that when the day came that Gotham would no longer need Batman they could be together.

What would be more cruel? Stringing Bruce along for years thinking he and Rachel are going to be together when she believes they won't be, or just being honest and telling him but still willing to be in his life as his friend?

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It was real. But it did not last.
So often is the case with some of the greatest romances in some people's lives that can affect them deeply than any other. Clearly that was the case with Rachel. When all is said and done, there's only one way to look at which character he had a deeper connection to and it's Rachel. She had more deeper effects on his life than any other.

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Old 11-03-2012, 10:49 PM   #143
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Well clearly he shared the deepest connection with Rachel in the timeframe of these movies.

But who knows what he and Selina will become; all we know is that there is the possibility of them sharing a deep connection in the future. It doesn't really matter. The main thing is that he gets over Rachel.

Who knows who would Bruce would have chose if he met them both at the same time.


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Old 11-04-2012, 12:19 AM   #144
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The fusion project is meant to stop climate change. He can't crime fight anymore because (supposedly) Batman is not needed.
Only in Gotham. You said he's trying to save the world. So why didn't he go fight crime in another city that needs him?

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So, he throws himself into another project meant to help people. He is taking on the responsibility of helping others (with something arguably much bigger as a threat to mankind than the crime rate of Gotham City). When it fails, to quote Miranda:

"But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it and isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."
Ehhh yeah I ain't going to take the world of Talia about Bruce's heroics or what her definition of saving the world is when she thinks blowing up a city is saving the world, too.

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Bruce Wayne did not become a recluse until he fails save the world from climate change, because he feels the need to take on personal responsibility for everyone else.
I ain't talking about being a recluse. I mean he gave up on getting a happy normal life when Rachel popped her clogs.

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Alfred also says, "You sit around here waiting for things to get worse." I don't see your point by bringing this up.
My point is Rachel's connection with Bruce >>>>> Selina and Talia

Neither of those had that kind of hold on his feelings. Rachel was a way bigger part of his life and that's why she had the greatest connection with him. Her death proved that the best.

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Yes, he does obsess over Rachel after she dies and uses it as an excuse to hide from the world.
I thought ya just said he didn't do that til 3 years ago.

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It's because he puts her on a pedestal and convinced himself she would have waited forever for him and loves him. That in itself is a very adolescent way to view the world and her, because she wasn't waiting for him and he didn't know her as well as he thought.
Ehhh no there are plenty of people who feel they only found true love once and can only find the one. It ain't adolescent it's just how some people feel about it. When he learned Rachel wasn't waiting any more for him then he saw that it wasn't his one and only shot at getting love.

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Not really. He did stop being Batman. Twice.
Nope. He never quit being Batman in TDK and he didn't give up being Batman in Rises because of her. He told Gordon in the hospital that Batman wasn't needed any more because they had won. The Dent legacy sorted Gotham out.

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She gave up on him and assumed he couldn't have a life beyond Batman. She clearly underestimates Bruce's resolve which again indicates that their relationship wasn't as strong as he thought. Otherwise she wouldn't have doubted him.
Whoop dee doo she doubted him. They all doubted him at one time in these movies. Doesn't make them uncaring loveless people who are not deeply connected with him.

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He did it, because he thought there was still hope for Bruce to be happy even when Bruce didn't. He did it for Bruce. She did it for herself because she GAVE UP hope on him. It is a huge difference.
Ehhh no he left Bruce because he doubted him and his quest for Batman. He wouldn't stay and support him. Rachel moved on cos she wasn't going to let him go on for years thinking she was going to be waiting for an ending to Batman she didn't think was gonna happen any time soon. She comes off better than Alfred does. Rach was still gonna be his best friend. She wasn't totally abandoning him. She was being true blue honest to him instead of being a mind gamer who lets him live in blissful oblivion.

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It was real. But it did not last. The reason is they were not soulmates like Bruce thought.
So what if it didn't last. It lasted longer than anything he had with Talia and Selina. People can really love some a lot and it can not last very long.

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Old 11-04-2012, 12:28 AM   #145
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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- Selina accused him of being a leech on the poor people of Gotham and she sold him out to Bane

- Fox threatened to resign on him after he built the sonar machine to track the Joker

- Alfred walked out on Bruce when he resumed his life as Batman in TDKR

Selina accused Bruce based on the person she thought he was at first. She viewed him the same way pretty much the rest of Gotham viewed him without even really knowing him and he was being the fake Bruce Wayne at the time, so that really doesn't count. And yeah she sold him out to Bane which was a big mistake and a flaw in the character, but she didn't do it with a huge ass simile on her face, she felt like she had no choice, and Bruce seems to really actually understand that, because he understands her including her choices. He meets the true her and despite what she's doing, sees all the potential of good in her.

