The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > General Movies > DC Comics Films

View Poll Results: The reboot should be based on....
A) Realism 3 2.59%
B) Dark Imagination 39 33.62%
C) Silliness 2 1.72%
D) Both A and B 64 55.17%
E) Other 8 6.90%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2012, 10:37 AM   #151
DaveMoral
Side-Kick
 
DaveMoral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,606
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Good post. A lot of people under estimate just how loyal to the comics the 1966 Batman show was.

I love that show. A cult classic.
I don't like that show. It performed a miracle though, it saved Batman from cancellation. And that cancellation was in the wings at least in part because of how ridiculous Batman had become in comics. The best thing to happen to Batman since his creation was O'Neil/Adams.

DaveMoral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 10:55 AM   #152
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Unpopular opinion; but I think there was better Batman material in Batman Forever than there was in Returns. All that stuff with Bruce struggling with the nightmares of his parents death, the giant bat coming at him in the cave, how he connected with Dick and related their tragedies, the scenes with Chase and how he explains how conflicted he is etc.

I thought all of this was good stuff and more material than Keaton had to work with in Returns.
Every time I think of BF, though, I think of Batman smiling. Kinda ruins the idea of the film as a whole.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 10:55 AM   #153
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 35,509
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
The key difference being that in BR Bruce's arc had some real payoff while in BF it really didn't. That may be no fault of Schumacher himself but the fault of the studio because they mandated that key scenes be removed yet the fact still remains the same.

Bruce Wayne's internal struggle in BF is pretty ineffective because it comes across as an afterthought in the movie due to how shoddily explored it all is in the final cut. In Burton's movie it at least feels more like there is a beginning, middle and end to his internal struggle because the exploration of it all is much more dominant in the film.
I'm not sure what you mean by there being no pay off? Bruce's resolution at the end of the movie is accept that he is not Batman now because he has to be, but because he chooses to be.

This is something that was very lightly touched on in Batman 1989, where Bruce simply tells Vicki he tried to avoid being Batman but he couldn't because nobody else could do it. He talked about it as though it was a penance.

What was the pay off for you in Batman Returns with Bruce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMoral View Post
I don't like that show. It performed a miracle though, it saved Batman from cancellation. And that cancellation was in the wings at least in part because of how ridiculous Batman had become in comics. The best thing to happen to Batman since his creation was O'Neil/Adams.
Batman had been campy in the comics long before the 1966 show came along. The show saved Batman from cancellation in the comics. It made Batman a cultural icon.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 10:57 AM   #154
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 35,509
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Every time I think of BF, though, I think of Batman smiling. Kinda ruins the idea of the film as a whole.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:02 AM   #155
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I'm not a fan of BR either though, lol. Only Batfilm outside of Nolan's trilogy that I cherish is '89 Batman.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:04 AM   #156
Cain
"West West Y'all"
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Live from New York
Posts: 4,937
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by there being no pay off? Bruce's resolution at the end of the movie is accept that he is not Batman now because he has to be, but because he chooses to be.
Let me rephrase a bit. Yeah there is a technical payoff by the film's end but it comes across as very inorganic and rushed because the film was so shoddy when it came to exploring that subplot. Where as the resolution to Grayson's subplot and even Riddler's seemed more natural because the movie sold their subplots better than Bruce's.

Quote:
What was the pay off for you in Batman Returns with Bruce?
Realizing what he had become by seeing a warped reflection of it in both Selina and Cobblepot. Then recognizing his issues and owning up to them after that fact (Ie: "You might be right", "Wrong on both counts").

__________________
Pull list: Saga, Thief of Thieves, The Manhattan Projects, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Harbinger, X-O Manowar, Bloodshot, Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Green Lantern, Red Lanterns, Justice League 3000, Superman, Action Comics, Detective Comics, Batman & ____, Batman, Red Hood & The Outlaws, The Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, All-Star Western, Earth 2, Worlds' Finest, Superman/Wonder Woman, Daredevil, Superior Spider-Man, All-New X-Men
Cain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #157
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 35,509
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
I'm not a fan of BR either though, lol. Only Batfilm outside of Nolan's trilogy that I cherish is '89 Batman.
Is it Batman smiling that spoils them for you?

