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Old 11-04-2012, 01:34 AM   #151
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Much of this I responded to with Joker's post, so I'll try to be more succinct.

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Originally Posted by Fudgie View Post
Only in Gotham. You said he's trying to save the world. So why didn't he go fight crime in another city that needs him?
You're taking this far too literally. Clearly, Nolan's Bruce decided to put all his time and energy into this project instead of fighting crime after giving up Batman. Why? Because it would literally help save the world. It failed. He became a recluse. This is all pretty cut and dry.

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Ehhh yeah I ain't going to take the world of Talia about Bruce's heroics or what her definition of saving the world is when she thinks blowing up a city is saving the world, too.
But this isn't about Talia, but Bruce. And the face on Bruce's face shows that he knows what she's saying is true. It is also the Nolans dropping exposition in to tell the audience what Bruce has been doing for the past 8 years and why there is a convenient proto-nuclear weapon in Gotham City.

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I ain't talking about being a recluse. I mean he gave up on getting a happy normal life when Rachel popped her clogs.
True. I agree he gave up on being happy when Rachel died. That does not mean his connection was deeper with her. It meant he was projecting a fantasy onto her that was not congruent with reality. i.e. my whole point.

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My point is Rachel's connection with Bruce >>>>> Selina and Talia

Neither of those had that kind of hold on his feelings. Rachel was a way bigger part of his life and that's why she had the greatest connection with him. Her death proved that the best.
She had a bigger impact on his life (at least during the years the trilogy is set), I agree. But this isn't who was most prevalent in his life or whose death did he reel from most. This is who he had a deeper connection with. In all honesty, I think he had a deeper connection with a slew of characters: Alfred, James Gordon, John Blake, Lucious Fox and probably Harvey Dent and Ra's Al Ghul for that matter. And yes, Selina Kyle as well.

These are all characters who understood Bruce and what makes him tick. Rachel never did. She spent more time with him than most of them and knew his secret identity longer than most of them. But she didn't understand Bruce. That is why she gave up on him and what he was doing. The others did not and understood him. To me that is a deeper connection. Though I do concede that Rachel's death was more impactful on him than say Harvey's. But similarly I could say Gwen Stacy's death had more of an impact on Peter Parker than most events in his life, but he has a stronger connection with Mary Jane who understood him more than Gwen ever did.

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Whoop dee doo she doubted him. They all doubted him at one time in these movies. Doesn't make them uncaring loveless people who are not deeply connected with him.
Alfred never did. Nor Gordon. Nor even Blake or Dent. You know, I would argue the Joker understood Bat's better. I do not dislike Rachel, but she never got Bruce Wayne and that is why it never really worked between them. She was always cutting him down in the first film after he returned to Gotham and lecturing him and then gave up on him. Yes, she is one of the most important people in his life, but her lack of understanding never let her know him.

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Old 11-04-2012, 01:36 AM   #152
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
Still, the point is that Rachel doubted Bruce could live without Batman--in essence dooming him to this gloomy, melancholic existence--which is a dark thing to think about someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.
Again I have to use Alfred as an analogy. He doubted Bruce could be Batman again, dropped a big emotional bombshell on him, and then left him. One could easily call that a cruel thing to do to someone you love.

But like with Rachel, Alfred did what he thought was for the best. Not to try and hurt Bruce.

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She clearly didn't which all got back to my main point: Bruce put her on a pedestal and projected a fantasy onto her that was not real.
She did at one time when she thought there was an end to Bruce's life as Batman. It wasn't all a fantasy. As Rachel said she meant it when she said it. It just reached a point where it looked like Bruce was never going to stop being Batman. That doesn't just go for Rachel, us the viewers thought it, too. Gordon and Alfred said Batman can endure. Joker said they were destined to battle forever.

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Er, I meant after the end of the movie and we see him in Italy with Selina.
He still didn't know her for months then either. He spent his months away from Gotham in the pit. When he returned to Gotham the last time he saw her was when she double crossed him.

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Which is my point. How deep can their connection be if she assumed he was lost "inside this monster" forever?
As deep as Alfred's when he walked out and left Bruce alone.

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The difference between her and Alfred (the character who has the truly deepest connection with Bruce in these films)? He thought even after 8 years of brooding and pain, that Bruce could move on beyond Batman and be happy. Rachel didn't.
No, that's also wrong;

1. Alfred doubted Bruce could ever be Batman again, when clearly he could. Alfred was wrong there.

2. Rachel said in her letter "Now I'm sure the day won't come when you no longer need Batman. I hope it does. If it does I will be there, but as your friend". She didn't rule out that possibility that he could eventually not need Batman any more, she just felt that he wasn't going to. But if he did she was still going to be there as his friend.

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It's not. For someone who is on Harvey's side and thinks Bruce is being selfish. Which tells me she has a deeper connection with Harvey than with Bruce.
She did have a deeper connection with Harvey. That's why she was going to be with him in the end. But that doesn't negate that her connection with Bruce was strong, regardless of whether she was upset with him for letting Harvey take the blame for being Batman or not.

