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Old 10-23-2012, 08:16 PM   #101
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Well,I'm a purist,so my hope is to always see the characters translate to the screen as close to the comics as they reasonably can.

I think the only time I felt a race change worked was Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin.He basically looked and sounded just like what I was expecting from the Kingpin,his race being the only real difference.

The thing about Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury that doesn't bother me too much- is that he's like a whole different character from the original.They're using the "ultimate" version Fury not the "616" version.So it doesn't feel like they changed anything to me.They're just using a "different" Nick Fury.

The biggest ojection I've had was Alicia in FF.It just felt to me like they went "Hey,we need a black actor in a prominent role....how about Alicia?"
Yeah but that chick is hot.

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:40 PM   #102
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Could there be a black Batman? yeah, why not. Sounds cool.

Could there be a black Bruce Wayne? No.

And that's the difference. If a character of a different race takes up the mantle of an established superhero, it should be acceptable. Miles Morales as Spiderman. Jaime Reyes as Blue Beetle. Isaiah Bradley as Captain America. No big deal and usually leads a different take on the character.

But to change Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen or Dinah Lance to a different race just for the sake of it is just ignorant.

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Old 10-26-2012, 07:26 PM   #103
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Nick Fury's apperance was changed in the comics and now is widely accepted in favor over the original(mostly thanks to the movies). However could characters like Batman(Bruce Wayne) or Wonder Woman(Diana) have a "race change" and it be accepted like Fury's? Would it really matter or take away from the character if in a movie/tv show Bruce, Diana, or any other major DC player was portrayed by a minority actor or actress?
Wonder Woman was a blond in a TV film at one time and that didn't fly well. I don't think that the franchise characters changing their race would sit well with fans. You might be able to get away with that using one of the supporting characters within the respective franchises, though. It would also depend on the character and the market you are trying to target. I don't think it would be politically correct to see Alfred become a black man if your market is in America. It could cause a lot of controversy. That being said, we do have Perry white becoming a African American in "Man of Steel" and Mr. Terrific is now a black man in the comics.

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Old 10-26-2012, 07:32 PM   #104
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Could there be a black Batman? yeah, why not. Sounds cool.

Could there be a black Bruce Wayne? No.

And that's the difference. If a character of a different race takes up the mantle of an established superhero, it should be acceptable. Miles Morales as Spiderman. Jaime Reyes as Blue Beetle. Isaiah Bradley as Captain America. No big deal and usually leads a different take on the character.

But to change Bruce Wayne or Oliver Queen or Dinah Lance to a different race just for the sake of it is just ignorant.
My only problem with that is that one of the iconic aspects of Batman is when he's in the dark, he blinds in so well with the exception of his eyes and the part of his face showing. Not to sound racist, but realistically, THAT wouldn't really exist if he was black. He would be more like a shadow.

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Old 10-26-2012, 07:44 PM   #105
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Honestly a thread like this is going to be discovered twenty years from now and it's probably going to look ridiculous.

Race has continued to matter less and less over the last several decades and will probably continue into the future.

Funny how those arguing so passionately not to change the race of certain characters only argue when it's the characters they care about personally.

Samj Jackson has been super popular as nick fury and you see hardly anybody complaining. Frankly unless a character's race is essential to the character (which is very rare) i don't see a huge issue.

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Old 10-26-2012, 08:01 PM   #106
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

It all comes down to how iconic the character is. You wont be seeing a black, asain, etc.. Batman/Superman/WW, just like how you wont be seeing a white Storm. Unless of course it is a new character taking up the mantle.

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:46 PM   #107
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Does Gender Really Matter?

I mean, honestly, what would people's reactions have been if 'Nick' Fury was short for Nicola, and they had Helen Mirren in the role or something?

Do people feel like that'd be too much?

And to those of you who saying YES, but who think changing the race is fine as long as the character's backstory isn't so specific that it wouldn't make sense, don't you have to ask yourself - would changing the gender matter much to certain characters backstories either?

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Old 10-26-2012, 09:53 PM   #108
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Does Gender Really Matter?