If so steer clear of BTAS then;





Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Let me rephrase a bit. Yeah there is a technical payoff by the film's end but it comes across as very inorganic and rushed because the film was so shoddy when it came to exploring that subplot. Where as the resolution to Grayson's subplot and even Riddler's seemed more natural because the movie sold their subplots better than Bruce's.
Ok you'll have to elaborate for me a bit on that. How did it come off as shoddy? Bruce got to the point where he shut down his Batcave and was stopping being Batman. He was intending on telling Chase everything, until the villains interrupted. I could understand if they addressed it but never really went anywhere with it. I hate when movies do that.

Quote:
Realizing what he had become by seeing a warped reflection of it in both Selina and Cobblepot. Then recognizing his issues and owning up to them after that fact (Ie: "You might be right", "Wrong on both counts").
I didn't see that as a pay off since he was never conflicted over this during the movie. If he was and then he finally realized what he had become and owned up to it then I could see it as being a kind of resolution. But that conflict is not there in Returns. Not that I saw.

I mean minutes before both of those quotes he had just tried to squash the Penguin to death with his Batskiboat lol.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 11-22-2012 at 11:30 AM.
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:49 AM   #158
shauner111
Side-Kick
 
shauner111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 9,212
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Unpopular opinion; but I think there was better Batman material in Batman Forever than there was in Returns. All that stuff with Bruce struggling with the nightmares of his parents death, the giant bat coming at him in the cave, how he connected with Dick and related their tragedies, the scenes with Chase and how he explains how conflicted he is etc.

I thought all of this was good stuff and more material than Keaton had to work with in Returns.
I agree. Forever is WAY more of a Batman movie than Returns. There was no payoff with Keatons Wayne in Batman Returns, i felt that Kilmers Wayne had the better payoff. He had more to chew on as an actor than Michael did. I wasn't satisfied with Bruce's arc in Returns, i felt there was nothing there at all, it was like he was a guest star in Catwomans world or Penguins world.

I think it was Michael Uslan who said that Forever was like the late 40's Batman & Robin adventures of the comics, and that Returns represented some of the 90's stories where Bats is just really cold and emotionless. I agree with the former but i'm not aware of which stories he's talking abou from the 90s. If you guys can help me out here..because the 90s comics/graphic novels im familiar with aren't like that at all. Maybe ive subconsciously avoided those because they remind me of Burtons Returns. Quite frankly i can never pinpoint what era Returns represents. I still think it's the furthest from anything "Batman" despite the darkness. It's just simply Tim Burton being Tim Burton.


Last edited by shauner111; 11-22-2012 at 11:54 AM.
shauner111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:53 AM   #159
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 35,509
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
I agree. Forever is WAY more of a Batman movie than Returns. There was no payoff with Keatons Wayne in Batman Returns, i felt that Kilmers Wayne had the better payoff. He had more to chew on as an actor than Michael did. I wasn't satisfied with Bruce's arc in Returns, i felt there was nothing there at all, it was like he was a guest star in Catwomans world or Penguins world.
I feel the same way, and that's coming from someone who is a fan of Returns, but it's because of the enchanting performances by Michelle and Danny. I feel it's their movie and Batman is just a reactionary character without a story of his own.

Michael did fine with what he had, but it wasn't much. Not his fault. You can only work with the material you're given.

Quote:
I think it was Michael Uslan who said that Forever was like the late 40's Batman & Robin adventures of the comics, and that Returns represented some of the 90's stories where Bats is just really cold and emotionless. I'm not aware of which stories he's talking about, if you guys can help me out here..because the 90s comics/graphic novels im familiar with aren't like that at all. Maybe ive avoided those ones because they remind me of Burtons Returns. Quite frankly i can never pinpoint what era Returns represents. I still think it's the furthest from anything "Batman" despite the darkness.
I think they probably mean the early comics in the first couple of years (1939/1940) where Batman is a killer. They put a stop to that after there was some controversy in Batman #1 of seeing Batman shooting down someone with a gun from his batplane.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:54 AM   #160
BlueLightning
Caballero de la Luz
 
BlueLightning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,126
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

I actually see Burton's Batman closer to the first Detective Comics with Batman. You know all of that "Death... to Doctor Death", and the Schumacher flicks more closely to the following more upbeat years. Forever had a lot of potential, though I disagree a little with Batman's character resolution. I didn't like Kilmer performance at all, so I have a hard time trying to watch it again.