If you have feelings for two different men, and one does wrong by the other by letting him shoulder the blame for the other's actions, it's very reasonable to be upset. As I imagine she would be if the shoe was on the other foot and Bruce shouldered the blame for something Harvey did.

Furthermore I've seen you say Rachel was the only one who doubted him. Not true. Alfred doubted him being Batman again 8 years later. Fox doubted him when he constructed the sonar machine to monitor the city to find Joker. Gordon only knew the Batman side of his life. He never knew the man behind the mask and so was only privy to one side of his life. As for Blake, do you think he approved of Batman doing the Dent cover up any more than he did with Gordon?

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Who said cruel? My point is Alfred thought Bruce could live on, happily, after Batman. Rachel did not. Alfred has more faith in Bruce. To me that is a stronger connection.
You keep repeating this as though anyone has said Rachel's connection was stronger to Bruce than anyone else's. Everyone knows Alfred has the strongest connection.

The point is Alfred doubted Bruce's actions for being Batman again, and then abandoned him when he thought Bruce was in a suicidal state of mind.

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She had a deep effect on his life, but that does not mean it was a strong connection. Much of it was in Bruce's head. She was a childhood love who grew apart from him. It is an old tale, but one Bruce held onto fancifully for far too long.
The only thing that was in Bruce's head was that Rachel died still believing they could be together one day. That's it. Up until a point, that was true. It just was not true when she died.

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Last edited by The Joker; 11-04-2012 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:51 AM   #153
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Again I have to use Alfred as an analogy. He doubted Bruce could be Batman again, dropped a big emotional bombshell on him, and then left him. One could easily call that a cruel thing to do to someone you love.

But like with Rachel, Alfred did what he thought was for the best. Not to try and hurt Bruce.
It was cruel but it is about motivations. Alfred did it to save Bruce and help him find happiness. Rachel did it to save herself from a Bruce she thought would be forever consumed with this darkness--a darkness she implied as selfish given he put it over Harvey's safety.

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She did at one time when she thought there was an end to Bruce's life as Batman. It wasn't all a fantasy. As Rachel said she meant it when she said it. It just reached a point where it looked like Bruce was never going to stop being Batman. That doesn't just go for Rachel, us the viewers thought it, too. Gordon and Alfred said Batman can endure. Joker said they were destined to battle forever.
But Alfred thought Bruce could live on past Batman. His actions in TDKR are all about forcing him to do so. But in the situation of TDK, he told Bruce to endure. Why? Because he knew that what Bruce did was selfless, not selfish. Rachel thought the opposite. That is the difference.


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He still didn't know her for months then either. He spent his months away from Gotham in the pit. When he returned to Gotham the last time he saw her was when she double crossed him.
Again, I meant the very end. Like the months between his "death" and when Alfred sees them. The months we did not see, but led to Bruce looking very happy and finally at peace.

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1. Alfred doubted Bruce could ever be Batman again, when clearly he could. Alfred was wrong there.
Alfred said Bruce was doing it to die out of guilt and misery. Was he wrong? Did Bruce not have a death wish? Did Bruce not get literally destroyed by Bane like Alfred predicted? And did Bruce not realize Alfred was right and literally move on past Rachel and Gotham with Selina? I would say Alfred's batting average is pretty freaking good.

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2. Rachel said in her letter "Now I'm sure the day won't come when you no longer need Batman. I hope it does. If it does I will be there, but as your friend". She didn't rule out that possibility that he could eventually not need Batman any more, she just felt that he wasn't going to. But if he did she was still going to be there as his friend.
That is her giving up faith on Bruce. Not just for a relationship, but that he can ever find peace.

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Old 11-04-2012, 01:09 AM   #154
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
It was cruel but it is about motivations. Alfred did it to save Bruce and help him find happiness. Rachel did it to save herself from a Bruce she thought would be forever consumed with this darkness--a darkness she implied as selfish given he put it over Harvey's safety.
Again I think you're dead wrong in that assessment. Rachel's motivation was not a selfish one. Moving on was as much about Bruce as it was about her. Would it be better to stay waiting around for something you don't believe is ever going to happen? To cruelly string someone along? No it wouldn't.

Telling Bruce the truth in her letter would have done for him what it did for him in TDKR; it would make him realize he has to move on and find a normal life with someone else.

The fact that he didn't after Rachel died proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the emotional impact and connection he had with Rachel.

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But Alfred thought Bruce could live on past Batman.
Alfred thought he was suicidal and can never be Batman again, too. Fox thought he was wrong for building the sonar machine. People close to Bruce make wrong judgements about him.

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His actions in TDKR are all about forcing him to do so. But in the situation of TDK, he told Bruce to endure. Why? Because he knew that what Bruce did was selfless, not selfish. Rachel thought the opposite. That is the difference.
Once again you're dead wrong. Rachel did not call him selfish, she said it was wrong for Bruce to let Harvey take the fall for it.

Do you condemn Blake for being upset with Gordon for the Harvey Dent cover up?

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Again, I meant the very end. Like the months between his "death" and when Alfred sees them. The months we did not see, but led to Bruce looking very happy and finally at peace.
Well that's assuming there was months between those two time periods. The way the movie displays it it looks like a matter of days.

