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Old 11-14-2012, 03:08 PM   #876
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The whole thing that's wrong with him killing,is that invites the cops to hound him more as a dangerous threat.Being a vigilante is one thing if no one gets hurt.No way the cops are going to look the other way if people are dying.

As others have said,it's not really needed.(If he's that skilled,no need to take a life.)But I guess we're supposed to think living in a "kill or be killed" situation for 5 years led him to this mindset.

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Old 11-14-2012, 03:28 PM   #877
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Didn't he stop killing at the end of the last episode? Have you noticed how he didn't kill anyone in that last fight scene before the screen faded to black? I think he already learned from episodes 4 and 5 that he has to stop doing that.

Also, he never killed any of the people on the list. He did kill their henchmen and bodyguards though.

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Old 11-14-2012, 03:34 PM   #878
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He definetly killed Leo Muller.

Cuff arrow guy probably died, too.

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Old 11-14-2012, 03:55 PM   #879
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You know, I just have a very slight problem with him killing so much. If he's so good that he can hit a bunch of small, bouncing, tennis balls perfectly, he should be able to take enemies out, without having to kill them.

What's wrong with killing them? I like it. It's one of the few things that makes him different from Nolan's Batman.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:02 PM   #880
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He definetly killed Leo Muller.

Cuff arrow guy probably died, too.
We don't know that for sure. The screen faded to black just before Oliver was supposedly about to shoot his arrow. I think they intentionally left it ambiguous and made it seem as if he killed him but seeing as how he didn't kill anyone in that last scene and even used trick arrows, I doubt he killed Muller. Plus, if you think about it, he never actually killed any of the people on the list. Just their henchmen and bodyguards. Adam Hunt and the rest of the people he targeted up till now were spared. So I really doubt he killed Muller. And I doubt the other guy died as well.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:04 PM   #881
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Because he's supposed to be a good guy. And good guys don't kill. Unless they have no other choice. And someone like Arrow, who's so over the top, ridiculously good with an arrow and bow, always has another choice. He could easily incapacitate everyone, without killing them.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:20 PM   #882
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Also, I'm sorry, but if a show has someone get shot in the chest and fall down, I think its fair to assume they are dead if there isn't some actual *evidence* for the hit not being fatal. While you can die from a bullet ( or arrow ) in the leg or shoulder, you are a lot more likely to die from one that hit you in the upper chest. Which Ollie has done, regularly. . . *even though we know he's good enough to easily score limb hits at the very least.*

This means that, yes, not *everyone* Ollie fights necessarily dies. . . but unless you really destroy credibility in a show that at least claims some degree of grittiness, most of the mooks he fights do end up dead, and Ollie is indifferent to this. He could greatly decease the odds of them dying, but he chooses not to. Because, apparently, evil corporate overlords deserve a chance to repent, but mooks? Mooks just deserve to die, for the crime of. . . working for the wrong boss.

The problem isn't that Ollie is willing to use deadly force. The problem is the way he uses it makes him look callous and hypocritical.

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:34 PM   #883
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Because he's supposed to be a good guy. And good guys don't kill. Unless they have no other choice. And someone like Arrow, who's so over the top, ridiculously good with an arrow and bow, always has another choice. He could easily incapacitate everyone, without killing them.
That's really black and white.


James Bond is a good guy and he kills plenty.

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:00 PM   #884
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Also, I'm sorry, but if a show has someone get shot in the chest and fall down, I think its fair to assume they are dead if there isn't some actual *evidence* for the hit not being fatal. While you can die from a bullet ( or arrow ) in the leg or shoulder, you are a lot more likely to die from one that hit you in the upper chest. Which Ollie has done, regularly. . . *even though we know he's good enough to easily score limb hits at the very least.*

This means that, yes, not *everyone* Ollie fights necessarily dies. . . but unless you really destroy credibility in a show that at least claims some degree of grittiness, most of the mooks he fights do end up dead, and Ollie is indifferent to this. He could greatly decease the odds of them dying, but he chooses not to. Because, apparently, evil corporate overlords deserve a chance to repent, but mooks? Mooks just deserve to die, for the crime of. . . working for the wrong boss.