__________________
"Madness is the emergency exit. You can just step outside, and close the door on all those dreadful things that happened. You can lock them away... forever." The Joker

"Batman: Promises"

"Harley Quinn: Ridiculous Thoughts"
"La Broma Mortal"
BlueLightning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 12:07 PM   #161
shauner111
Side-Kick
 
shauner111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 9,212
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I feel the same way, and that's coming from someone who is a fan of Returns, but it's because of the enchanting performances by Michelle and Danny. I feel it's their movie and Batman is just a reactionary character without a story of his own.
I like returns too, but it has more to do with Michelle and the cast as a whole, plus the score and designs were cool (not in a Batman kinda way tho) but everything else i really can't stand. Ya he really is just a reactionary character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Michael did fine with what he had, but it wasn't much. Not his fault. You can only work with the material you're given.
Yeah Keatons always great no matter what he's given, but it's just such a waste for a guy like him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I think they probably mean the early comics in the first couple of years (1939/1940) where Batman is a killer. They put a stop to that after there was some controversy in Batman #1 of seeing Batman shooting down someone with a gun from his batplane.
Yeah i see what u mean but Uslan says Batman 89 is the 39' version with some Burton tweaks (which he's right), Returns was the 90's cold and emotionless Bats, Forever was the late 40s, B & R was a nod to the 60s show. I agree with all of what he's saying, but the whole 90s thing is a headscratcher for me. I thought it was just my lack of knowledge of those 90's stories he's talking about.

shauner111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 12:31 PM   #162
Cain
"West West Y'all"
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Live from New York
Posts: 4,937
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Is it Batman smiling that spoils them for you?

Ok you'll have to elaborate for me a bit on that. How did it come off as shoddy? Bruce got to the point where he shut down his Batcave and was stopping being Batman. He was intending on telling Chase everything, until the villains interrupted. I could understand if they addressed it but never really went anywhere with it. I hate when movies do that.
It feels really random. It doesn't even answer the questions of why he would give it all up in the first place. I excuse that if the stylistic approach to your film is say an expressionistic one & you're using many other elements to get that point across outside of the protagonist but that wasn't the case; BF was very literal with presenting it's concepts.

"Batman is no more"

"why Bruce?"

"because I killed my parents"

"ummm....ok. So why would that guilt kill Batman now? why has it never occurred to you before almost an hour or so into this movie? and isn't the point of being Batman your self inflicted punishment for killing your parents anyway so why absolve yourself of said punishment if you still feel guilt?"

Then we get a cheeky resolution out of nowhere that rings false because nothing was ever really truly explored. BF works for me only when it comes to Grayson really. That excellent scene between Bruce and Dick in the cave rings true because we've seen why this Batman may have that outlook thanks to BF's predecessors for example.

Bruce's subplot on the other hand has no real precedent when you deconstruct it and seems like it was just put in there to give him something to mope about and not because it was a well structured base point for the rest of the film to build up from.


Quote:
I didn't see that as a pay off since he was never conflicted over this during the movie. If he was and then he finally realized what he had become and owned up to it then I could see it as being a kind of resolution. But that conflict is not there in Returns. Not that I saw.

I mean minutes before both of those quotes he had just tried to squash the Penguin to death with his Batskiboat lol.
Never conflicted? again it boils down to the stylistic approach of the film. This is expressionistic cinema. You can't expect Bruce to literally dictate "hey man I have a conflict and it's XYZ" because it's not the approach BR had unlike BF. It is something that is projected through the environment in the film, the other characters in the film coupled with the body language and performance of the principle actor himself. It's the ultimate cinematic equivalent to the famous "show don't tell" rule of another popular visual medium; comic books.

You know how I know Bruce Wayne is conflicted in that movie?

It starts out with the man self loathing in his cave. Obsessed with nothing but his mission as the Batman. Consumed by his beast. Waiting for the signal to come like a junkie waiting for his fix. It's the only time he even feels alive anymore.

To the point that when another sideshow act comes out of nowhere into Gotham he feels threatened about not being the only freakshow in town anymore. He feels that could potentially hinder Batman's stance in the eyes of the public. Rendering his only reason for living at this point to be moot in his eyes.