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Alfred said Bruce was doing it to die out of guilt and misery. Was he wrong? Did Bruce not have a death wish?
Yes, he did. In a time like that why would abandoning Bruce when he's in that frame of mind help? He thinks Bruce has a death wish, then he goes and adds fuel to the fire by telling him Rachel had moved on with Dent and was no longer going to wait for him. Then leaves him.

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Did Bruce not get literally destroyed by Bane like Alfred predicted?
No, he got broken and thrown into a prison pit. Not killed. There's a difference. Had he been killed then Alfred's point would be vindicated. The pit not only allowed Bruce to mend, but to train himself up again. Proving that he could still be Batman when Alfred thought he could not.

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And did Bruce not realize Alfred was right and literally move on past Rachel and Gotham with Selina?
Yes, he did. But only because he knew the truth about Rachel all those years. Imagine how much time would have been saved if he told him 8 years ago?

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That is her giving up faith on Bruce. Not just for a relationship, but that he can ever find peace.
She had not lost her faith in Bruce. She just believes he is not going to stop being Batman. She never frowned on his quest as Batman, nor did she say she was cutting herself out of his life as his friend.

The only thing she is denying him is a relationship.

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Old 11-04-2012, 01:57 AM   #155
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Rachel did not call him selfish, she said it was wrong for Bruce to let Harvey take the fall for it.
wrong? another common sense?

Let B.W hand himself over and get locked behind bars is right ? and H.D can save the day?


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Old 11-04-2012, 02:09 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
You're taking this far too literally. Clearly, Nolan's Bruce decided to put all his time and energy into this project instead of fighting crime after giving up Batman. Why? Because it would literally help save the world. It failed. He became a recluse. This is all pretty cut and dry.
Ehhh no it's not. All it says is he tried to do something nice with Wayne Enterprises and it didn't work. 3 years ago. Didn't take him 5 years before that to fund one energy project.

But ya ain't talking about the relevant point here anyway. He had no normal life because he had no Rachel any more.

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True. I agree he gave up on being happy when Rachel died. That does not mean his connection was deeper with her. It meant he was projecting a fantasy onto her that was not congruent with reality. i.e. my whole point.
Ehhh except it wasn't a fantasy that she told him they could be together when he he stopped being Batman and she meant that as well. He was only in the dark about Rach finally stopping waiting cos she thinks it ain't gonna happen. It wasn't all make believe fantasy.

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She had a bigger impact on his life (at least during the years the trilogy is set), I agree. But this isn't who was most prevalent in his life or whose death did he reel from most. This is who he had a deeper connection with.
Yup I know and it's still Rachel. Ya don't connect with someone in a deep kinda way then they don't affect ya so much when they are around and when they are in the pearly gates of heaven.

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In all honesty, I think he had a deeper connection with a slew of characters: Alfred, James Gordon, John Blake, Lucious Fox and probably Harvey Dent and Ra's Al Ghul for that matter. And yes, Selina Kyle as well.
Alfred abandoned him and had no faith he could ever be Batman again. Big fail there, Alfie. Gordon didn't know Batman's secret, and never saw him for 8 years after he retired. Blake moaned about the Dent lie and that was Batman's idea. Fox was hot and bothered about the Sonar thingy and said it was wrong. Dent didn't like Bruce. Ra's had no faith in Batman being able to save Gotham. Selina said Bruce was a rich louse and handed his ass over to Bane in a trap.

Ya can't say they all didn't diss Bruce at least once. Some of them never knew him behind his mask.

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Though I do concede that Rachel's death was more impactful on him than say Harvey's. But similarly I could say Gwen Stacy's death had more of an impact on Peter Parker than most events in his life, but he has a stronger connection with Mary Jane who understood him more than Gwen ever did.
Ehhh no Gwen's death never made Peter give up on life for 8 years did it? Wasn't he like dating MJ a few months after Gwen popped her clogs?

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Alfred never did. Nor Gordon. Nor even Blake or Dent.
Yup they did. Proved it above.

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You know, I would argue the Joker understood Bat's better.
Joker said they would be doing battle forever. That sure worked out dandy.

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Old 11-04-2012, 02:10 AM   #157
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what are you doing ?... listen to me, this is too dangerous....he is using you as bait. .....Harvey, tell everyone the truth.... this is your life, you can not---- yeh,"pretty lady" was up to the greater good , no selfish motive indeed

oh love, right? the love one is under threat, the love one's life will be endangered, so better not to do what must be done in order to secure love one's safety

that is beautiful, so B.W really shouldn't be batman and fight "evil/criminal" in the firstplace becuase someone he cares/loves might under threat,might get killed?("didn't you think there might be casualties")

stop "evil" 's rampage in gotham?--shove it up,love one might get hurt,
this is xxx's life. ----save your skin, do not risk it





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Old 11-04-2012, 02:35 AM   #158
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wrong? another common sense?

Let B.W hand himself over and get locked behind bars is right ? and H.D can save the day?
Yup. That was Bruce's plan. Give up and let Harvey be Gotham's hero with the face.

