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Old 12-15-2012, 12:00 PM   #676
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Well thanks for the kind words. He said he'd been getting many PM's from posters afraid to post any critical opinions about TDKR here because they get derided for it by posters here.

Posting eye rolling smileys and telling CJ to 'get over it' etc sounds like the type of thing he was talking about.
I have no problem with people finding faults with TDKR,it was by no means the best movie ever,or a masterpiece or even the best of this trilogy.

But I find it annoying when people bring up their fanfiction,the poster thinks that TDKR could be improved just by having Joker lead an army of inmates against the cops.
He knows fully well that Ledger(RIP) is dead,and the fact that the Joker was ruled out,so why complain about problems that aren't problems to even begin with?

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Old 12-15-2012, 12:04 PM   #677
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

I don't disagree with the complaint being a fruitless one (though I agree with him saying a direct verbal reference to the Joker wouldn't have hurt). It's how you respond to it that I was talking about. I assume that's what C. Lee was talking about, too, when he said people were afraid to post critical opinions.

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Old 12-15-2012, 12:09 PM   #678
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I don't disagree with the complaint being a fruitless one (though I agree with him saying a direct verbal reference to the Joker wouldn't have hurt). It's how you respond to it that I was talking about. I assume that's what C. Lee was talking about, too, when he said people were afraid to post critical opinions.
All right,I guess I'll cool it down.

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Old 12-15-2012, 12:52 PM   #679
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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it had better writing, in terms of the actual plot and the characterisation. with some nice unobtrusive nods and references to previous bonds. it was serious yet still witty and slick. craig gives an award worthy performance. the cinematography is some of the best ever. the scene in shanghai in particular is one of the most beautifully shot scenes i've ever seen. the one take fight scene in front of the neon is the type of shot i've yet to see nolan and pfister achieve. the editing is vastly superior to rises' which to be fair isn't difficult. the action scenes are superior. the finale isn't rushed as hell and isn't ruined by terrible acting and some of the worst stunt work i've ever seen.

skyfall is a superior film in every single way.
I agree with most of that. Both films are somewhat similar in introducing an icon who appears to be at the end of the line, and at the same time offering a retrospective on the whole mythos. I think that Skyfall does it in a much more satisfying way, and manages to follow a coherent and uncluttered story at the same time. TDKR deserves a lot of credit for its ambition, but it suffers from a number of half-formed themes, some weak characters, some poor acting, and a lot of plot holes.

I like both films, but feel that TDKR can't be construed as anything other than a step down from TDK. I think that Nolan et al, in ten years time, will probably accept that. It's a pity that TDK received such a light serving of Oscars, but it would be faintly insulting to give them to the (inferior) TDKR in its place.

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Old 12-15-2012, 12:55 PM   #680
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

I love craig as an actor but i still hold overall that he was not just better in CR than skyfall but it was overall a better movie.

I honestly think that the reaction to Quantum was so bad that it makes skyfall in comparison look so much better. It wasn't a bad movie don't get me wrong but it's not any more oscar worthy than CR.

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Old 12-15-2012, 12:57 PM   #681
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

oh for sure. i'm not saying rises is a bad film, at all. it's not. what you say is true. both films are examining these icons at the end of their tether. it's showing them as broken down and beat up heroes who are past their best.

but i just think skyfall done it in a better way. and also, it wasn't just an examination of bond, the person. it was an examination and in some parts, playful deconstruction of the entire james bond concept. the part where he is talking to q who says something like "exploding pens? we're a bit past that now" springs to mind. it had streaks of satire and self awareness, yet didn't go into a full blown parody and remained compelling in a dramatic way. which is no mean feat.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:00 PM   #682
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I love craig as an actor but i still hold overall that he was not just better in CR than skyfall but it was overall a better movie.

I honestly think that the reaction to Quantum was so bad that it makes skyfall in comparison look so much better. It wasn't a bad movie don't get me wrong but it's not any more oscar worthy than CR.
i agree he was better in casino royale. i believe that performance should have garnered awared recognition. but, his performance in skyfall was also brilliant. i think he should get at least some nominations come award time, even if it's a peter jackson or martin scorcese esque type of nod.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:02 PM   #683
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

See, I thought that self-reverential winking was a bit unnecessary and kind of took me out of that scene. At the same time, it's playfulness felt like it was bringing Bond back into "lighter" territory, so I don't think it was bad or wrong my any means. But I do think the self-reflexive elements were laid on a bit thick at times and I think the movie could have still been just as strong without it.

Just my opinion though. Skyfall was still a fantastic movie.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:05 PM   #684
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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See, I thought that self-reverential winking was a bit unnecessary and kind of took me out of that scene. At the same time, it's playfulness felt like it was bringing Bond back into "lighter" territory, so I don't think it was bad or wrong my any means. But I do think the self-reflexive elements were laid on a bit thick at times and I think the movie could have still been just as strong without it.

