Does Race Really Matter?

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer

It's a shame debates like this are so one sided as well. I mean, it would equally suck for them to cast a caucasian actor as John Stewart/Cyborg/Bishop/War Machine/Storm etc.

It's not really the same.

Popular black comic characters are rare and desperately valued as such whereas popular white characters are a dime a dozen so there's nothing lost by changing a few of them into a minority.

[Project862006]

Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer

It's a shame debates like this are so one sided as well. I mean, it would equally suck for them to cast a caucasian actor as John Stewart/Cyborg/Bishop/War Machine/Storm etc.

totally agree when ever a white actor were to replace a black character people call out racism imagine if blade reboot wasn't black?

but when a black actor or an actor of color replaces a white character it is seen as progress

i have come across such people saying this type of stuff all the time

[Lead Cenobite]

Race shouldn't matter, but I think characteristics like that stick in people's minds and changing the race of a character comes off as much more significant than things like height or eye color. It's the same deal with gender. Race is something that even today still divides people and it's much more of an identity.

[bat89]

I know a lot of people will argue no because they feel tv shows/movies based on superheroes should be faithful to the comics. However, comics are the one genre where any artist can completely change a character's continuity (anything from race, gender, relationship status, age, origin, sexual orientation, handicap, or even their very existence) to fit his/her particular story/vision for the character. Just google the new 52! Therefore I believe the whole faithfulness to the source material arguement is actually pretty weak.

Was Heath Ledger's Joker not faithful because he wore make-up or Jackman's Wolverine not faithful because of his height? To me, if an actor can pull off the role, what does it matter what the skin color is? No more than height, an accent, or an actor's previous roles. Talent is talent and we all want talented actors as our favorite heroes right?

Yes, there are talented white actors/actresses that could pull off Bruce/Dianna( I personally argee Superman should be white based on where he grew up and if for no other reason, the spit curl. Lois and Lex are different stories. It doesn't matter what race they are)but that shouldn't automatically count out minority actors/actresses from getting a shot at these roles. Bruce Wayne could easily be biracial( black mom, white dad) as long as they get shot in an alley when he's eight, what's the difference?

[Captain Marvel]

Originally Posted by Bruce Malone

It shouldn't in most cases but don't tell it to this board. I remember people's heads exploding when there was that brief rumor a black actor (donald glover) was campaigning to be the new spider-man.

Some people's true colors certainly came out.

Right. So if you're opposed to changing the look of a character, which is a defining characteristic of a character in a visual medium like comics, then you're a racist. Oh please. I also recall people on this board complaining about Keanu being cast as John Constantine due to the fact that he's neither blonde nor British. So is that indicative of a deep-seated racism on the part of this board against dark-haired white American men?

So yeah, iconic characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman should be cast to look like the characters we've known for decades. Not just because their appearance is a defining characteristic of those characters, but because for the most part it's required for their character. Sure, Superman's an alien, but he also grew up as the quintessential Kansas farmboy. He's someone who fit right in, and to fit right in you have to look like the majority there. And 87.4% of the people in Kansas are white, and we're talking overall. One can only imagine how much that percentage shoots up when you get to the more rural areas of Kansas, which Smallville is based off of. The same holds true for Wonder Woman. She's an Amazon, and the Amazons are Greek women. So Wonder Woman has to look like a Greek woman.

Changing the race of iconic characters for the sake of political correctness is bad enough, but doing so even when it goes against the logic of the characters own background is just downright ridiculous.

[Captain Marvel]

Quick addendum to my Smallville point: I just did a quick Google search for small towns in Kansas and decided to base a comparison of Smallville to Andale, KS (Pop. 1,133). Let's assume that Smallville has the same exact demographics. According to Zipskinny, the demographic breakdown is as follows:

97.9% White
01.9% Hispanic
00.1% Other

Making Superman part of a 2% minority is a pretty big change to his character.

[S. Grundy]

I think it's a case by case thing, some characters the change can work, and some they probably wouldn't. Like for example Peter Parker or Frank Castle, those are two characters that to me could really be any race.