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Originally Posted by rickfox View Post
what are you doing ?.
Well gee Bruce just walked up in a party and choke hold Dent into unconsciousness without saying a thing. I'd ask him wtf he was doing as well. Anyone would.

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listen to me, this is too dangerous
What a crazy thing to say when dealing with a psycho who's already killed a Judge, Police Commissioner, and a load of Cops.

.
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he is using you as bait.
He was. It was a plan to lure Joker out.

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Harvey, tell everyone the truth
The truth. What an awful thing to ask for.

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this is your life, you can not---- yeh,"pretty lady" was up to the greater good , no selfish motive indeed
Yup she wasn't. Nothing wrong with any of those lines.

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Old 11-04-2012, 02:53 AM   #159
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Yup. That was Bruce's plan. Give up and let Harvey be Gotham's hero with the face.



Well gee Bruce just walked up in a party and choke hold Dent into unconsciousness without saying a thing. I'd ask him wtf he was doing as well. Anyone would.



What a crazy thing to say when dealing with a psycho who's already killed a Judge, Police Commissioner, and a load of Cops.

.

He was. It was a plan to lure Joker out.



The truth. What an awful thing to ask for.



Yup she wasn't. Nothing wrong with any of those lines.
That was Bruce's plan. Give up and let Harvey be Gotham's hero with the face.---- plane changed,and gladly it did, a mad man can not control his rage and start to kill

Well gee Bruce just walked up in a party and choke hold Dent into unconsciousness without saying a thing. I'd ask him wtf he was doing as well. Anyone would.----what are you doing ---pretty lady to H.D(1:10:31)


What a crazy thing to say when dealing with a psycho who's already killed a Judge, Police Commissioner, and a load of Cops. ---- rich, really rich , better ask DC/M comic stories go to hell, becuase those villians of DC/M are too dangerous( I am sure they did manythings more than just kill a city's judge and police commissioner)

a load of Cops--- tell me, how many cops joker killed before pretty lady say that line "listen to me, this is too dangerous" ??

The truth. What an awful thing to ask for.---- the truth can stop Joker? the truth can stop criminal gs to screw up Gotham ?

Yup she wasn't. Nothing wrong with any of those lines.--- oh love, right? the love one is under threat, the love one's life will be endangered, so better not to do what must be done in order to secure love one's safety

that is beautiful, so B.W really shouldn't be batman and fight "evil/criminal" in the firstplace becuase someone he cares/loves might under threat,might get killed?("didn't you think there might be casualties")

stop "evil" 's rampage in gotham?--shove it up,love one might get hurt,
this is xxx's life. ----save your skin, do not risk it


while "pretty lady" saying such things to H.D(listen to me, this is too dangerous...... this is your life, you can not)---did she ever say these to B.W?





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Old 11-04-2012, 03:04 AM   #160
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plane changed,and gladly it did, a mad man can not control his rage and start to kill
'Plane' had no choice. Harvey died.

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what are you doing ---pretty lady to H.D(1:10:31)
Is that some kind of code you're speaking?

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rich, really rich , better ask DC/M comic stories go to hell, becuase those villians are too dangerous( I am sure they did manything more than just kill a city's judge and police commissioner)
Nope, she was not saying go to hell. She was saying the plan they had to get Joker was too dangerous.

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the truth can stop Joker? the truth can stop criminal gs to screw up Gotham?
The truth can save Harvey Dent, Gotham's hope for the future.

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oh love, right? the love one is under threat, the love one's life will be endangered, so better not to do what must be done in order to secure love one's safety
Loved one was putting life on line by saying he is Batman when he wasn't to try and catch a psycho terrorist. Harvey is a D.A. not a Cop. He's an office man in a suit who does his battles in a court room.

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that is beautiful, so B.W really shouldn't be batman and fight "evil/criminal" in the firstplace becuase someone he cares/loves might under threat,might get killed?
Ehhh that is not what she was saying. She was just asking Harvey to tell the truth that he's not Batman. Harvey didn't know Bruce was Batman so he had no truth to tell about Bruce.

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stop "evil" 's rampage in gotham?--shove it up,love one might get hurt,this is xxx's life. ----save your skin, do not risk it
"The fact that they're trying to kill you means we're getting to them. Come Harvey you're Gotham's D.A. if you're not getting shot at you're not doing your job right"

See mon ami? She had no problem with Harvey risking his life, just not in crazy last minute plans that seem too dangerous and risky with hardly any guarantee of success. Even though she was scared for Dent she still didn't stop him when she easily could have by telling everyone the truth herself.

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Old 11-04-2012, 03:28 AM   #161
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'Plane' had no choice. Harvey died.



Is that some kind of code you're speaking?



Nope, she was not saying go to hell. She was saying the plan they had to get Joker was too dangerous.



The truth can save Harvey Dent, Gotham's hope for the future.



Loved one was putting life on line by saying he is Batman when he wasn't to try and catch a psycho terrorist. Harvey is a D.A. not a Cop. He's an office man in a suit who does his battles in a court room.



