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Old 08-02-2013, 02:34 AM   #126
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In response to some of Ben Kenobi's post:

-You made a great point about bringing Anakin in as a pilot hired to fly Qui Gonn, etc. to Coruscant. I would've liked that more. I preferred an older Anakin in TPM anyway. Though I probably would've switched Tatoonine for Corellia instead. In part because I would've liked to have seen more Star Wars worlds. And I would've switched Alderaan for Naboo. It would've been nice to see more of that world. It perhaps could've added more resonance to Episode IV and been some dreadful foreshadowing of what was to come.
I agree too that Alderaan should have been Naboo, but I was trying to make small suggestions without entirely rewriting the script. Things that a second editor could have pointed out, but yeah we're totally on the same page.

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-I don't quite agree with you about Palpatine not wanting the treaty signed. You make some good points though about how it might not have made sense for him to want the treaty to be signed. However if Padme had folded and signed it, I still think he could've engineered a no confidence vote in Valorum using the chancellor's inability to prevent the Trade Federation from forcing Naboo to sign the treaty.
That's not a sound plan, if they "negotiated" then the treaty is legal and it would be very difficult to argue that point. Not to mention Palpatine did some other stupid things like sending Darth Maul after the Queen? Was he going to use her death as an example? Maybe but it's never stated or implied so we don't know. He also handled it so badly. Again if we were rewriting it, the Empire was made up of Space Nazi's, Palpatine should have been Space Hitler coming to save the galaxy from ruin after the Clone Wars.

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-I too didn't think it made much sense for Dooku to be trying to kill Padme, since she was a strong opponent of the Military Creation Act. What would've made more sense there is for Padme to support the Act. If there had been a Republic military it is doubtful that the Federation would've been able to blockade her planet, so it made no sense for her to be against the act. I think Lucas didn't think that would jibe with her idealism. However I think it would've been great to see Padme unknowingly more complicit in the rise of the Empire too.
Nothing really to add to that. It makes sense why Dooku wanted her dead from the audiences perspective but it makes zero sense from Padme's.

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-I also thought it would've been sweet if the seeds of the Rebellion were actually the defeated Separatists.
It was an easy opportunity. It's a reverse of the revelation in Empire, Obi-Wan is unknowingly on the wrong side and doesn't accept the real heroes offer and in bitter irony the Jedi are responsible for their own fall as well as the Republic's.

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-I also would've not made Dooku a Sith Lord. He was a good Sith Lord. But I liked the idea he floated in AOTC when he was trying to deceive Obi Wan. I think it would've been better if Dooku was actually rebelling against the Republic in a misguided attempt to save it. He would perhaps be a dupe of Palpatine still but for more noble reasons. Or maybe he would just be that one man who could really see what was going on but ultimately powerless to prevent it. And his turning away from the Republic might be better foreshadowing for Anakin's fall.
I agree, if Dooku was able to sway enough Jedi they would look like traitors. Not to mention the way they treated Anakin it would make sense why he sides with Palpatine, believing the whole time he's staying on the good side as he slowly slips to evil. This split in the order would also be a perfect set up for the Obi-Wan/Anakin conflict that finally emerges. Again I feel this was an obvious missed opportunity, had the guy just reread his own work a few times.

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Old 01-07-2014, 07:16 PM   #127
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I'm assuming most of you are familiar with the game changing Machete Order that eliminates Episode I from the viewing experience. Thanks to another great read by accomplished author of the sci-fi/fantasy Kitty Norville series Carrie Vaughn; an extension of the MO known as Carrie Order may actually save everyone the horror of watching Episode II as well!

She praises Machete Order but points out that there is nothing introduced in Episode II that isn't re-introduced in III. So why sit through a dreadful movie when you don't have to? The greatest unexpected benefit? The creepy/dreadful romance of II is now gone from your viewing experience. It's worth a read.