I think this writer, Landscaper 01 on tumblr explains the relationship between Bruce and Rachel perfectly, and while Selina is a much better match for him
This is something that continues to bug me as I see so many Bruce & Rachel gifs/blogs posted on tumblr. I have nothing against the pairing or against Rachel’s character in the first two Nolan films. I much preferred Maggie’s Rachel to Katie’s Rachel (not a fan of Katie’s acting, sorry!), but regardless of who played her, I have never understood that deep relationship between her and Bruce. Rachel mentions at the end of Batman Begins that the “man she loved never came back”. So when was it that Bruce was the “man she loved”? Are we supposed to assume that they had a relationship before he went off to school? I realize they grew up together since Rachel’s mother was one of the Wayne employees, but there was really no back story explained as to how she developed this “love”. She and Bruce really spent no time in each other’s spheres during the entire Batman Begins movie, except for when he saved her. Then in The Dark Knight, she was clearly living with Harvey Dent…and then he sends her off to Bruce’s penthouse, Rachel and Bruce share a kiss, and start talking about how they’ll potentially be together if he gives up being Batman. At this point, we have to believe she’d already made up her mind about choosing Harvey…so why even bother with the kiss scene? I realize this is really just an issue where the writers didn’t fully develop the characters, but it’s been bugging me like crazy. I just never understood why Bruce’s great “love” for Rachel drove him into such deep mourning that he secluded himself for eight years. If she had declared her love for him prior to her death, then sure, I may have understood. But as it was, the Rachel we saw in The Dark Knight was often cold toward him, sarcastic, as if she didn’t understand his lifestyle even though she was one of few people who knew he was the Batman.

I guess this is why Bruce and Selina were such a breath of fresh air to me in TDKR. It was like two people who were very much alike accidentally found each other and something clicked in their heads. We got to see it from the beginning….them both dancing around the tension while trying to see who the other really was underneath the mask. Selina let Bruce see both the good and bad sides of herself. Selina saw Bruce during his weakest moments. Sure, I think that it was more flirtation and could have been really fleshed out more than it was, but the writers laid a pretty solid framework for them before sending them off into new lives together. I felt more for Selina as a character by halfway through TDKR than I did for Rachel over the course of two films.

Ok, getting off of my soapbox now….


Also this writer from Tumblr. This was a response to someone's really stupid comments.

The person who said this must not have paid a hundred percent attention. Okay, yeah, Bruce/Batman spent 8 years as a recluse because of losing Rachel in the explosion, but we all know that she died wanting to be with Harvey Dent. As for Selina/Catwoman, their mutual attraction begins at the moment when Bruce tells her about his safe containing the pearls is uncrackable, and he smiles. Then, later on, when Bruce finds more info on her in the Bat-Cave, saying that she’s “good” and how she took his fingerprints, Alfred says that they should exchange notes over coffee.

Later on, their “big” moment happens when he follows her to Miranda Tate’s charity ball event. We see him watching her chat with her “date”, only to be distracted momentarily by Miranda. After that, he goes down to dance with her, and he starts to tease and sort-of flirt with her (correcting her on how he needed fresh air, pronouncing Ibiza, talking about who she is, and starting fresh) while Selina plays with him as she tells him why she steals, him being unrealistic, and that “a storm is coming” before he takes back his pearls while she kisses him and takes her car by pretending to be his wife.

When Selina (as Catwoman) is trying to open Daggett’s safe, she smiles and seems to be pleased that “the Batman” has returned. Later on, after he saves her from Bane’s trained killers, she plays and flirts with The Dark Knight (who already knows that he is talking to Selina) by saying that Bruce wasn’t kidding about a powerful friend, being a desperate girl, and dissappearing like he has in the past.

Later, he comes to her “walk-up in Old Town”, where after being tested by Holly (“Money first/No, I don’t think so”), he asks Selina to take his “friend” to Bane in.return for the Clean Slate. She reluctanctly agrees, and then, Selina apologizes for his bankruptcy, with Bruce saying, “No, you’re not” (which Bale ad-libbed).

That night, after taking Batman to Bane, Selina is in for a terrible surprise when she learns that Bruce Wayne is Batman, and while almost shedding a tear, is forced to watch Bane nearly cripple Bruce/Batman.

From then on, while Bruce is in the Pit, Selina is arrested for trying to run and.kidnapping the Congressman, with Blake asking if they killed Bruce, to which she replies, “I’m not sure.”

After Bane and the League of Shadows terroize Gotham, she realizes that the “storm” is not what she wanted as she looks at all the destruction in Gotham.

As time passes, she saves a boy from two thugs, and then, is very surprised to see Bruce Wayne alive. He asks for her help, in return for the Clean Slate, despite what she did to him, saying that there is more to her.

After she saves Fox, who smiles and tells Bruce “I like your girlfriend, Mr. Wayne”, they do not meet until Batman lends her the Bat-Pod.