Just my opinion though. Skyfall was still a fantastic movie.
Now that you bring this up, I'm curious how you feel about the Robin line in TDKR. Personally, I thought it was laid on thicker than anything in Skyfall.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:14 PM   #685
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Now that you bring this up, I'm curious how you feel about the Robin line in TDKR. Personally, I thought it was laid on thicker than anything in Skyfall.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up, haha. It absolutely was a total wink, but it felt more like a acknowledgement of what was already obvious to me though.

Kind of like, "okay, of course he's Robin, but you already knew that right? ". Not, "aha! ROBIN!111" That's just how I took it though. Skyfall did the exact same thing with Moneypenny, IMO. They set up vaguely familiar aspects with the characters and then paid them off at the end for people familiar with the franchise. I didn't terribly mind either of those things, but Skyfall had just a few more of those kinds moments, I thought.

Seeing that it's Bond's 50th anniversary, I totally get the self-obsessed aspects of the movie being there though.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:15 PM   #686
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

The problem with the 'Robin' line was that it was so tentative that it felt awkward and somewhat superfluous. You can compare it to the equivalent introductions of M and Moneypenny in Skyfall, which seemed to have the courage of conviction.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:16 PM   #687
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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See, I thought that self-reverential winking was a bit unnecessary and kind of took me out of that scene. At the same time, it's playfulness felt like it was bringing Bond back into "lighter" territory, so I don't think it was bad or wrong my any means. But I do think the self-reflexive elements were laid on a bit thick at times and I think the movie could have still been just as strong without it.

Just my opinion though. Skyfall was still a fantastic movie.
fair points. i see where you are coming from.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:16 PM   #688
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I was waiting for someone to bring this up, haha. It was a total wink, but it felt more like a concession to me though.

Kind of like, "okay, of course he's Robin, but you already knew that right? ". Not, "aha! ROBIN!111" That's just how I took it though. Skyfall did the exact same thing with Moneypenny, IMO. They set up vaguely familiar aspects with the characters and then paid them off at the end for people familiar with the franchise. I didn't terribly mind either of those things, but Skyfall had just a few more of those kinds moments, I thought.

Seeing that it's Bond's 50th anniversary, I totally get the self-obsessed aspects of the movie being there though.
I agree with all of this. I suppose in a franchise like Bond all of those nods and winks seemed somehow appropriate. I just never expected such an obvious nod in a Nolan Batman film.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:17 PM   #689
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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The problem with the 'Robin' line was that it was so tentative that it felt awkward and somewhat superfluous. You can compare it to the equivalent introductions of M and Moneypenny in Skyfall, which seemed to have the courage of conviction.
You see i feel this is such a fan boy type of complaint. I saw TDKR 3 times in theaters and each time that line killed. The audience really enjoyed the nod there.

I did as well, John was used wisely in the film and there was nothing wrong with a nod to the fans unfortunately some of the fan boys took the opposite feeling.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:19 PM   #690
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

Yeah, I didn't really feel anything tentative about the line. It was pretty blatant and in your face. It was kind of a relief for me, because he was fitting the archetype of the sidekick all movie so I was just waiting for them to make some kind of nod, and there it was at the least expected moment.

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I agree with all of this. I suppose in a franchise like Bond all of those nods and winks seemed somehow appropriate. I just never expected such an obvious nod in a Nolan Batman film.
I can see where you're coming from. I guess if Nolan never made a sequel to BB the Joker card would have always been just a wink and a nod. It's just that he got to follow it up and give it definition in this universe. This was like another Joker card moment to me, only it really does live on in our imaginations this time- just like he originally intended with the Joker card.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:25 PM   #691
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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You see i feel this is such a fan boy type of complaint. I saw TDKR 3 times in theaters and each time that line killed. The audience really enjoyed the nod there.

I did as well, John was used wisely in the film and there was nothing wrong with a nod to the fans unfortunately some of the fan boys took the opposite feeling.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. My point is that we would have been better off without the line, or with it leading somewhere. In what sense does this make me a "fan boy", and why are you anything different?

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:29 PM   #692
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

i do think the robin line was kind of pointless. it did come as a genuine surprise though. it was clear throughout the film that blake was being groomed and set up for something. him discovering the bat cave was not a surprise, the robin line was.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:38 PM   #693
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I was waiting for someone to bring this up, haha. It absolutely was a total wink, but it felt more like a acknowledgement of what was already obvious to me though.