Here's the site in full: http://carriev.wordpress.com/2013/05...machete-order/

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Old 01-10-2014, 07:49 PM   #128
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^^^As much as I do enjoy the prequels, that is an interesting and accurate description of the prequels, and something I've contemplated on now and then (Episodes I and II really aren't needed...I've had this discussion lately with the few SW friends I have--(removing more so Ep. I than II story wise, Ep. II is just dreadful at obvious points)...I may have to view them in that way next time I have a marathon--hard to break a habit though LOL.


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Old 01-10-2014, 08:21 PM   #129
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^^^As much as I do enjoy the prequels, that is an interesting and accurate description of the prequels, and something I've contemplated on now and then (Episodes I and II really aren't needed...I've had this discussion lately with the few SW friends I have--(removing more so Ep. I than II story wise, Ep. II is just dreadful at obvious points)...I may have to view them in that way next time I have a marathon--hard to break a habit though LOL.
I hear you. But it watching them in that order: IV, V, III, VI actually HELPS the storytelling; aside from just eliminating 2 terrible movies. It is actually a blessing that Lucas decided that the 2 dreadful films he made, ultimately aren't needed for the story (especially Ep I which truly offers nothing).

It's worth a watch in that order. It's particularly great if you can watch them in that order with a Star Wars virgin.

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Old 04-17-2014, 06:29 AM   #130
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I think that older star wars fans never understood George Lucas vision for the prequels.

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Old 05-02-2014, 03:07 AM   #131
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I understand his vision, I just think he executed it horribly. As others have said, nothing really important happens in TPM or AOTC. ROTS is massively overrated, though. It has all the same problems of the previous two.

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Old 06-06-2014, 04:16 PM   #132
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There's nothing wrong with overall plot and ideas for the prequels but the execution is horrible. TPM becomes a wasted movie with the 10 year time jump to AOTC, basically undoing anything that happened, leaving the only significant plot development out of TPM to be Palpatine become chancellor and that's pretty much done off screen.

Obi Wan does nothing for the majority of the movie and Anakin is just a kid and a totally different character in AOTC. I think AOTC is probably the worst of the Star Wars movies with this mess of a screenplay, bad acting and 90's CD-Rom game style photography and VFX. The green screen composting is very flat for most scenes.

ROTS is the best of the prequels but it's completely overrated, cramming in a checklist full of plot points just to clue things up. Anakin is never really a character you can latch on to and the way he turns to the darkside , has so little build up that it seems like it was decided the morning of the shoot.

The only scene in the prequels where I felt the same energy as the OT was when Darth Maul attacks Quigon in the desert. Aside from that the editing and direction were terrible, it's as if a character wasn't sitting or just walking Lucas had no idea what to do with them.

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Old 06-06-2014, 04:35 PM   #133
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I'd like to make a point to the people who said that Lucas asked for help with the script on TPM , my understanding of it was that he asked Kasadan a few weeks before filming was supposed to start , at a speaking engagement or something. EP1's script is the only one he put real effort and time into, EP2 and EP3 didn't get a script until filming started and even then there were significant changes in the story through reshoots and editing. What amazes me is that the elevator scene in AOTC was added after the 1st cut of the movie because Lucas realized he needed a scene to introduce Obi Wan and Anakin. I can't even imagine how they were going to be introduced otherwise? The pacing of AOTC is a complete mess, we go from a pretty interesting introduction with the bombing of Padme's ship to coming to a complete halt with a meeting in Palpatine's chamber which is all exposition that doesn't make any sense, especially the stuff about Dooku who the audience hasn't heard anything about or met yet. It's terrible exposition too.

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Old 06-08-2014, 02:44 PM   #134
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When you polish a piece of poo, you'll get the Prequels!

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Old 07-16-2014, 09:53 PM   #135
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I understand his vision, I just think he executed it horribly. As others have said, nothing really important happens in TPM or AOTC. ROTS is massively overrated, though. It has all the same problems of the previous two.
I disagree. I think movies while not perfect it had a lot of hidden means and content that not only improved the original Star Wars but elevated it and gave even more stuff to examine and think about.