I mean, honestly, what would people's reactions have been if 'Nick' Fury was short for Nicola, and they had Helen Mirren in the role or something?

Do people feel like that'd be too much?

And to those of you who saying YES, but who think changing the race is fine as long as the character's backstory isn't so specific that it wouldn't make sense, don't you have to ask yourself - would changing the gender matter much to certain characters backstories either?
Race is a social construct gender is biological that's the difference. Like i mentioned race is continually being proven to be nothing of actual significance, not much different than people with different hair color.

Again if you want to see how silly arguing over things like race will be in the future, go to a site called "daniel craig is not bond". Where you will actually see people who to this day refuse to see any of his bond films for the sole fact craig is blonde and bond is not.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:03 PM   #109
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Race is a social construct gender is biological that's the difference. Like i mentioned race is continually being proven to be nothing of actual significance, not much different than people with different hair color.

Again if you want to see how silly arguing over things like race will be in the future, go to a site called "daniel craig is not bond". Where you will actually see people who to this day refuse to see any of his bond films for the sole fact craig is blonde and bond is not.
I'm not sure it's fair to say there is nothing biological about race, but I still don't think there is a big difference between a change in race and a change in gender.

I mean, Judi Dench sure made a great M in the bond franchise. Why couldn't Shield be run by a woman?

And shouldn't it be the same question for sexual orientation too?

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 10-26-2012, 10:24 PM   #110
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Well, race, ethnicity whatever you want to call it, is not a social construction. Not entirely anyway. Some groups can get illnesses others can't. There are other biological traits that differ (some races don't have wisdom teeth).

So it's definitely more than a social construct.

However humans aren't as diverse as most species.

As for how that goes into characters, characters are obviously going to be defined at least at some level by their racial background, given how racist this world is, and was.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:34 PM   #111
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

You may as well come right out and say it. Men don't always view women in positions of power in the same light as they would another man. They either pull punches, or throw much harder ones because she doesn't belong.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:36 PM   #112
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

We are (like most ape species), a male dominant species.

That's kind of inevitable.

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Old 10-26-2012, 10:57 PM   #113
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Well, race, ethnicity whatever you want to call it, is not a social construction. Not entirely anyway. Some groups can get illnesses others can't. There are other biological traits that differ (some races don't have wisdom teeth).

So it's definitely more than a social construct.

However humans aren't as diverse as most species.

As for how that goes into characters, characters are obviously going to be defined at least at some level by their racial background, given how racist this world is, and was.
I agree.

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You may as well come right out and say it. Men don't always view women in positions of power in the same light as they would another man. They either pull punches, or throw much harder ones because she doesn't belong.
I don't disagree.

For the record, I'm not for changing a characters race, gender or sexual orientation.

I just don't understand why race is always the one that is discussed as though it is a massive issue of racism if certain candidates aren't considered, and yet no one seems to consider it sexist that those same issues are also present with gender.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 10-26-2012, 11:28 PM   #114
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Here's the thing, i'm not for changing race the of characters. I'm for good actors not automatically being disqualified just because they happen to be a different color than what the fictional character they will play was originally portrayed as.

I'm not for change for the sake of it but if there is a good actor and he/she would do a good job in the role his race should not be a hindrance to getting that role.

As for race yes there are certain biological elements (mainly health related) but that goes for any distinct group who originate in a certain area. As well when i say race is a social construct look through history and you will see how true it is.

There was a time when irish, italians and jews were all considered "non-white" or some other race, however our views have changed i.e. race is mostly based on how society sees it.

I think eventually our society will get to the point where race is considered mostly irrelevant. It won't happen tomorrow but before most of us are old men it will happen i'm pretty sure.

As for gender you just have to change so much more for the character to make sense. The personalities and emotions, strengths of men and women are different.


Last edited by Bruce Malone; 10-26-2012 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:33 PM   #115
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Well, the thing is people can always say that they want the best actor for the role, but detractors will always view it as simply trying to fill a quota or something regardless.