Ehhh that is not what she was saying. She was just asking Harvey to tell the truth that he's not Batman. Harvey didn't know Bruce was Batman so he had no truth to tell about Bruce.



"The fact that they're trying to kill you means we're getting to them. Come Harvey you're Gotham's D.A. if you're not getting shot at you're not doing your job right"

See mon ami? She had no problem with Harvey risking his life, just not in crazy last minute plans that seem too dangerous and risky with hardly any guarantee of success. Even though she was scared for Dent she still didn't stop him when she easily could have by telling everyone the truth herself.
'Plane' had no choice. ---- when B.W ready to step out, at that moment H.D spoke and "admit'-- no changes of plane? no choice? B.W's mouth was glued?



She was saying the plan they had to get Joker was too dangerous. --- She had no problem with Harvey risking his life---seem too dangerous--- any guarantee of success---so there is guarantee that carbon fiber pistol got jammed right on time?

Is that some kind of code you're speaking?
--- that is the time in DVD when pretty lady spoke to H.D-(what are you doing?)

Ehhh that is not what she was saying. She was just asking Harvey to tell the truth that he's not Batman.--- and thus abort that plane to lure joker and capture him?


Ehhh that is not what she was saying ----so she didn't say what are you doing ?... listen to me, this is too dangerous....... this is your life... ??---when B.W starts to become batman and fight "evil/criminal" , can he gave guarantee that someone he cares/loves will not under threat,will not get killed? can he guarantee success of his struggling? if he can not guarantee those, so he really shouldn't be batman and fight "evil/criminal" in the firstplace becuase someone he cares/loves might under threat,might get killed?(Alfred--"didn't you think there might be casualties")


The truth can save Harvey Dent, Gotham's hope for the future.---if in comic creation, goverment D.A can save the day,be the real hope and defeat villians, then all DC/M should go to hell.


Loved one was putting life on line by saying he is Batman when he wasn't to try and catch a psycho terrorist. Harvey is a D.A. not a Cop. He's an office man in a suit who does his battles in a court room.---and the battle is be winning?(I have put every money launderer in Gotham behind the bars, but the mobs still getting its money out)


Harvey is a D.A. not a Cop. He's an office man in a suit who does his battles in a court room.--- B.W is a civilian, not a cop,not a D.A --- she said any such those line to B.W?

Even though she was scared for Dent she still didn't stop him when she easily could have by telling everyone the truth herself----H.D admited it himself, her words can change their mind?


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Old 11-04-2012, 06:50 AM   #162
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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wrong? another common sense?

Let B.W hand himself over and get locked behind bars is right ? and H.D can save the day?
I don't ever recall Rachel saying Bruce should turn himself in. On the contrary she said to him "You honestly think that's going to stop the Joker from killing people?".

When Harvey turned himself in as Batman, she did not demand Bruce turn himself in, nor did she threaten to tell Bruce was Batman in order to save Harvey.

She had every right to be upset and concerned about the man she loves. She didn't do anything to hinder their little trap for the Joker, even though she saw it as extremely dangerous to use Harvey as a worm on the hook for the Joker, when as she said Batman doesn't even know if he can get the Joker and all of his previous attempts to catch Joker have failed. She was only last night looking at Bruce saying how he cannot endure what the Joker was putting him through. No wonder she was as concerned as she was.

Yes, wasn't the whole point that Batman would pass the reigns over to Harvey as Gotham's new hero? Yes it was.

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Old 11-04-2012, 07:06 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I don't ever recall Rachel saying Bruce should turn himself in. On the contrary she said to him "You honestly think that's going to stop the Joker from killing people?".

When Harvey turned himself in as Batman, she did not demand Bruce turn himself in, nor did she threaten to tell Bruce was Batman in order to save Harvey.

She had every right to be upset and concerned about the man she loves. She didn't do anything to hinder their little trap for the Joker, even though she saw it as extremely dangerous to use Harvey as a worm on the hook for the Joker, when as she said all Batman doesn't even know if he can get the Joker and all of his previous attempts to catch Joker have failed. She was only last night looking at Bruce saying how he cannot endure what the Joker was putting him through. No wonder she was as concerned as she was.

Yes, wasn't the whole point that Batman would pass the reigns over to Harvey as Gotham's new hero? Yes it was.
I don't ever recall Rachel saying Bruce should turn himself in.---- of course she did not say it


"You honestly think that's going to stop the Joker from killing people?" ---- what kind of tone she use ? as same(deeply concern/caring/ emotional)as when she spoke(what are you doing ?... listen to me, this is too dangerous....... this is your life... ) to H.D ??

how he cannot endure ---- which sentence?

She had every right to be upset and concerned about the man she loves. She didn't do anything to hinder their little trap for the Joker-----if she want to forget her place,and turn herself from "crime fighter" to a XXXxX, be my guest

Mr Finch didn't has the luxury from her "concern"(not one bit when she want DA pushing the charge against Carmine Falcone and then stand up to mob---Things are working a little differently now, open it up)---not dangerous ? not risky?

remember when Mr Finch said"what are you doing" to "pretty lady"?

----------------------------------------------------

for H.D---this is your life.

for others--- what?