At first, she is very pleased, but as she and Batman begin to talk, Catwoman pleads for him to go with her, away from.the city, and save himself since he does not owe Gotham’s people anymore, but he leaves instead.

Then, we see her arch her body to blow.up the blocked tunnel after she hears the fighting, and we think that she leaves, but then, right before Bane can kill him, she uses the Bat-Pod to shoot Bane, and saying that she doesn’t feel so strong about his “no guns” rule. She then helps.him up, also looking at his knife wound, and they run off to the Bat and the Bat-Pod to chase after Talia and the reactor.

When Talia dies, Selina guesses that he will have the Bat eject the bomb into the ocean, but Batman tells her “no auto-pilot”. Then, she says “you could’ve gone anywhere, did anything, but you came back here.”

Batman points out that she did, as well, to which she replies, “I guess we’re both suckers.” Then, she passionately kisses him, wrapping her arm around him, and watches Bruce/Batman die again.

However, after Alfred tearfully tells his.late master that “I failed you… you trusted me, and I failed you,” he then goes to a cafe in Florence, sits at a table, and orders a Fernet-Branca. Then, he looks across the table, smiles, and nods at who he sees.

Bruce, wearing a pink blouse, white shirt, and sunglasses hanging down his collar, nods at him, but he is not alone. A very happy Selina is sitting with him, as well, wearing a blue dress, and the pearls of Martha Wayne around her neck, given to her by Bruce. Glad to know that Bruce was happy and he’d made it, Alfred leaves the cafe.

All of that proves just about everything that Selina is a much better companion for Bruce than Rachel. To make things better, Selina had no problem accepting Bruce as Batman, and she kissed him for reasons entirely different than Rachel’s.

Also, Bruce and Selina are very similar to each other, even as their alter-egos.
They both dress in black, have good-natured reasons for doing what they do, and have troubled pasts.

Even Christian Bale and Anne Hathaway have talked positively about the two of them, on how Bruce is “marveled” and “surprised” about her while Anne says that he owes Selina a thank-you because she reminded him there are fun people out there to play with, and that she gets his blood pumping.

So, there you go. Anything I left out?

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Old 11-04-2012, 12:30 AM   #146
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Bruce hung up the cape and cowl for 8 years because he won not because as some people put it "gave up being batman".

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Old 11-04-2012, 12:35 AM   #147
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Selina accused Bruce based on the person she thought he was at first. She viewed him the same way pretty much the rest of Gotham viewed him
Ehhh no how do you know all of Gotham thought of him that way?

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without even really knowing him and he was being the fake Bruce Wayne at the time, so that really doesn't count.
What's the fake Bruce Wayne? He didn't do the playboy act in Rises.

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And yeah she sold him out to Bane which was a big mistake and a flaw in the character, but she didn't do it with a huge ass simile on her face, she felt like she had no choice
Yup and Rachel decided to move on because she felt she had no choice and she didn't do it with a huge ass smile on her face either.

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and Bruce seems to really actually understand that, because he understands her including her choices
He never questions what Rachel did either when he finds out. What hurts most is Alfred keeping it from him all that time.

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Old 11-04-2012, 01:04 AM   #148
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by #1nolanfan View Post
Selina accused Bruce based on the person she thought he was at first. She viewed him the same way pretty much the rest of Gotham viewed him without even really knowing him and he was being the fake Bruce Wayne at the time, so that really doesn't count.
I'm not sure what you mean? Wayne Enterprises never had a bad image as far as I'm aware. Bruce Wayne had been a recluse for the last several years.

So why would Gotham have a bad opinion of him, especially after he just allowed a Harvey Dent Day memorial at Wayne Manor.

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And yeah she sold him out to Bane which was a big mistake and a flaw in the character, but she didn't do it with a huge ass simile on her face, she felt like she had no choice, and Bruce seems to really actually understand that, because he understands her including her choices.
All true. But still a flaw and a wrong doing to Bruce on Selina's part nevertheless. But she was doing it for herself. Looking out for number one.

She's just one of several characters who have hurt Bruce or misunderstood him, or disagreed with him and his actions.

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He meets the true her and despite what she's doing, sees all the potential of good in her.
What Rachel did was not questioned or ridiculed by either Bruce or Alfred. Sure Bruce was hurt that she had decided to move on with Harvey Dent. But Alfred hurt him, too. That doesn't mean Alfred meant to hurt him any more than Rachel did. Both thought what they did was for the best.

It doesn't lessen the emotional connection between them.

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I think this writer, Landscaper 01 on tumblr explains the relationship between Bruce and Rachel perfectly, and while Selina is a much better match for him
You don't have to sell me on the idea of Selina being the best match for Bruce. I fully agree and have always said so. If he was to ever retire with a female love interest from the comics I think it would be Selina, and I'm glad it was her in Nolan's universe.