As you can see by his reaction to Cobblepot's first appearance and his obsession with proving that he's the only freak in town worthy of Gotham's love by putting The Penguin under a giant magnifying glass. Alfred even literally brings that up through dialogue later on ("must you be the only lonely man-beast in town")

You also see him struggle with wanting a sense of normalcy in his life again. He's still very much a child emotionally. Scarred and obsessed with his toys including his favorite action figure (the Batman persona) but like every child part of him also longs to be "normal" and not just a "freak". Something he tries to work on as Bruce Wayne by reaching out to Selina and trying to have a normal dating life while still being conflicted with his dual nature.

Since he's so obsessed with the Batman though it proves difficult for him to break through to Selina and "force" normalcy into his life because his own emotional imbalance (his obsessive duality) is something she recognizes within herself later on. It is then when he sees how far gone they both have become through seeing her actions in coping with her trauma that he recognizes his problem. It's why he tells her they're basically one and the same.

He sees how his obsession has made him blind to the reality of his world (recognizing that he's not above the law and that he's become nothing but an obsessed shell of a man) by seeing this woman who sees herself above the law and became a shell of what she could've been right in fron of his face. BF even plays around with that which is why to me BF works much better when I watch all 3 movies back to back and not BF stand alone. You see how that realization has affected the nature of this Batman in how he carries himself in BF more clearly when you view it within that context.

You may not have seen any of this but I wasn't the only one who did. Many movie reviewers (especially cinephiles who aren't into comic books) saw that because it's very clearly projected in the language that the film speaks if you understand that language (expressionistic cinema). It's one of the things the movie is usually praised for. Hell many people on this very forum over the years especially in the misc bat boards have also recognized this. Something I'm sure you're familiar with considering that you've been a regular poster over there for years now.

__________________
Pull list: Saga, Thief of Thieves, The Manhattan Projects, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Harbinger, X-O Manowar, Bloodshot, Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Green Lantern, Red Lanterns, Justice League 3000, Superman, Action Comics, Detective Comics, Batman & ____, Batman, Red Hood & The Outlaws, The Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, All-Star Western, Earth 2, Worlds' Finest, Superman/Wonder Woman, Daredevil, Superior Spider-Man, All-New X-Men

Last edited by Cain; 11-22-2012 at 12:38 PM.
Cain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 01:14 PM   #163
Rodrigo90
Boy Wonder
 
Rodrigo90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Geordie Shore
Posts: 17,665
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Cain, you've just said everything I've been trying to say for donkeys lol

To shorten Keaton's Batman...He suffers from schizoid personality disorder, more or less, with psychopathic tendancies.

Rodrigo90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 01:18 PM   #164
PB210
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
Yes the show was true to some comics at the time but the tone wasn't the true original depiction of Batman. So it's a weird thing. The silver-age is one thing but that kind of goofiness we got on the show was a far cry from the first few years of his inception.
By the time Adam West came around, that series had featured a boy sidekick in pixie shoes and shaved legs for decades.

PB210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 01:35 PM   #165
PB210
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
Yes the show was true to some comics at the time but the tone wasn't the true original depiction of Batman. So it's a weird thing. The silver-age is one thing but that kind of goofiness we got on the show was a far cry from the first few years of his inception. And a far cry to what became of the Bat when the 70's/80's rolled around. So it might be a lot more loyal to its era of comics while Batman Returns wasn't loyal to anything really...but at least 1992's version was a dark depiction which should be the first thing any Batman fan would ask for.

There's a lot of goofy stuff in the 50s and 60s and if Adam Wests take on Batman took from those stories...fine....but those goofy stories weren't the original intention of the character. Neither were the sci-fi stories and team-ups with various superheroes. It all happened and it's cool but Batman was meant to be a dark, tragic, serious character who battles dark criminals in Gotham City. That's why people ignore the fact that West might have been close to certain comics. They may see the source material as ridiculous.