The problem isn't that Ollie is willing to use deadly force. The problem is the way he uses it makes him look callous and hypocritical.
But he *is* callous and hypocritical. He hasn't thought it through. He's Bruce Wayne killing Joe Chill and getting away with it and coming back for more. He hasn't gotten sat down by Falcone to see how shortsighted he's been. That's what happens when you set out to be a vigilante without enough 'everything always works out' power. He's lucky enough that his arrows take every single mook out of the fight after one hit as it is, so no one weakly raises their gun and shoot him in the back. He's half a man doing bad things for good reasons. Which side will he fall on, and how will he get there? That's why I'm watching the show at this point. If he had figured out how to clean up his city without spilling any blood on an island somewhere, I don't think the show would be very interesting.

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:02 PM   #885
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread

Bond, Dexter, Skywalker's... there are plenty of 'good' guys that kill... but the overall general audience doesnt expect a superhero from comics to be a killer.

I personally like him killing bad people... some people just gotta go.

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:04 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
Also, I'm sorry, but if a show has someone get shot in the chest and fall down, I think its fair to assume they are dead if there isn't some actual *evidence* for the hit not being fatal. While you can die from a bullet ( or arrow ) in the leg or shoulder, you are a lot more likely to die from one that hit you in the upper chest. Which Ollie has done, regularly. . . *even though we know he's good enough to easily score limb hits at the very least.*

This means that, yes, not *everyone* Ollie fights necessarily dies. . . but unless you really destroy credibility in a show that at least claims some degree of grittiness, most of the mooks he fights do end up dead, and Ollie is indifferent to this. He could greatly decease the odds of them dying, but he chooses not to. Because, apparently, evil corporate overlords deserve a chance to repent, but mooks? Mooks just deserve to die, for the crime of. . . working for the wrong boss.

The problem isn't that Ollie is willing to use deadly force. The problem is the way he uses it makes him look callous and hypocritical.
Maybe I'm clutching at straws but I think it's deliberate; as evidenced by Detective Lance (and the other cops we've met) seeing Arrow as a criminal, the same as the ones he purportedly goes after.

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:04 PM   #887
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread

I would be a lot less okay with it, if the show didn't show that it was a problem and give the implicit promise of growth.

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:23 PM   #888
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How are they in no way the same. In raiders the guy takes out a sword and indy shoots him with a gun. Thats cold blooded murder. His kidnappers killed an innocent person. He has yet to full out kill a person on the list.
Indy didn't go looking to punish/kill any of those people. That's the difference.

The same way manslaughter and murder in the first degree both involve killing but aren't punished in the same way.

You act like "full on kill a person" is the only reason he's crazy. Some guy is shooting people on a freeway isn't trying to kill anyone in particular but he's endangering lives as much as some who shoots point blank.

The fact that Ollie will tie a man to a train track. Shoot bodyguards and shoot people through the hand to force a confession is still a crazy person.

Remember. It was quite obvious to people what Robin Hood was doing. What exactly does the Hood do that couldn't be done by giving evidence to the police if he isn't going to kill the guy?

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:29 PM   #889
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread

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, he gives people 'chances.'
Forcing confessions isn't chance. And what about the people not on the list.

The guy who was intimidated into lying about the toxic spill deserved to be tied to a train track like a piece of meat?


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I think when we can simply point out a flaw in his logic, it shows that he's not insane. Certainly obsessed, but he doesn't need medication, he just needs a slightly bigger worldview, as you imply.
No. He's insane cause despite everyone telling him something isn't right. Ollie, Lance, Laurel and Thea. He's still not getting it.

That's what Digg's voiceover really said. He never thought about people getting close or having concerns when he hatched this plan. And he's not adjusting. He's just moving forward come hell or whatever.

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:30 PM   #890
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I think a piece of fridge brilliance has just dawned on me about Diggle's disapproval of Ollie killing people. In his back story, it's revealed that his brother died while working as a bodyguard. Meaning, Diggle realises that the people Ollie is killing are people much like his own brother!!

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Old 11-14-2012, 06:44 PM   #891
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Indy didn't go looking to punish/kill any of those people. That's the difference.

The same way manslaughter and murder in the first degree both involve killing but aren't punished in the same way.