However, while Selina is a better match for Bruce, the stronger emotional connection and impact on his life via Rachel cannot be denied. Both alive and in death, Rachel was having big effects on Bruce's life emotionally.

Maybe the life he builds with Selina in the future will eclipse that. Who knows. But judging it purely based on what the movies show, Selina is the better match romantically, but Rachel had the bigger connection and stronger impact on him.

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Old 11-04-2012, 01:13 AM   #149
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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I'll go with Rachel.
so the annotation of "pretty" face's "deeper connection" is---she has her own creed & code/principle---before her life come to its end, Wayne's behavior/principle is not fit in her creed /principle anymore to a degree that she could not understand his act and rebuke him in front Alfred and then formally ditch him---obviously she would not change her creed / principle to conform Bruce Wayne's ??---a perfect representation of "deeper connection" indeed
----------------------------------------

Selina Kyle has her own creeds & codes/principles---self-preservation/ self-centered ideology(which also not fit with Wayne's) ---eventually she did something to break her own creeds
& codes


Last edited by rickfox; 11-04-2012 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:19 AM   #150
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Bruce never gave up being Batman in TDK. He was going to, but he never got around to doing it because Dent stepped in and said he was Batman. Furthermore Bruce was not giving up being Batman to be with Rachel. Bruce was giving up because the Joker was killing people in his name and he did not want that bloodshed on his hands.

Batman: "You're going to hold a press conference tomorrow"
Dent: "Why?"
Batman: "Nobody else will die because of me. Gotham is in your hands now"

Rachel: "Harvey called. He said Batman is going to turn himself in"
Bruce: "I have no choice"
Rachel: "You honestly think that's going to keep the Joker from killing people?"
Bruce: "Maybe not. But I have enough blood on my hands"

Bruce: "People are dying, Alfred. What would you have me do?"
Alfred: "Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make. The right choice"
Bruce: "Well today I found out what Batman can't do. He can't endure this"

Rachel never came into the equation.

It wasn't a question of strength, it was a question of misunderstanding. Rachel believed he was destined to keep on going as Batman (as we all did when we watched TDK). That doesn't make their connection weak, it just means they were not meant to be. It doesn't mean the love wasn't there.
Still, the point is that Rachel doubted Bruce could live without Batman--in essence dooming him to this gloomy, melancholic existence--which is a dark thing to think about someone you want to spend the rest of your life with. She clearly didn't which all got back to my main point: Bruce put her on a pedestal and projected a fantasy onto her that was not real.

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I'm sorry, but he barely he knew Selina a few days, not months. In the short time he did know her she stole his mother's pearls, and she had betrayed him to Bane, and he still decided to trust her anyway.
Er, I meant after the end of the movie and we see him in Italy with Selina. But now that you mention it, he did seem happier with her in those early scenes too.

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Rachel did not betray Bruce's trust. She just could not wait around forever for a man she thought was forever going to be on a crusade as Batman. She didn't let him keep on thinking that. She gave the letter to Alfred explaining everything. She was not abandoning him either. She still wanted to be in his life as his friend.
Which is my point. How deep can their connection be if she assumed he was lost "inside this monster" forever? The difference between her and Alfred (the character who has the truly deepest connection with Bruce in these films)? He thought even after 8 years of brooding and pain, that Bruce could move on beyond Batman and be happy. Rachel didn't. That is why I do not think the connection was as strong as you guys are making it out to be. It is also why Bruce putting her on that pedestal for so long was fanciful on his part.

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She's upset that he let Harvey take the fall for Batman. Why is that such an unreasonable reaction?
It's not. For someone who is on Harvey's side and thinks Bruce is being selfish. Which tells me she has a deeper connection with Harvey than with Bruce.

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Alfred drops a bombshell that he's been keeping a huge secret from him about Rachel for 8 years, and then walks out on Bruce because he thinks he can't be Batman any more.

Rachel moved on with her life because she felt Bruce was always going to be Batman and the condition of them being together in Begins was that when the day came that Gotham would no longer need Batman they could be together.

What would be more cruel? Stringing Bruce along for years thinking he and Rachel are going to be together when she believes they won't be, or just being honest and telling him but still willing to be in his life as his friend?
Who said cruel? My point is Alfred thought Bruce could live on, happily, after Batman. Rachel did not. Alfred has more faith in Bruce. To me that is a stronger connection.

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So often is the case with some of the greatest romances in some people's lives that can affect them deeply than any other. Clearly that was the case with Rachel. When all is said and done, there's only one way to look at which character he had a deeper connection to and it's Rachel. She had more deeper effects on his life than any other.
She had a deep effect on his life, but that does not mean it was a strong connection. Much of it was in Bruce's head. She was a childhood love who grew apart from him. It is an old tale, but one Bruce held onto fancifully for far too long.

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