[Samuel Jackson]

Originally Posted by bat89

Nick Fury's apperance was changed in the comics and now is widely accepted in favor over the original(mostly thanks to the movies). However could characters like Batman(Bruce Wayne) or Wonder Woman(Diana) have a "race change" and it be accepted like Fury's? Would it really matter or take away from the character if in a movie/tv show Bruce, Diana, or any other major DC player was portrayed by a minority actor or actress?

What do you mean,you people?

[Thundercrack85]

Well look at it from the perspective of their creators. Most comic book writers were Jewish, but how many of their characters are Jewish?

Superman, Batman, Spider-man, Captain America, Iron Man, were all created by Jewish writers.

Okay, Spider-man may be Jewish. But most characters clearly aren't.

Like it or not, people identify with people who look like them. And most Americans are WASPs. Hence almost all comic book characters are.

Just look at Superman. He lives in the DC equivalent of New York City. All of his supporting characters are white. Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Lex, etc. And that's outside of Kansas!

And that's changing. But it will change very slowly.

[Silvermoth]

I think it's fair enough I guess that people want to see the first incarnation of their heroes as close to the comics as possible but I fully expect superhero films to be around for decades, maybe centuries.

For that to happen we need to embrace different interpretations. After all, that works really well in the comics with alternate dimensions and retellings etc.

I always compare it to how there have been African-European actors and actress play Romeo and Juliet, Bollywood Romeo and Juliet, ghetto Romeo and Juliet and present day Romeo and Juliet. Comic book movies will probably have the same ability to make subtle changes to improve the story.

[DrCosmic]

Race obviously matters, as long as it's used to carve us up socially and economically, as long as it carries with it stereotypes, race will matter.

The reason it matters so much in fiction is because race is used as a shortcut to create identification with the desired consumer: young white males. Visual stories that use other race/gender combos have additional storytelling challenges. As a consequence, people who are used to visually self-identifying with a hero, really won't enjoy them when they can no longer identify with him visually as they used to. That's why you can change Nick Fury, who doesn't have a lot of fans who identify with him, with little outcry and overall success. But you can't do that with Superman.

And another part of it is that a lot of these long standing characters have become mythic to the point that their entire visual tells a story. To change one of those visuals changes the story. When Superman's costume goes black, it can't just be 'because it's Tuesday.' When Superman is blonde, it can't just be an artist's interpretation, it's gotta be an alternate universe!

Likewise, Batman's visuals all tell a story. Nick Fury's visuals don't tell a story. Flash's visuals don't either, but he falls under the visual identification thing. There's nothing wrong with having a Black Barry Allen, just like there's nothing wrong with him changing his hair color or blending attributes with Wally West in various adaptations, but Flash fans would collectively have kittens if he were anything other than a white male, because of the loss of visual self-identification.

I like what Silvermoth said, about different interpretations. I don't think we'll see that for a long time though, because these characters are primarily known for who they are and what they *can* do, rather than what they've done, like Romeo and Juliet are. So there is not alternate take on the characters that is not an alternate take on the story.

Originally Posted by Captain Marvel

Right. So if you're opposed to changing the look of a character, which is a defining characteristic of a character in a visual medium like comics, then you're a racist. Oh please. I also recall people on this board complaining about Keanu being cast as John Constantine due to the fact that he's neither blonde nor British. So is that indicative of a deep-seated racism on the part of this board against dark-haired white American men?

So yeah, iconic characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman should be cast to look like the characters we've known for decades. Not just because their appearance is a defining characteristic of those characters, but because for the most part it's required for their character. Sure, Superman's an alien, but he also grew up as the quintessential Kansas farmboy. He's someone who fit right in, and to fit right in you have to look like the majority there. And 87.4% of the people in Kansas are white, and we're talking overall. One can only imagine how much that percentage shoots up when you get to the more rural areas of Kansas, which Smallville is based off of. The same holds true for Wonder Woman. She's an Amazon, and the Amazons are Greek women. So Wonder Woman has to look like a Greek woman.

Changing the race of iconic characters for the sake of political correctness is bad enough, but doing so even when it goes against the logic of the characters own background is just downright ridiculous.