I could sit here and just rip you're argument apart and show you but it would take to long. My advice stop being so bitter and angry and let go of you're preconsived notion of what films should have been and really just look at the films as they are.

However I'll throw you a bone. Fans really hated the fact that Lucas changed the ending to Return of the Jedi where we see Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin. However why did he replace the original actor with Hayden Christensen. It was to further that point that when Anakin became Darth Vader the ceased to be Anakin. When he turned back to the good side he became Anakin again. Thus confirming what Yoda said in RoTS that he was no longer Anakin that he had been consumed by Vader.

Tell you what I'll be nice and give you another one. Jar Jar Binks who every one hated was actually the most important character in the first film. He establish so much about what the Jedi order had become and reveled not just a flaw but a major flaw in the Jedi Order.

In Phantom Menace we see the order was it use to be through Qui-Gon and what they order had become through Obi-Wan (though after Phantom Meance Obi takes on some of Qui-Gon beliefs). Qui-Gon trust the force and listen to it and force spoke to him and gave him feeling that Jar Jar Binks would be important; that he couldn't ignore him...guess what he was right. Had he not taken Jar Jar he would never help bring the Gungans and Naboo together and more then likely Padma would been killed and no telling what Anakin fate would been.

Now had Qui-Gon followed the code like he was supposed to he would have left Jar Jar to his own fate and not turn back. However that would have lead to disaster in that it was because of Jar Jar that Gungans and Naboo finally came together. He would never lead Padma to the Gungans hidding spot allowing here to plead with the Gungan leader and thus securing peace between the two sides.

This is just the tip of what I am talking about. I could sit here and write novel that just takes the Star Wars Universe and opens it up in way most of the fans have never even realized because of the prequels. The irony of it all is that it does track with the original films. The only thing that doesn't track is the films verse the books, comics, and video games. However that is only because Lucas didn't take those in to account. He doesn't consider them his vision of what how Star Wars Universe plays out. There are some aspects that are sort of on part with his vision but not completely. He flat stated this in interviews several times.

Now don't get me wrong I don't think the prequels are nearly as good as the original but they are still great movies and well worth watching. Especially if you're like me and like exploring the hidden aspects of the movie that are not as forward as other aspects of the movies.

That is just my opinion any way.

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Old 07-31-2014, 05:24 PM   #136
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I always enjoyed the prequels but knew they didn't hold a candle to the OT. After watching the redlettermedia videos, everything wrong with them (even things I once liked) became so apparent.

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Old 08-02-2014, 03:53 PM   #137
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The bottom line is people were expecting them to be masterpieces like the OT was.I can admit they were not,(though,I think any reasonable person should admit ROTS comes about as close as possible) but people wanting to compare them to pond scum and the like,clearly have no conception what a "bad movie" is.

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Old 08-27-2014, 01:41 PM   #138
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I had an idea for an EU novel. In the ancient times a Jedi master called Loo-Kuz started a new order. He told amazing tales of heroes he had known, which so inspired people they started an order of Jedi based on the heroism of his stories. Master Loo-Kuz left but this order thrived and only grew stronger and added more stories. And, there was one hope. Before disappearing, Loo-Kuz said that there was even greater tales to come, of greater heroes from before the ones he spoke of, that would give the order ultimate joy. The Jedi waited faithfully for 15 years, then he returned to tell the final stories. But, they were a mockery. A farce of mocking and silliness. Loo-Kuz had been a sith all along, and it was a trick to take away the hope and will of the order. So they turned away from him, and made their own hope.

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Old 09-13-2014, 06:54 AM   #139
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I was on board and faithful to the prequels up until Anakin's fall.

Anakin yells what have I done, then he looks like he has indigestion asking Palpatine to save Padme because he can't live without her.

One second he's yelling in horror at what he's done and the next he looks like he has acid reflux. Right then and there I was taken out of the film just for that unrealistic response.