Kind of like, "okay, of course he's Robin, but you already knew that right? ". Not, "aha! ROBIN!111"

I feel the same way. Thorough my first viewing of the movie, I tried to find some meaning for John Blake's character. And I discovered that he shared so many traits of different Robin's incarnation, and played a similar role. Then I thought "He is Nolan's Robin!" and I was ready to tell my family at the end of the film my point of view. Then, the Robin line came and I felt like it was some kind of reward for me.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:59 PM   #694
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I don't understand what you are trying to say here. My point is that we would have been better off without the line, or with it leading somewhere. In what sense does this make me a "fan boy", and why are you anything different?
I didn't call you a fan boy specifically. What i mean is that the only place i really hear complaints about that line are on forums like this or from the supposed "hardcore" batman fans.

I'm saying for the majority of the general audience the line played well enough and most don't have any complaints about it. I just think it's ironic that the line like i said a nod to the fans was taken negatively by many of the "fan-boy" or what have you.

In the grand scheme of things it's really nothing to get upset about or affects the movie as whole. Trust me we would hear the exact same complaints somehow if that line was moved or put somewhere else.

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Old 12-15-2012, 02:23 PM   #695
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In the grand scheme of things it's really nothing to get upset about or affects the movie as whole. Trust me we would hear the exact same complaints somehow if that line was moved or put somewhere else.
I agree with that. I think people would have accused Nolan of being too pretentious to admit that this was his take on Robin and being "ashamed" of the comic book aspects of the material. I really think that moment totally showed that this isn't the case. Or at the very least, his brother or Goyer egged him on and he agreed to it

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Old 12-15-2012, 03:15 PM   #696
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

On a lighter note, I don't know why people say they're afraid of the Nolanites around here now. It is amazing how quickly it's gone from being full of Nolanites worshiping this series to most fans deriding it. I guess the newness has worn off.

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Old 12-15-2012, 03:23 PM   #697
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it had better writing, in terms of the actual plot and the characterisation. with some nice unobtrusive nods and references to previous bonds. it was serious yet still witty and slick. craig gives an award worthy performance. the cinematography is some of the best ever. the scene in shanghai in particular is one of the most beautifully shot scenes i've ever seen. the one take fight scene in front of the neon is the type of shot i've yet to see nolan and pfister achieve. the editing is vastly superior to rises' which to be fair isn't difficult. the action scenes are superior. the finale isn't rushed as hell and isn't ruined by terrible acting and some of the worst stunt work i've ever seen.

skyfall is a superior film in every single way.
I actually HIGHLY disagree with this. At least in terms of writing, everything else is subjective.

If you want to talk about plotholes in TDKR, don't compare it to a movie that's ENTIRE second half makes absolutely no sense.

Why does Silva want to be captured by MI6? He could have shown up dressed as a cop to surprise kill M at the Parliament hearing without being captured and therefore Bond would never have thwarted him.

How did Silva know Bond would corner him at that exact moment, at that exact place and stand in the exact position for him to blow up a passing Tube train right on top of him (which happens to apparently have no passengers or even a conductor during Rush Hour in it)?!

Why does Bond go to Skyfall when there are no weapons or advantages to defend himself?!

If Q can inexplicably leave a trail that is "not too big and not too small" to get Silva to follow Bond (with no real explanation how) to Skyfall without knowing it's a trap, how come MI6, especially with Mallory now in on it, not send in a back-up Special Ops team to spring when Silva shows up instead leaving Bond and high ranking official M to defend themselves like it's freaking Home Alone?!

Why does Bond let MI6 think he is dead for three months when the guy he was chasing got away. When has Bond ever let his man get away and given up to get drunk for three months? He always goes rogue, including in CR and QOS, before he gives up.

What did Bond accomplish at the end of the movie considering Silva succeeded at killing M?


....Look, I really enjoyed Skyfall. I thought it was a very fun movie.

But you CANNOT cite plot holes are muddled writing in TDKR and then praise Skyfall. It was a very well acted, beautifully shot action movie. But the story is a huge mess.

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Old 12-15-2012, 03:51 PM   #698
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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On a lighter note, I don't know why people say they're afraid of the Nolanites around here now. It is amazing how quickly it's gone from being full of Nolanites worshiping this series to most fans deriding it. I guess the newness has worn off.
Me neither. Back when the movie was initially released, most posters around here were pleased with it, although there was an increasing number of regulars who were disappointed in it. I subsequently took a two-month break from the forums after watching the movie myself, and by the time I was back the 'balance of powers' if you will, had shifted towards the critics camp (just to be clear, I'm not deriding this progression of events, just detailing the way I saw it).

Like I said in another thread, you now see various users claiming they were disappointed by the film and in multiple threads to boot.

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Old 12-15-2012, 07:15 PM   #699
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:50 PM   #700
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On a lighter note, I don't know why people say they're afraid of the Nolanites around here now. It is amazing how quickly it's gone from being full of Nolanites worshiping this series to most fans deriding it. I guess the newness has worn off.
It's still the usual suspects and the occasional new poster who registers just to voice their contrarian opinion. The series is still beloved. If you go to forums that aren't focused on movies and/or comics then you'd see that a vast majority of people loved this movie.

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