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:35 PM   #116
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

We'll come up with something else. Humans genetically engineered vs humans not genetically engineered.

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:39 PM   #117
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Wait 35 years for the "super-man has to be played by a fully human actor not a cyborg" thread.

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Old 10-27-2012, 04:21 AM   #118
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Cool Re: Does Race Really Matter?

I'm a purist like most when it comes to certain superheroes: Supes, Wondy, Storm, Cap...they should remain the race their portrayed in the comics...

I remember I was talking with some folks who knew nothing about comics outside the recent Marvel movies and such...and I was talking about certain miscasts (Jessica Alba as Sue Storm, Halle Berry as Storm) and someone makes the comment about portraying Storm as asian...oh I was like 'hell no!' So non-comic folk, mostly, won't care like those familiar with the material.

Now...in the case of Nick Fury...his ultimate counterpart just blew up. So if in 10 years, an alternate universe version of the Justice League is created with a Latin Superman, African American Wonder Woman and Asian Batman...and they become popular...I wouldn't be opposed, especially if I like the reimagining.

It all depends on how the source material is treated and where society is...the traditional will always be popular...but we're seeing a shift in what's acceptable nowadays in comics and movies...I may not like everything they're doing or be interested in what they want to show and portray...but if people want it and it makes money...most likely the industry will move on it.

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Old 10-27-2012, 10:15 AM   #119
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Wait, what was wrong with Halle Berry as Storm? I mean, aside from her being a dubious actress who did a poor job at the role. . . Storm *is* supposed to be black.

Anyway, my opinion is that for major characters, you should only ever change the race of the character if you have an actual really good reason to do so. "There is a much better actor of a different race, and the race doesn't really matter for the character" certainly counts, provided race really doesn't matter. For the Kingpin, this is true. For Superman, not so much.

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Old 10-27-2012, 11:02 AM   #120
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Here's the thing, i'm not for changing race the of characters. I'm for good actors not automatically being disqualified just because they happen to be a different color than what the fictional character they will play was originally portrayed as.

I'm not for change for the sake of it but if there is a good actor and he/she would do a good job in the role his race should not be a hindrance to getting that role.
But you are against good actors being considered just because they happen to be a different gender than what the fictional character was originally portrayed as.

Because you don't want 'insert character here' to suddenly become a woman. And that's not considered sexist at all.

And yet if someone said they didn't want 'insert character here' to suddenly become an asian man, that'd be considered racist.

That's all i'm trying to point out here.

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As for race yes there are certain biological elements (mainly health related) but that goes for any distinct group who originate in a certain area. As well when i say race is a social construct look through history and you will see how true it is.

There was a time when irish, italians and jews were all considered "non-white" or some other race, however our views have changed i.e. race is mostly based on how society sees it.
Yes but we're not looking at how race is viewed socially, we're looking at the physical appearance.

It wouldn't matter what race someone was if they LOOKED right for the character. But completely opposite skin colours and other physical differences mean they would look nothing like the character.

Which is fine in a few small/side characters whose appearance hasn't been that important or consistent, but would be ridiculously forced and odd in others.

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As for gender you just have to change so much more for the character to make sense. The personalities and emotions, strengths of men and women are different.
And that could just so easily be interpreted as sexist.

You couldn't have a female head of Sheild in place of Nick Fury because she'd be too emotional? Because she wouldn't be as physically strong?

And in actual superheroes, I really don't see what the different 'strengths' would have to do with it, because it's super strength, which isn't determined by gender.

Nor do I see how the personalities and emotions would have to be drastically different. Look at Spiderman - why couldn't you have a socially awkward girl who was a science nerd and photographer, who lived with her aunt and uncle and had issues about being an orphan. Or Batman - why couldn't a female character be just as damaged and hardened by witnessing the death of her parents?

Again, i'm not saying I WANT women to be considered for previously male roles, i'm just saying I see no difference in considering them than considering men of a different race.