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Old 09-17-2014, 04:17 AM   #140
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I had an idea for an EU novel. In the ancient times a Jedi master called Loo-Kuz started a new order. He told amazing tales of heroes he had known, which so inspired people they started an order of Jedi based on the heroism of his stories. Master Loo-Kuz left but this order thrived and only grew stronger and added more stories. And, there was one hope. Before disappearing, Loo-Kuz said that there was even greater tales to come, of greater heroes from before the ones he spoke of, that would give the order ultimate joy. The Jedi waited faithfully for 15 years, then he returned to tell the final stories. But, they were a mockery. A farce of mocking and silliness. Loo-Kuz had been a sith all along, and it was a trick to take away the hope and will of the order. So they turned away from him, and made their own hope.

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Old 09-18-2014, 07:49 PM   #141
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The bottom line is people were expecting them to be masterpieces like the OT was.I can admit they were not,(though,I think any reasonable person should admit ROTS comes about as close as possible) but people wanting to compare them to pond scum and the like,clearly have no conception what a "bad movie" is.
The problem is the original where not master piece either. People watch the original movies through the eyes of a child because most of use where kids or where teenagers when the films came out.

Don't get me wrong I won't lie and say that the new films where quite as good as the originals but there not nearly as bad as folks make them out to be.

Almost all the flaws in the prequels where in Phantom Menace. I'll be honest the flaws weren't really flaws as preconceived notions of how we thought events will unfold.

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Old 10-02-2014, 09:28 AM   #142
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I don't buy that "eyes of a child" thing. A lot of things I loved as a kid don't hold up over time. But as an adult, I can still watch the originals and see them as fantastic adventure epics. They were only childish in the sense that sci-fi is not realistic. They are still good, classic movies that were well-made. The prequels had a lot of potential but because they were rushed, the focus was on effects and toys, and the actors were poorly chosen, it just didn't work well.

I'm glad some people like them, as I did when I saw them as a late teenager, but unlike the originals they just don't hold up well like the originals do. So no, I don't buy the "eyes of a child" argument. Nostalgia can be a part of it, but they were great films to begin with.

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Old 10-06-2014, 05:36 AM   #143
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This person gets it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/...read/233043864

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At the midpoint of this movie, he is still a hero, a decent guy trying to do the right thing.

He finds out that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, which means Palpatine is corrupted by the dark side, and which also means that Palpatine has been lying to everyone -- the Senate, the public, everyone. It means Palpatine is a big, fat liar.

Anakin does the right thing -- he reports the information to Mace Windu.

Then, when he bursts in on Windu battling Palpatine, he doesn't dispute that Palpatine is a criminal who needs to be arrested -- the dispute is just whether Palpatine should be summarily executed, or should be given due process.

Anakin, quite reasonably, takes the position that Palpatine should be taken alive and tried. When Mace ignores him and prepares to kill Palpatine, Anakin stops him, cutting off his hand.

Palpatine then reveals he was not as badly wounded as he pretended and blasts Mace with lightning while screaming something like, "ultimate power!" Mace is now dead.

Anakin immediately says, "Oh my God, what have I done?"

Up to this point, everything Anakin has done is understandable and defensible. And you would expect his next step -- having just seen further confirmation that Palpatine is a duplicitous murderer who wants "ultimate power" to rule the galaxy -- would be to try to arrest Palpatine himself.

But this is where Anakin's behavior goes completely off the rails. Now that he has received all the possible confirmation he could ever want that Palpatine is an evil liar, he suddenly joins him and takes a vow of loyalty as his apprentice!

And we are supposed to believe that he does this because Palpatine has suggested he might be able to help him use the dark side to prevent Padme from dying. The only reason Anakin has for believing this is possible is the word of Palpatine himself -- who Anakin knows is an extreme liar! And even Palpatine admits that he himself doesn't even know how to do it -- that only "Darth Plagueis" did, and he is dead.

