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Old 11-22-2013, 01:05 PM   #151
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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What's hard to understand about it? People have complained in the past about not being able to believe that Laurel can or will become a capable fighter because she doesn't look like one (as opposed to her sister). However, I don't believe that criticism would extend to Thea, who looks even less like a fighter. Simple as that.

Not sure what cinematography or atmosphere has to do with that, which is what you referenced in your last post. Neither of those things are relevant to Thea's physique (or lack thereof) or suspected hypocrisy.



I never said skinny people couldn't fight. What I said was other people have said that because of how Laurel looks, they could never buy that she was a capable fighter.
I think the problem that people have with laurel is that the writers want her to be BC, and for her to do that we have to see on screen her training for around 5 years, if thea was to become speedy, we would still like to see her train an what not.

Your reading way to much into that fact that I said Summer was skinny, I was just pointing out that being skinny doesn't make you incapable of certain feats. Laurel looks fine, it's just that we need to see her train for us to even start believing her ( with thea, she in the least has wicked aim).

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:10 PM   #152
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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What's hard to understand about it? People have complained in the past about not being able to believe that Laurel can or will become a capable fighter because she doesn't look like one (as opposed to her sister). However, I don't believe that criticism would extend to Thea, who looks even less like a fighter. Simple as that.

Not sure what cinematography or atmosphere has to do with that, which is what you referenced in your last post. Neither of those things are relevant to Thea's physique (or lack thereof) or suspected hypocrisy.
This is why I think there is some miscommunication going on. Cinematography and atmosphere doesn't help with the above bit you quoted at all; which is what I'm saying. Cinematography and atmosphere can help with suspension of disbelief but can't help the actor perform his/her own stunts; which was the issue I raised.

By virtue of being a skinny person, I was wondering if Willa Holland has the necessary physique to perform her own stunts a la Stephen Amell - and less frequently, Colton Haynes (think he did some of his own for the season finale) - the reason being it would open up a lot more possibilities in terms of what the creators can do.

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Old 11-22-2013, 01:29 PM   #153
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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This is why I think there is some miscommunication going on. Cinematography and atmosphere doesn't help with the above bit you quoted at all; which is what I'm saying. Cinematography and atmosphere can help with suspension of disbelief but can't help the actor perform his/her own stunts; which was the issue I raised.
What I was trying to say was that some people would be more willing to accept Thea (Holland) defeating more powerful looking men and women in combat because of a suspension of disbelief that they wouldn't be willing to extend to Laurel (Cassidy).

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By virtue of being a skinny person, I was wondering if Willa Holland has the necessary physique to perform her own stunts a la Stephen Amell - and less frequently, Colton Haynes (think he did some of his own for the season finale) - the reason being it would open up a lot more possibilities in terms of what the creators can do.
I have no idea. I'm sure a rudimentary Google search could answer that question for us.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:19 PM   #154
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

The difference with Thea becoming Speedy or whoever is she would be the side-kick not the main hero. Laurel is supposed to be the Black Canary who is one of the best martial artists in the DC verse, better than Green Arrow.

So it would be easier to buy Thea becoming a sidekick faster than Laurel becoming a better fighter than Sara and Oliver.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:24 PM   #155
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

^ at first she just needs to learn to use a bow like Oliver, which should only take 2-3 years to get good at it considering she used to do archery and has wicked aim.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:33 PM   #156
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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The difference with Thea becoming Speedy or whoever is she would be the side-kick not the main hero. Laurel is supposed to be the Black Canary who is one of the best martial artists in the DC verse, better than Green Arrow.

So it would be easier to buy Thea becoming a sidekick faster than Laurel becoming a better fighter than Sara and Oliver.
I think it is a safe bet that no Canary will be a better fighter than Oliver. Look at the fight in the mansion with Al Awal. Sara went down Oliver didn't. No matter who the Canary is Oliver will be saving the day more often than not because it's his show. Last season he was saving the day at least 95% of the time. A fully trained Canary might drop that to 60%(because it's his show) but that would be a drastic and sudden change. It might work out ok and then it might not. Slowly cutting down the % would probably be safer so they could pull back if the ratings drop.

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Old 11-22-2013, 02:56 PM   #157
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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The difference with Thea becoming Speedy or whoever is she would be the side-kick not the main hero. Laurel is supposed to be the Black Canary who is one of the best martial artists in the DC verse, better than Green Arrow.
I don't see the difference, really. Assuming Thea won't stick to long distance combat, she'll be doing everything Oliver is doing, even if she's not quite on his level.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:16 PM   #158
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

You don't see the difference between a side kick that helps out the hero to one of the best martial artists in the DC verse?

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:20 PM   #159
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

I don't see the difference between two skinny females who we're supposed to believe are able to take on and defeat criminals, no. Labels like "heroine" and "sidekick" mean nothing in the context of this discussion.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:31 PM   #160
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

There's no reason both can't be taken seriously as crimefighters.

Let's call it what it is: People not wanting to see Katie as Black Canary.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:43 PM   #161
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

All things said and done though... does anyone actually see Thea becoming Oliver's sidekick during the course of the series? From a thematic point, if this show is about Oliver's journey to becoming a hero, then getting a sidekick wouldn't really be in keeping with that goal. Getting a sidekick is something that tends to happen after a hero establishes him/herself. They have to find themselves first before they're able to mentor someone else, etc.