The biggest problem with BOTH, is that they won't LOOK anything like the character. And then there are secondary issues of how you might have to change the character's backstory to fit, which I actually think is less likely with female characters because a male's backstory could fit just as well.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 10-27-2012, 05:32 PM   #121
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Well we can use your argument as a purist for physical appearance to say that every actor cast should look exactly the same as their character. Same hair color, same eyes, same height, probably would have to juice to get the same physique (already started though).

I'm just saying there is room for leeway on something like race because it has less of a relevancy today than gender.

Again as for gender i'm not saying it in a sexist way but anyone who has spent any time with a woman knows there are differences between the two and i'm not saying one gender is more superior to another it is just a biological fact.

So according to you superman and wonder-woman are the same in every regard since they should be due to their similar powers? No the fact is her gender does play a role in elements of her character. However superman being depicted as physically white plays absolutely no role in his, i mean the guys not even freaking human.

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Old 10-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #122
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

Not really, but does it work in reverse too? Could we have a white Blade, or John Stewart, without it seeming racist?

If not, then don't bother changing any main characters race, it's a can of worms.

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Old 10-27-2012, 09:03 PM   #123
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Well we can use your argument as a purist for physical appearance to say that every actor cast should look exactly the same as their character. Same hair color, same eyes, same height, probably would have to juice to get the same physique (already started though).
You can dye hair, you can wear contacts, you can build up muscle and there are tricks to height issues on screen (see Tom Cruise).

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I'm just saying there is room for leeway on something like race because it has less of a relevancy today than gender.

Again as for gender i'm not saying it in a sexist way but anyone who has spent any time with a woman knows there are differences between the two and i'm not saying one gender is more superior to another it is just a biological fact.

So according to you superman and wonder-woman are the same in every regard since they should be due to their similar powers? No the fact is her gender does play a role in elements of her character. However superman being depicted as physically white plays absolutely no role in his, i mean the guys not even freaking human.
No, i'm not saying they are the same at all. Those are two very different characters.

I am merely saying that you could have a female be exactly the same as Superman in every way but her appearance.

Just because Wonder Woman isn't, doesn't mean no woman could be. Wonder Woman comes from a background of an all female society, of course she would be different.

But I don't see what the difference would be between Supes and a female character with Superman's entire backstory still in place. Other than their appearance.

Or do you think it is impossible for a woman to have the same alien origin, small town upbringing, feelings of being an outsider, heroic tendancies, passion for justice, eventual career as a Journalist etc?

For instance, if I were to draw an entirely new version of Birthright in which the only thing I changed was replacing SuperMAN with SuperWOMAN - would that not work somehow? Do you think people would be going 'Oh no, that woman talks and acts much too much like a man?'

I don't think so.

Yes, some women fit a stereotype of being more emotional, or sensitive, or compassionate blah blah. But you can also have female characters that are the opposite of that. And you can have male characters who are those things as well.

Gender stereotypes are as insignificant as race stereotypes IMO.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


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Old 10-27-2012, 09:14 PM   #124
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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Wait, what was wrong with Halle Berry as Storm? I mean, aside from her being a dubious actress who did a poor job at the role. . . Storm *is* supposed to be black.

Anyway, my opinion is that for major characters, you should only ever change the race of the character if you have an actual really good reason to do so. "There is a much better actor of a different race, and the race doesn't really matter for the character" certainly counts, provided race really doesn't matter. For the Kingpin, this is true. For Superman, not so much.
i think people feel she was'nt fit for storm because as they put it she was'nt "black enough" since she is of mixed ethnicity and is'nt as dark skinned as comic storm and storm has that African goddess vibe to her which is why everyone's #1 choice back in 99 was Angela Bassett who has a far more intimidating look than baby face halle

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Old 10-27-2012, 09:27 PM   #125
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Default Re: Does Race Really Matter?

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i think people feel she was'nt fit for storm because as they put it she was'nt "black enough" since she is of mixed ethnicity and is'nt as dark skinned as comic storm and storm has that African goddess vibe to her which is why everyone's #1 choice back in 99 was Angela Bassett who has a far more intimidating look than baby face halle
Angela Bassett or Iman would've been perfect as Storm IMO.

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