True. Batman Returns was just as campy as Batman Forever but it was like a really dark comedy. I think the change in look is what threw people off when Forever came around, but the material was no different. People exaggerated too much.
By the time Adam West came around, that series had featured a boy sidekick in pixie shoes and shaved legs for decades.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...-a-prostitute/

Other than two poignant panels of a young
Bruce crying over his dead parents, the early Batman is devoid of angst.
The angst that we now associate with the character is not present in
1939-40; it is, in fact, a product of the 1970s, extrapolated by writers who felt
a need to give Bruce Wayne an inner darkness to match his original dark
surroundings. (Even then, the 1970s were not fully given over to angst –
Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s Batman of so many adventurous The Brave and
the Bold tales is actually quite a good match for Adam West’s interpretation.)
The 1939-40 Batman is a straightforward hero surrounded by darkness but
not dark inside, much as the TV Batman is a straightforward hero in
exaggerated surroundings.


PB210
December 24, 2011 at 8:05 am

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/11/got...fifteenth-mile

Listen: Bat-angst is a thing of the 1970s. It didn’t exist previously. Fans today are made to believe that the brooding Batman, the shadowy figure warring against crime while anguishing over the murder of his parents is all there is, all there ever was—but it just ain’t so. That completely ignores more than three decades of the character’s stories and development, and that’s a crime worthy of our hero’s attention.

PB210 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 01:39 PM   #166
Cain
"West West Y'all"
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Live from New York
Posts: 4,937
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB210 View Post

Listen: Bat-angst is a thing of the 1970s. It didn’t exist previously. Fans today are made to believe that the brooding Batman, the shadowy figure warring against crime while anguishing over the murder of his parents is all there is, all there ever was—but it just ain’t so. That completely ignores more than three decades of the character’s stories and development, and that’s a crime worthy of our hero’s attention.

Yeah Batman was quipping and swashbuckling even back when he was breaking necks and hanging monster men off his batplane. He had mental stability and real relationships with people since 1939. So when people try to say that the "brooding loner" is the way things should be since it's closer to his roots it pretty much exposes to me that they've never actually read any golden age Batman comics.

__________________
Pull list: Saga, Thief of Thieves, The Manhattan Projects, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Harbinger, X-O Manowar, Bloodshot, Archer & Armstrong, Shadowman, Green Lantern, Red Lanterns, Justice League 3000, Superman, Action Comics, Detective Comics, Batman & ____, Batman, Red Hood & The Outlaws, The Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, All-Star Western, Earth 2, Worlds' Finest, Superman/Wonder Woman, Daredevil, Superior Spider-Man, All-New X-Men
Cain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 01:43 PM   #167
Rodrigo90
Boy Wonder
 
Rodrigo90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Geordie Shore
Posts: 17,665
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Bale's Batman was the perfect blend of Golden Age and modern comics.

Rodrigo90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 02:50 PM   #168
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Is it Batman smiling that spoils them for you?

If so steer clear of BTAS then;



No offense Joker, but it seems like you always try to start an argument, lol.

It's a smiling Batman in what's supposed to be a character to be taken serious that gets me frustrated. A smiling Batman in a cartoon, I can look past. A campy Adam West Batman, I can get past. Even though the storylines themselves in Batman Returns and Batman Forever seemed "off the wall", I did not enjoy seeing Bats smiling.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 03:58 PM   #169
shauner111
Side-Kick
 
shauner111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 9,212
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Actually, i didnt enjoy him smiling in Returns or Forever either. I hated that, it looks ridiculous and it's just not how i see Batman. It was a little more reasonable in Forever (like it would be for Adam West or George Clooney) because the look is much lighter and a lot of that has to do with Robins inclusion. But in Returns, you have this dark Batman, dark city, dark villains, yet the screenplay is completely camp and Batman is smiling. It's just "off" to me.

Now about the Golden Age comics...yes im not really a reader of that era. I respect it a great deal but im more of a modern era Batman fan. The bulk of the silver-age is not really my cup of tea. I've always been more attracted to the 70's, 80's, 90's (more specific to a few writers)...and i'm not too crazy about the last decade of Batman comics other than what we have now in Scott Snyder. Who is pretty amazing. That probably has to do with the live-action Batman movies and video games hogging it up for me. So i dont mind learning more about the history of it from you guys.

So Batman 89' is close to the 1939 version but where does Returns stand? if it's not just an excuse for a Burton-Fest.