I think what he's referring to is the vitriolic hyperbolic reactions that we hear in response to race changes. For instance: you have no reason to say that these changes are made for political correctness, but you seem relatively sure that this is why race changes happen. Why is that? Is that logic, or is that something else? That's a light example, where those who oppose take on fallacious ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the issues. For many posters who are against race changes, they don't even start with credible points on the character in question as you did (and outside of Supe/Bat/WW, few characters have such reasons), instead they just go straight for judgment calls on the motivations of those involved, this is also illogical and ridiculous.

And those are the nice ones. Most go into great detail about the reprehensible thought process of those who would dare paint white males as anything but and decry such changes (but not other more drastic changes) as a personal attack on their 30+ years of comic book reading. Then they go into how there is no more drastic change than changing race, "you might as well put Batman in a bright pink dress!" At that point, this person has basically told you they are racist, that black people are as foreign and inferior to white as batman in pink is to batman in black. It'd be different if they just illustrated their point with something merely different "It'd be like Batman in army camo" but they reveal their prejudice by invariably choosing something that is dramatically inferior in their analogies of changing white characters to black.

These are my observations of the fan community, you may have not seen such hatred, and see all disagreements as equal. Regardless, the poster you quoted doesn't state it that way as you seem to interpret. Even a simple reading of his post shows he's not talking about everyone who disagrees, but people whose "heads exploded." So I think is addressing racism and prejudice in the community - which must logically exist if non-whites are underrepresented and not inferior - is appropriate and well worded.

----

You know what I'd love to see?

Changing someone's gender. Like "F it, let's make Barry Allen a chick." I would get a kick out of that.

[RachelDawes]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

For most minor characters is doesn't matter at all.

Major characters is another story.

For major characters you need to:

A) Have a damn good reason to change the race (actor of another race fits better/the original was outdated)

B) Use another character to replace the original character's position (Miles Morales)

C) Wait until the character has been through many reboots then finally experiment with another race (black James Bond?)

This is how I see it. I don't care if secondary characters have their races changed but I wouldn't want the same to happen to the main ones.

[Donnie Darko]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

It's not really the same.

Popular black comic characters are rare and desperately valued as such whereas popular white characters are a dime a dozen so there's nothing lost by changing a few of them into a minority.

I think the point is that the argument for changing a white character to a black character/actor is usually "race doesn't matter. It should just be whoever the best actor for the job would be." In that case, you could say that there are white actors who may be able to play great versions of black comic book characters.

That being said, I would be against changing one of the few prominent black characters in a comic book to being white, much like I would be against a white protagonist being changed to black. That rule, for me, generally just applies to main characters. I wouldn't want Batman to be black (although I wouldn't be against it if they did it in an Elseworlds story or "Ultimate" line), but I would have no issue with Gordon, Dent (like Billy Dee Williams), etc. In fact, I would be all for Denzel as Gordon in the reboot.

[Soapy]

It shouldn't matter, but it does unfortunately. Anecdotally, comic book fans generally seem to be too conservative to tolerate, let alone accept, a black Spider-Man or Asian Batman or what have you.

[DarKush]

Originally Posted by bat89

Nick Fury's apperance was changed in the comics and now is widely accepted in favor over the original(mostly thanks to the movies). However could characters like Batman(Bruce Wayne) or Wonder Woman(Diana) have a "race change" and it be accepted like Fury's? Would it really matter or take away from the character if in a movie/tv show Bruce, Diana, or any other major DC player was portrayed by a minority actor or actress?

Of course race matters. The idea that racial changes have to be made to some white characters could point to the over representation of white characters in comics and comic book films. Though to be fair, there are times when non-white characters are portrayed by white actors and there isn't as much hue and cry from fanboys.

I generally don't care for racial changes, especially if those characters are defined by culture and history. For example, I didn't care for making Heimdall black despite the new aliens origin. But changing Fury, Alicia Masters, or Kingpin didn't really bother me. I didn't think those roles were as defined by race or culture.

I would rather that already existing non-white characters get movies or better promotion in films with white heroes. Or that new characters are created-though hopefully with better creative results than Hancock.

[GREEN =w= DAY]

would you guys want a white guy playing Blade?

yeah, didn't think so

[DarKush]

Originally Posted by Project862006

totally agree when ever a white actor were to replace a black character people call out racism imagine if blade reboot wasn't black?

but when a black actor or an actor of color replaces a white character it is seen as progress

i have come across such people saying this type of stuff all the time

I think it's more an issue of degree. You have so many white characters that get movies and TV shows, and Blade is one of the handful of black characters that has done either so a change like that is going to be more noticeable. In fact, Blade might be the only black comic book character to have be in movies, TV, and cartoons. Storm and Cyborg perhaps come close, but not a trifecta like Blade.