Last edited by rickfox; 11-04-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:12 AM   #164
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by rickfox View Post
of course she did not say it
And Nolan being the master of exposition would have had her say it if that was how she felt.

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what kind of tone she use ? as same(deeply concern/caring/ emotional)as when she spoke(what are you doing ?... listen to me, this is too dangerous....... this is your life... ) to H.D ??
A bit of a different scenario there. Harvey was being led away in chains and literally minutes away from throwing himself to the Joker.

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which sentence?
"I have no choice. I have enough blood on my hands"

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Old 11-04-2012, 07:41 AM   #165
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
And Nolan being the master of exposition would have had her say it if that was how she felt.



A bit of a different scenario there. Harvey was being led away in chains and literally minutes away from throwing himself to the Joker.



"I have no choice. I have enough blood on my hands"
A bit of a different scenario there. Harvey was being led away in chains and literally minutes away from throwing himself to the Joker. ---- so she didn't speak up when B.W leave that penthouse apartment, she gonna wait until B.W turn himself in and chained up by authority and then say it? right, she didn't even attend press conference,in her brain, it was suppose to be B.W "surrender" to the authority not H.D, so watch from tv is good enough? but oops, dear Harvey step out and become the one who gets "shining bracelets", now pretty lady grab her coat and sling bag and go to the cage to tell dear Harvey"listen to me, ....this is too dangerous....... this is your life." oh wait, before you go, don't forget rebuke B.W in front Alfred and then formally ditch him.

"I have no choice. I have enough blood on my hands"---feels sorry about innocent lives lost = he can not capture Joker?enough blood on my hands--- more reasons for him be determined to put down joker--only then,no more blood on his hands.


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Old 11-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #166
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Originally Posted by rickfox View Post
Mr Finch didn't has the luxury from her "concern"(not one bit when she want DA pushing the charge against Carmine Falcone and then stand up to mob---Things are working a little differently now, open it up)---not dangerous ? not risky?
Did you see her telling Harvey not to go after the mob, to leave Maroni alone? Didn't you see her enthusiastically grilling Lau to get him to spill the dirt on his clients? She told Dent outside the courtroom that if he wasn't being shot at then he wasn't doing his job right. She clearly had no problem with the dangers that come from being an honest D.A. in a corrupt city. It was a different situation with the Joker.

The Joker was more dangerous and unpredictable than Carmine Falcone, Maroni or any mob boss. The Joker even scared the likes of them. As Maroni said to Gordon; "This craziness, it's too much", and then sold out Joker to Gordon.

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remember when Mr Finch said"what are you doing" to "pretty lady"?
Yes, I do. Back when things were hopeless in the city before Batman cracked down on crime and put Falcone behind bars.

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so she didn't speak up when B.W leave that penthouse apartment, she gonna wait until B.W turn himself in and chained up by authority and then say it? right, she didn't even attend press conference,in her brain, it was suppose to be B.W "surrender" to the authority not H.D, so watch from tv is good enough? but oops, dear Harvey step out and become the one who gets "shining bracelets", now pretty lady grab her coat and sling bag and go to the cage to tell dear Harvey"listen to me, ....this is too dangerous....... this is your life." oh wait, before you go, don't forget rebuke B.W in front Alfred and then formally ditch him.
That was Bruce's decision to make because he was Batman. He took on the responsibility of being Batman and it was his mantle and his persona. Harvey wasn't Batman and Batman's consequences were not his to face. She already questioned Bruce's decision about turning himself in. That's when he told her he had no choice.

Rachel: "Harvey called. He said Batman's going to turn himself in"
Bruce: "I have no choice"
Rachel: "You honestly think that's going to keep the Joker from killing people?"
Bruce: "Maybe not. But I have enough blood on my hands"

Whereas with Harvey, he decided in the middle of his press conference to hand himself in as Batman without discussing it with her or anyone else. Spur of the moment drastic decision.

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feels sorry about innocent lives lost = he can not capture Joker?
Yes exactly. He tried hunting for Joker but was met with dead ends.

Maroni: "Nobody's going to tell you nothing. They're wise to your act. You've got rules. The Joker, he's got no rules. Nobody's going to cross him to you. You want this guy, you got one way. But you already know what that is. Just take off that mask and let him come find you. Or are you going to let a couple of more people get killed while you make up your mind?"

That was after Batman broke Maroni's ankles trying to find the Joker.

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more reasons for him be determined to put down joker--only then,no more blood on his hands.
He left that to Harvey. "No one else will die because of me. Gotham's in your hands now"

Though you're veering off point here now with this. This has nothing to do with Rachel or the topic of the thread.

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Old 11-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #167
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Rachel and Bruce, hands down. I mean, they were flirting over condensed milk, for goodnes sake.

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Old 11-04-2012, 03:13 PM   #168
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Again I think you're dead wrong in that assessment. Rachel's motivation was not a selfish one. Moving on was as much about Bruce as it was about her. Would it be better to stay waiting around for something you don't believe is ever going to happen? To cruelly string someone along? No it wouldn't.