Last edited by shauner111; 11-22-2012 at 04:03 PM.
shauner111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 04:03 PM   #170
BH/HHH
Cavill's Hairychest
 
BH/HHH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Leeds
Posts: 14,733
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
I'm not a fan of BR either though, lol. Only Batfilm outside of Nolan's trilogy that I cherish is '89 Batman.
Returns did have some awful dialogue

__________________
MAN OF STEEL


THE GREATEST COMIC BOOK MOVIE OF ALL-TIME
BH/HHH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 04:04 PM   #171
shauner111
Side-Kick
 
shauner111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 9,212
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
Returns did have some awful dialogue
Awful goddamn screenplay lol.

shauner111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 04:05 PM   #172
Rodrigo90
Boy Wonder
 
Rodrigo90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Geordie Shore
Posts: 17,665
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Misletoe can be deadly if you eat it?

Though I liked a kiss can be deadlier if you mean it lol

Rodrigo90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 04:46 PM   #173
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 35,509
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It feels really random. It doesn't even answer the questions of why he would give it all up in the first place.
Because he hates it. It's even phrased in the movie "Why would a man do this? It's like he's cursed to pay some great penance. Now what possible crime could he have committed to deserve a life of nightly torture?"

Quote:
I excuse that if the stylistic approach to your film is say an expressionistic one & you're using many other elements to get that point across outside of the protagonist but that wasn't the case; BF was very literal with presenting it's concepts.

"Batman is no more"

"why Bruce?"

"because I killed my parents"

"ummm....ok. So why would that guilt kill Batman now? why has it never occurred to you before almost an hour or so into this movie? and isn't the point of being Batman your self inflicted punishment for killing your parents anyway so why absolve yourself of said punishment if you still feel guilt?"
It's what happened with Dick Grayson that holds a mirror up to his face and makes him see what he has become when Dick says he is going to find Two Face and he's going to kill him. That's what Batman had been. An angry killer.

This is why I don't think it was absolved in Batman Returns because your two quotes that you mentioned never said to me that Batman was recognizing something in himself that he was conflicted about.

But when Bruce sees Dick and his situation, and how angry, bitter, vengeful Dick is, he sees a mirror reflection of himself. That's why he wants to stop. It stirs up the memories in him of what happened to his parents after he sees Dick lose his. That's when the nightmares begin and he starts to question himself and his mission as Batman.

Quote:
Never conflicted? again it boils down to the stylistic approach of the film. This is expressionistic cinema. You can't expect Bruce to literally dictate "hey man I have a conflict and it's XYZ" because it's not the approach BR had unlike BF. It is something that is projected through the environment in the film, the other characters in the film coupled with the body language and performance of the principle actor himself. It's the ultimate cinematic equivalent to the famous "show don't tell" rule of another popular visual medium; comic books.
Interesting considering the comic books I've always read pepper the reader with narration boxes, thought balloons, and dialogue about Batman and what drives him.

Quote:
You know how I know Bruce Wayne is conflicted in that movie?

It starts out with the man self loathing in his cave. Obsessed with nothing but his mission as the Batman. Consumed by his beast. Waiting for the signal to come like a junkie waiting for his fix. It's the only time he even feels alive anymore.
Why does him waiting for the batsignal make him conflicted about it? Looking at him sitting waiting for the signal doesn't necessarily spell out he has some inner conflict over this.

Quote:
To the point that when another sideshow act comes out of nowhere into Gotham he feels threatened about not being the only freakshow in town anymore. He feels that could potentially hinder Batman's stance in the eyes of the public. Rendering his only reason for living at this point to be moot in his eyes.
Where did all of this happen?

Quote:
As you can see by his reaction to Cobblepot's first appearance and his obsession with proving that he's the only freak in town worthy of Gotham's love by putting The Penguin under a giant magnifying glass. Alfred even literally brings that up through dialogue later on ("must you be the only lonely man-beast in town")
I never interpreted that way at all. He was initially hoping Penguin would find his parents. It's when the reporter says Penguin is standing along side Max Schreck that Bruce smells a rat and decides to do a little investigating.

The circus gang comes back, tries to abduct a baby, Penguin magically comes to the rescue, and Schreck is standing proudly beside him just like that, whispering in his ear.

Quote:
You also see him struggle with wanting a sense of normalcy in his life again. He's still very much a child emotionally. Scarred and obsessed with his toys including his favorite action figure (the Batman persona) but like every child part of him also longs to be "normal" and not just a "freak". Something he tries to work on as Bruce Wayne by reaching out to Selina and trying to have a normal dating life while still being conflicted with his dual nature.