I once read that at one time New Line was thinking about making Blade not black but that Goyer put a stop to it. So it's not like the idea hasn't been floated out there, perhaps.

I think Hollywood has decided that it's easier to fit change the color of certain characters while largely maintaining the status quo instead of promoting nonwhite superhero projects.

I think casting of nonwhites to previously white roles is seen as progress because it is breaking-perhaps on a surface level-the white character stranglehold. It's adding some color and reflecting the real world a bit more, and it likely makes it easier to promote and market the film. On the opposite side, some might see it as a maintaining that over representation of whites in cinema, which doesn't reflect the real world and could be seen as a step back.

[DarKush]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

It's not really the same.

Popular black comic characters are rare and desperately valued as such whereas popular white characters are a dime a dozen so there's nothing lost by changing a few of them into a minority.

Actually I don't think that black characters are desperately valued. And thank goodness they aren't as rare as maybe they once had been. There definitely still needs to be more, but sometimes you've got to know where to look.

With no black characters getting any superhero movies-to my knowledge-in the foreseeable future (despite promising prospects like Black Panther, Luke Cage, John Stewart, Static), I can't say they are highly valued. This is also reflected in comics where DC has canceled almost every solo book with a black lead character, except for Batwing. And Marvel only has Ultimate Spider-Man out now. Though I'm guessing that the new Nick Fury and Black Panther will play prominent roles on Avengers teams. I'm assuming Storm and War Machine might also have prominent roles in Marvel NOW too, but that remains to be seen.

So I feel that some of the major black characters are a step above tokenism but they are still too much in the seen-not heard category. They look good on book covers-usually in the background-but have yet to make real inroads. And by that, I mean having successful solo titles, being more prominent on teams, having major story lines that can impact the comic universes, or being hot properties to turn into movies or TV shows.

[DarKush]

Originally Posted by GREEN =w= DAY

would you guys want a white guy playing Blade?

yeah, didn't think so

Do you?

[ЯɘvlveR]

i wouldn't care if a plantain with a soul patch played blade, but that's because i don't really care about the character.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by ЯɘvlveR

i wouldn't care if a plantain with a soul patch played blade, but that's because i don't really care about the character.

I think Blade is the only black action hero not played by Will Smith or Denzel to make over 125 m WW.

That's how rare successful black action heroes are.

Django will probably make that milestone as well but it's still incredibly rare.

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Originally Posted by DarKush

Do you?

of course not

slap in the face to fans & Blade creator

Blade was written as a black character and he stay that way. much like Batman, Wolverine, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. are white and they should stay white.

[Samuel Jackson]

Spider-Man would be easier to change imo. As long as he's still an orphaned nerdy kid that lives with his aunt and uncle in queens he'll be as close to comic peter as mcguire was.

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by GREEN =w= DAY

of course not

slap in the face to fans & Blade creator

Blade was written as a black character and he stay that way. much like Batman, Wolverine, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. are white and they should stay white.

Why is a race change a 'slap in the face' but all the other dramatic changes these characters undergone considered 'progress?'

Originally Posted by GREEN =w= DAY

would you guys want a white guy playing Blade?

yeah, didn't think so

Wait... why not have a white guy play blade? If he does a kick-tail job... why not?
Has anyone ever raised a big problem with this? Honestly... if Bruce Willis is playing Blade, is anyone going to raise a ruckus? No one had a problem with Robert Downey Junior playing in blackface for crying out loud! This idea that whites playing black characters, something that has happened throughout the history of cinema, as some big problem sounds like a bunch of malarkey. The only outcry is when black people play white characters.

[Spider-Kurt!]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

For most minor characters is doesn't matter at all.

Major characters is another story.

For major characters you need to:

A) Have a damn good reason to change the race (actor of another race fits better/the original was outdated)

B) Use another character to replace the original character's position (Miles Morales)

C) Wait until the character has been through many reboots then finally experiment with another race (black James Bond?)

All of this.