Telling Bruce the truth in her letter would have done for him what it did for him in TDKR; it would make him realize he has to move on and find a normal life with someone else.

The fact that he didn't after Rachel died proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the emotional impact and connection he had with Rachel.
You seem to misunderstand me. I don't think she was being selfish per se or that she is being cruel. I just think she never understood Bruce well. She assumed the worst about him in BB until she knew he was Batman and assumed the worst about his motives again in TDK. It isn't that she doubted him, it is that she never got why he did what he did, truly. There is nothing wrong with her moving on and choosing Harvey or being honest with him. She is a good person. She just did not understand Bruce. That is why despite her death shaking Bruce to his core, she and Bruce did not have a strong connection. Or at least not as strong as he thought. There are a number of characters who I thought understood Bruce very well. She is not one of them.

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Alfred thought he was suicidal and can never be Batman again, too. Fox thought he was wrong for building the sonar machine. People close to Bruce make wrong judgements about him.
Again, Alfred wasn't really making a wrong judgement. Even so, it is the context. He understood why Bruce was Batman. He understood why he did what he did. I do not think Rachel did. Same with Fox. He understood why Batman built this thing to find the Joker and despite his moral disgust, helped him use it to catch the clown. Even if characters like Gordon didn't know he was Batman, it did not matter as the two of them were very much in tune with the other. It is why they can do the cover up at the end. And yes, it is why Selina despite not agreeing with Bruce's decision to go back into the fray with Bane, decides to follow him.

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Once again you're dead wrong. Rachel did not call him selfish, she said it was wrong for Bruce to let Harvey take the fall for it.
She definitely implied it. "You're right, [b]what Bruce is doing is not heroic at all."/"He's using you as bait!" She viewed it as a selfish decision to let Harvey take the fall for his own obsessions. It is not a cruel conclusion and even understandable, but it is not one of someone who has this supposed deep, powerful connection with Bruce.

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Yes, he did. In a time like that why would abandoning Bruce when he's in that frame of mind help? He thinks Bruce has a death wish, then he goes and adds fuel to the fire by telling him Rachel had moved on with Dent and was no longer going to wait for him. Then leaves him.
Good point. But he thought he was, "Saving your life!" And in some ways it did. It motivated Bruce to give up Gotham and move on with Selina...in Italy. Tough love and all that.

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Yes, he did. But only because he knew the truth about Rachel all those years. Imagine how much time would have been saved if he told him 8 years ago?
Yep. Alfred's big mistake. One which he admits. Kind of like Bruce Wayne covering up Harvey Dent's crimes. He did it out of love and regretted it.

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She had not lost her faith in Bruce. She just believes he is not going to stop being Batman. She never frowned on his quest as Batman, nor did she say she was cutting herself out of his life as his friend.
She kind of did. She was very cold and sarcastic to him through much of TDK and then when he chooses to remain Batman, she comes to the worst conclusion about it. It is a fair conclusion, especially in her circumstance, but it is not that of one with a huge romantic link to that character.

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Old 11-04-2012, 03:19 PM   #169
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Ehhh no it's not. All it says is he tried to do something nice with Wayne Enterprises and it didn't work. 3 years ago. Didn't take him 5 years before that to fund one energy project.

But ya ain't talking about the relevant point here anyway. He had no normal life because he had no Rachel any more.
Yeah, it kind of off in the weeds, isn't it?

Still, I have to add that it is very believable that it would take five years to make that. In fact, if a tech company announced it was investing billions into research of fusion (something that does not exist) and succeeded at making it five years later, I would be awe-strucked. And it would take a massive fortune and desire to change the world to do that.

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Yup I know and it's still Rachel. Ya don't connect with someone in a deep kinda way then they don't affect ya so much when they are around and when they are in the pearly gates of heaven.
He loved Rachel. But he thought of her as someone (waiting forever for him) that was not how she really was. She thought of him as someone (unable to ever quit Batman and acting out of selfishness) he really wasn't. They did not get each other. There was love, but that does not mean the connection is as strong as he thinks.

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Alfred abandoned him and had no faith he could ever be Batman again. Big fail there, Alfie. Gordon didn't know Batman's secret, and never saw him for 8 years after he retired. Blake moaned about the Dent lie and that was Batman's idea. Fox was hot and bothered about the Sonar thingy and said it was wrong. Dent didn't like Bruce. Ra's had no faith in Batman being able to save Gotham. Selina said Bruce was a rich louse and handed his ass over to Bane in a trap.

Ya can't say they all didn't diss Bruce at least once. Some of them never knew him behind his mask.
Alfred pegged Bruce perfectly. Bruce showing up in Italy at the end was his way of acknowledging that to someone he felt he wronged in their last meeting. The others may have doubted certain actions by Bruce, but they understood him better than Rachel ever did. And Gordon nor Fox ever assumed the worst about him.

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Joker said they would be doing battle forever. That sure worked out dandy.
But there romance had so much more passion in it.

He got into the head of Batman better than Rachel ever did.