Since he's so obsessed with the Batman though it proves difficult for him to break through to Selina and "force" normalcy into his life because his own emotional imbalance (his obsessive duality) is something she recognizes within herself later on. It is then when he sees how far gone they both have become through seeing her actions in coping with her trauma that he recognizes his problem. It's why he tells her they're basically one and the same.
I never saw any of this in Batman Returns either. He was more than willing to date Vicki Vale, and sleep with her on the first date in Batman 1989. He never seemed to be struggling with dating Selina. He never seemed awkward. He was the one who made the moves on her by inviting her to Wayne Manor. He went to Max's party just so he could see her. He seemed very eager.

Selina was the one who was the conflicted one. That scene of her staring aimlessly into the store window asking herself why she was doing this. Breaking down at the costume party saying she doesn't know who she is any more etc.

That's a conflicted character. I never saw any of that with Michael Keaton's Wayne.

Quote:
He sees how his obsession has made him blind to the reality of his world (recognizing that he's not above the law and that he's become nothing but an obsessed shell of a man) by seeing this woman who sees herself above the law and became a shell of what she could've been right in fron of his face. BF even plays around with that which is why to me BF works much better when I watch all 3 movies back to back and not BF stand alone. You see how that realization has affected the nature of this Batman in how he carries himself in BF more clearly when you view it within that context.
You see my problem with that final scene with Selina is Batman says several things that do not make sense. He tells Max Schreck he's going to jail. Why is Max going to jail all of a sudden? Did Bruce dig up some incriminating evidence on Schreck in the short space of time between the party and now?

He says the law still applies to him but he consistently breaks it, and I'm not just talking about killing people. He takes his mask off in front of Max Schreck, a very foolish thing to do.

The whole scene was written like some kind of flowery phony emotion to get Selina to snap and kill Schreck, and Bruce to get maskless. I never got the sense that Bruce had a sudden epiphany about who he was just because he equated himself to Selina.

Quote:
You may not have seen any of this but I wasn't the only one who did. Many movie reviewers (especially cinephiles who aren't into comic books) saw that because it's very clearly projected in the language that the film speaks if you understand that language (expressionistic cinema). It's one of the things the movie is usually praised for. Hell many people on this very forum over the years especially in the misc bat boards have also recognized this. Something I'm sure you're familiar with considering that you've been a regular poster over there for years now.
Oh I don't think you're right or wrong for interpreting the movie the way you do. It's always good for someone to get something out of a Batman movie, even if everyone doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
No offense Joker, but it seems like you always try to start an argument, lol.
None taken, Anno. If questioning your problem with Batman smiling means I'm trying to start an argument to you, then I think the problem lies with you not me, since you're the one who raised this issue to me in the first place. I'm just responding to a discussion you started with me.

Quote:
It's a smiling Batman in what's supposed to be a character to be taken serious that gets me frustrated. A smiling Batman in a cartoon, I can look past. A campy Adam West Batman, I can get past. Even though the storylines themselves in Batman Returns and Batman Forever seemed "off the wall", I did not enjoy seeing Bats smiling.
Thanks for the clarification. All I asked you was if a smiling Batman was what spoiled it for you after you said you disliked both Forever and Returns.

This is all you had to say without any drama.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 04:55 PM   #174
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
None taken, Anno. If questioning your problem with Batman smiling means I'm trying to start an argument to you, then I think the problem lies with you not me, since you're the one who raised this issue to me in the first place. I'm just responding to a discussion you started with me.

Thanks for the clarification. All I asked you was if a smiling Batman was what spoiled it for you after you said you disliked both Forever and Returns.

This is all you had to say without any drama.
You're welcome for the clarification, but just posting pics of TAS' Batman smiling just seemed a tad bit condescending when saying the smiling Batman was something I didn't like, that's all. But it's all good.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 05:06 PM   #175
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 35,509
Default Re: Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
You're welcome for the clarification, but just posting pics of TAS' Batman smiling just seemed a tad bit condescending when saying the smiling Batman was something I didn't like, that's all. But it's all good.
Well I apologize if that's how it came across. It wasn't intentional. I was actually being serious because Batman smiling is actually not that uncommon. I don't just mean in BTAS. There's lots of examples in the comics, too, and I don't mean the campy ones;










__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:41 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.