You act like "full on kill a person" is the only reason he's crazy. Some guy is shooting people on a freeway isn't trying to kill anyone in particular but he's endangering lives as much as some who shoots point blank.

The fact that Ollie will tie a man to a train track. Shoot bodyguards and shoot people through the hand to force a confession is still a crazy person.

Remember. It was quite obvious to people what Robin Hood was doing. What exactly does the Hood do that couldn't be done by giving evidence to the police if he isn't going to kill the guy?
Sorry I must not be clear on the point you're trying to make.

I know the difference between manslaughter and murder because I'm in law school.

Also, you quoted me when I believe you were quoting DrCosmic in post 893.

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:17 PM   #892
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Sorry I must not be clear on the point you're trying to make.

I know the difference between manslaughter and murder because I'm in law school.

Also, you quoted me when I believe you were quoting DrCosmic in post 893.
Sorry. I erased the other quotation.

Indy went to talk to Marion. He was attacked and the situation escalated.

That's not the same as breaking into a building with a bow and arrow and security shooting at an intruder(ie doing their jobs).

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:23 PM   #893
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^Well he had the gun on him and the guy had a sword. That could be characterized as murder and not manslaughter.

At the end of the day I don't agree with Oliver killing, but I think the direction they are going in is to make the character grow into a hero. One that starts out with a very flawed plan and has consequences for his actions.

Its doing more to address some issues that plague all superhero movies better than most movies.

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:34 PM   #894
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^Well he had the gun on him and the guy had a sword. That could be characterized as murder and not manslaughter.

At the end of the day I don't agree with Oliver killing, but I think the direction they are going in is to make the character grow into a hero. One that starts out with a very flawed plan and has consequences for his actions.

Its doing more to address some issues that plague all superhero movies better than most movies
.
Agreed. That's why he's insane. The show is openly acknowledging that he's not right in the head. People are challenging him left and right about it. He's the only one refusing to(until the lastest ep) Something most superhero movies/shows gloss over.


I just meant he didn't go to find a fight. Ollie broke into a building and started the confrontation. People in the Old West carried guns all the time. Doesn't make them murders.

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:49 PM   #895
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread

The guy spent five years on an island, being tortured and what not. That would realistically have an effect on any person and if it didn't I would find something wrong with it. Kinda like how in cast away tom hanks went a little nuts from what I remember of that movie.

As for the wild west comparison. If you kill someone, you're probably a murderer in the legal sense if you fulfill all the elements of the crime.

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Old 11-14-2012, 08:57 PM   #896
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You can't really compare superheroes to other genre heroes.I mean Indy was fighting nazis and satanic cultists,Bond has a licence to kill and Luke was fighting in a "star war".It's not really the same as Ollie killing street thugs.

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Old 11-14-2012, 10:04 PM   #897
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The guy spent five years on an island, being tortured and what not. That would realistically have an effect on any person and if it didn't I would find something wrong with it. Kinda like how in cast away tom hanks went a little nuts from what I remember of that movie.
I agree that anyone would be damaged. The insanity is that he's lost the ability to adjust to change. Look at episode 6. It's exactly what I said.

The Royal Flush gang started 3 years ago meaning they weren't on Ollie's list. And he didn't care. For someone talking about cleaning up the poison in his city, he couldn't reason that the list isn't the only problem.

Diggle had to trick him into helping that officer and going after the Royal Flush gang.

The list isn't about cleaning the city. It's just revenge. And revenge is what he survived on the island with.

It's interesting to me. But he's still delusional.

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Old 11-14-2012, 10:32 PM   #898
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread

I learned 3 things tonight...

1. Good episode
2. They totally ripped off 'Inside Man'.
3. Apparently an arrow shot in the middle of someones chest does not hurt or kill them. (vest?)

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Old 11-14-2012, 11:44 PM   #899
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3. Pretty sure it was his right shoulder that was shot, not that it changes much pain wise.

They just wanted to give the guy that non-stop villain vibe.

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Old 11-14-2012, 11:48 PM   #900
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3. Pretty sure it was his right shoulder that was shot, not that it changes much pain wise.

They just wanted to give the guy that non-stop villain vibe.
or the invincible roid rage vibe.

was it the shoulder? ill have to watch again it looked dead center of the chest at first.

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