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Old 11-04-2012, 04:33 PM   #170
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Did you see her telling Harvey not to go after the mob, to leave Maroni alone? Didn't you see her enthusiastically grilling Lau to get him to spill the dirt on his clients? She told Dent outside the courtroom that if he wasn't being shot at then he wasn't doing his job right. She clearly had no problem with the dangers that come from being an honest D.A. in a corrupt city. It was a different situation with the Joker.

The Joker was more dangerous and unpredictable than Carmine Falcone, Maroni or any mob boss. The Joker even scared the likes of them. As Maroni said to Gordon; "This craziness, it's too much", and then sold out Joker to Gordon.



Yes, I do. Back when things were hopeless in the city before Batman cracked down on crime and put Falcone behind bars.



That was Bruce's decision to make because he was Batman. He took on the responsibility of being Batman and it was his mantle and his persona. Harvey wasn't Batman and Batman's consequences were not his to face. She already questioned Bruce's decision about turning himself in. That's when he told her he had no choice.

Rachel: "Harvey called. He said Batman's going to turn himself in"
Bruce: "I have no choice"
Rachel: "You honestly think that's going to keep the Joker from killing people?"
Bruce: "Maybe not. But I have enough blood on my hands"

Whereas with Harvey, he decided in the middle of his press conference to hand himself in as Batman without discussing it with her or anyone else. Spur of the moment drastic decision.

Yes exactly. He tried hunting for Joker but was met with dead ends.

Maroni: "Nobody's going to tell you nothing. They're wise to your act. You've got rules. The Joker, he's got no rules. Nobody's going to cross him to you. You want this guy, you got one way. But you already know what that is. Just take off that mask and let him come find you. Or are you going to let a couple of more people get killed while you make up your mind?"

That was after Batman broke Maroni's ankles trying to find the Joker.



He left that to Harvey. "No one else will die because of me. Gotham's in your hands now"

Though you're veering off point here now with this. This has nothing to do with Rachel or the topic of the thread.

That was Bruce's decision to make because he was Batman. He took on the responsibility of being Batman and it was his mantle and his persona. Harvey wasn't Batman and Batman's consequences were not his to face. She already questioned Bruce's decision about turning himself in. That's when he told her he had no choice. --- That was H.D's decision to make because he support Batman.he feels "pround to standing up for what is right",He took on the responsibility of doing"what is right"
...if I am up to it.

Though you're veering off point here now with this. This has nothing to do with Rachel or the topic of the thread
-----really?so Rachel didn't say those lines?Rachel didn't take these actions? and those lines and actions has nothing to do with B.W?those lines and actions do not represent her attitude/thoughts towards B.W?

Did you see her telling Harvey not to go after the mob, to leave Maroni alone? Didn't you see her enthusiastically grilling Lau to get him to spill the dirt on his clients? She told Dent outside the courtroom that if he wasn't being shot at then he wasn't doing his job right. She clearly had no problem with the dangers that come from being an honest D.A. in a corrupt city. It was a different situation with the Joker.

The Joker was more dangerous and unpredictable than Carmine Falcone, Maroni or any mob boss. The Joker even scared the likes of them. As Maroni said to Gordon; "This craziness, it's too much", and then sold out Joker to Gordon.
------so when fighting wars aganist crime, it is "pretty lady"s call to judge which event is too dangerous and which one is not ,when come to the so called" too dangerous",it is time to treat love one with---"listen to me, ....this is too dangerous....... this is your life."

Did you see her telling Harvey not to go after the mob, to leave Maroni alone? Didn't you see her enthusiastically grilling Lau to get him to spill the dirt on his clients? She told Dent outside the courtroom that if he wasn't being shot at then he wasn't doing his job right.---- when she did not fully accept H.D,when she did not make her mind clear that she ready to marry H.D


The Joker was more dangerous and unpredictable than Carmine Falcone, Maroni or any mob boss.
---when come to death, there is no "more",there is no "than"-----got few bullets in your body/blow up by oil drums

may be she can tell Mr Finch when they meet up in heaven or hell--- get killed by bullets is not as risky/ dangerous as when you get killed by oil drums


Last edited by rickfox; 11-05-2012 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:51 PM   #171
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

Maybe the real question here is which female character shared the healthiest connection with Bruce? The connection between Bruce and Rachel, what was left of it at least, sure wasn't healthy, to keep him pining for her all those years.

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Old 11-06-2012, 02:09 AM   #172
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Nuff said...



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Old 11-06-2012, 06:30 AM   #173
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Default Re: Which female character shared a deeper connection w/ Bruce?

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Look, I think it's generally understood that Nolan can't write female characters. But out of the meager few that he wrote, which babe do you think had the best relationship/connection with Bruce Wayne? I would actually (from the acting) go with Talia just because of Bruce's reaction at her betrayal. I mean, he dropped his Batman voice...
Selina Kyle.

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Old 11-06-2012, 06:34 AM   #174
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Interestingly enough, Selina is younger than all of Bruce's romantic pairings within the trilogy. I'm pretty sure that Rachel and Talia are the same age as Bruce, but Selina is like at least 7 years younger than he is I believe.

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Old 11-06-2012, 07:05 AM   #175
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Nuff said...



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