Moreover, one thing the show has done really well is how realistic people's reactions are upon discovering someone they thought they knew moonlighting as a vigilante - namely, it's less "Cool, can I join you?" and more "WTF is wrong with you?!". After all, while the motivations explaining why someone would become a vigilante makes sense and is understandable, the reverse is less so - meaning, the decision of becoming a vigilante is rarely the most rational course of action to take.

If Thea is to take a more action-oriented role, the likelier way I see it happening is if Thea learns about Roy's involvement with the Arrow, Roy then subsequently dying (or at least getting seriously hurt) as a result of said involvement, at which point Thea turns to Merlyn in order to help her exact her revenge.

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Old 11-22-2013, 03:51 PM   #162
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

Skinny females kicking ass is what always happens, because that's what guy comic readers would rather see than a muscular woman. It's never been believable. Which is why I was happy when I saw what Caity Lotz can do in real life when they cast her as the Canary.

I would need both Thea and Laurel to get years of training before donning a super hero outfit in order to buy it. But a side kick is a lesser role so I could buy Thea becoming Speedy a lot sooner than I could buy Laurel becoming a better Black Canary than Sara. I rather not see either of them take up the side kick or hero role. They have enough people in that role now Ollie, Sara, Dig and Roy.


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Old 11-22-2013, 03:52 PM   #163
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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There's no reason both can't be taken seriously as crimefighters.

Let's call it what it is: People not wanting to see Katie as Black Canary.
Pretty much.

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All things said and done though... does anyone actually see Thea becoming Oliver's sidekick during the course of the series?
Yeah, actually. Either next season or the season after that.

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From a thematic point, if this show is about Oliver's journey to becoming a hero, then getting a sidekick wouldn't really be in keeping with that goal.
Not true. Putting someone on the right path could lead to Oliver coming to personal revelations that enable him to become the hero he's meant to be.

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Moreover, one thing the show has done really well is how realistic people's reactions are upon discovering someone they thought they knew moonlighting as a vigilante - namely, it's less "Cool, can I join you?" and more "WTF is wrong with you?!". After all, while the motivations often make sense given that someone becomes a vigilante, the reverse - the decision of becoming a vigilante is rarely the most rational course of action to take.
Diggle and Felicity came around. Roy's been on board from the beginning.

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If Thea is to take a more action-oriented role, the likelier way I see it happening is if Thea learns about Roy's involvement with the Arrow, Roy then subsequently dying (or at least getting seriously hurt) as a result of said involvement, at which point Thea turns to Merlyn in order to help her exact her revenge.
I hope it doesn't happen that way.

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Old 11-22-2013, 04:11 PM   #164
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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Skinny females kicking ass is what always happens, because that's what guy comic readers would rather see than a muscular woman. It's never been believable. Which is why I was happy when I saw what Caity Lotz can do in real life when they cast her as the Canary.
1) I don't think you know what I mean why I say "skinny". Skinny = lacking any muscle tone or any other physical indication that Laurel or Thea have received any combat training, unlike Sara.

2) Again: the only reason I brought this up in the first place is because I believe the criticism of being too skinny to believably fight crime only applies to Laurel. Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with her or Thea taking on bad guys looking the way they do. The issue of Laurel having to put on muscle only exists because people don't want to see her become the Black Canary.

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:56 PM   #165
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

I see all this excuses and all for Laurel not putting on a costume and taking bad guys, but I'm sure when they put her on some really hot outfit fighting, ppl would change their opinions....

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Old 11-22-2013, 10:20 PM   #166
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:24 PM   #167
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

Most people don't seem to have trouble buying it when Maggie Q, or Michelle Yeoh, or Angelina Jolie beat the crap out of people who are much bigger than them in their film/TV roles. I doubt that most viewers will have trouble buying Thea doing it either.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:16 PM   #168
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

Why are people saying that Malcolm is going to take her under his wing and lure her to the dark side or whatever? Just because she finds out he's her biological father doesn't mean she won't continue to think of him as a madman/murderer.

I mean she hated her mom for a long time for even being involved in the Undertaking and it took awhile for her to come around to the way of thinking that Moira was being pressured/threatened by Malcolm. Finding out that Malcolm is her biological father is going to horrify her, not make her suddenly want to work with him.

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Old 11-23-2013, 01:19 AM   #169
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

No one is saying that she'll actually join Malcolm, merely that he will TRY to recruit her.

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Old 11-23-2013, 06:49 AM   #170
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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There's no reason both can't be taken seriously as crimefighters.

Let's call it what it is: People not wanting to see Katie as Black Canary.
She has no coordination

And WH >>>> KC in terms of acting and chemistry

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Old 11-23-2013, 10:44 AM   #171
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

^ true dat

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Old 11-23-2013, 12:01 PM   #172
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

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No one is saying that she'll actually join Malcolm, merely that he will TRY to recruit her.
And considering this show's tendency to make incredibly horrible and traumatic events act as a crucible on civilians to make them badass, maybe Malcolm tries to kidnap her or something, she toughens up trying to escape, and upon being freed is taken in by either Arrow or Canary and gets the training to start being BA.

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Old 12-08-2013, 12:49 AM   #173
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Default Re: The Thea Queen/ Willa Holland thread

So I'm barely starting in on "Arrow". I got to episode 14 tonight and I'm really loving it. My only gripe is Thea who can be a bit overly dramatic/overbearing. Does her character get better or evolve later on?

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Old 12-08-2013, 01:01 AM   #174
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Yep.

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Old 12-08-2013, 12:18 PM   #175
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Yes, at least I think so. And given recent events, I suspect that her character will undergo a rather substantial evolution in the near future.

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