Moreover, based on this absurdly weak rationale, Anakin immediately accepts orders to destroy the Jedi Temple and kill all Jedi he finds, even young children. How could Anakin -- who just a matter of moments before was ready to see Palpatine arrested and tried for treason -- suddenly be willing to slaughter children on Palpatine's orders? Because Palpatine tells him doing so will make him strong enough with the dark side to discover the "secret" of saving Padme?

Anyone with an IQ over 10 would be able to see that Palpatine wasn't genuinely interested in helping Anakin -- that there would be no saving Padme. How could Anakin be so stupid?

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Old 10-06-2014, 11:28 PM   #144
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I always thought Anakin's turn would have been better in the context of a Jedi Civil War. Make a minor script change to Episode II- instead of Palpatine revealing himself to Dooku to recruit him, he revealed himself to only pretend to recruit him, and get him to start the Confederacy in hopes of legitimately saving the order. From here you have a civil war and the Jedi Order divided. Anakin and Obi-Wan fight for the Republic, but as it becomes the Empire during Episode III, Obi-Wan defects. He pleads for Anakin to do the same, but he's become so corrupt with power and seen such better treatment from the Emperor, that he chooses the Darkside (true seduction).

IMO would have been a lot better than what we got.

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Old 10-06-2014, 11:32 PM   #145
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I actually saw the Jedi Order as pretty corrupt by the end of the prequel movies. They were part of a semi-authoritarian regime, using clones as disposable soldiers, and then you have Mace ready to kill Palpatine without any trial.

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Old 10-07-2014, 03:50 AM   #146
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I actually saw the Jedi Order as pretty corrupt by the end of the prequel movies. They were part of a semi-authoritarian regime, using clones as disposable soldiers, and then you have Mace ready to kill Palpatine without any trial.
First off, the Jedi were forced to use the clones because the Republic demanded that they do so (To quote Obi-wan, "Our alliegeance is to the senate.").

Second, Mace said it himself that Palpatine has control of the senate and the courts. Palpatine was never going to get a fair trial as long as all the senators are influenced by him (which is why Nute Gunray was never thrown in jail for his hostile takeover of Naboo in TPM) and Mace knew that he was too dangerous to be left alive which is why he had to kill him. Now, Anakin is confusing this situation with what happened to Count Dooku because either Anakin doesn't realize or doesn't care to see that Palpatine has lied to him about both situations (about Dooku being a threat and Palpatine being helpless). All Anakin cares about is saving Padme and he thinks Palpatine holds the key to saving her so he stops Mace from killing Palpatine, not realizing that Palpatine was faking his weakness which led him to murder Mace.

Why would Anakin believe anything Palpatine says to him?? The same reason why he never told the Jedi that he married Padme or that he slaughtered an entire village of sandpeople....he is scared and in denial. Anakin knows that he's doomed himself by helping a Sith lord but he's incapable of accepting responsibility for his actions and he always blames other people for his problems. To admit what he's done would mean facing the wrath of the Jedi including Obi-wan but Anakin didn't want them to come after him which is why he agreed to help PalpSidious murder all the Jedi.

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Old 11-06-2014, 10:16 PM   #147
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I understand his vision, I just think he executed it horribly. As others have said, nothing really important happens in TPM or AOTC. ROTS is massively overrated, though. It has all the same problems of the previous two.
Actually a lot of important things happen in Episode 1 and 2. Both movies do a really good job of showing how the Jedi order had lost their way. Both showed why the order needed to be cleansed and a new era to begin. The Jedi where stuck on rules and codes and stopped trusting the will of the force. Episode one show that the jedi had stop really listen to the will of the force. Episode 2 shows us that jedi because of their rules and codes and refusel to listen to will force that they no longer where able to see things they should have. Episode 3 was the consequence of the inabilith to change.

So no I disagree episode 1 and 2 are rather important to the saga. Just watching episode 3 doesnt tell you anything other then how Anakin goes over to the Darkside. If you skip the first two then you might as well skip the third one cause the first two set up the third film. Thats just my opinion any way.

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Old 11-07-2014, 10:25 AM   #148
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If only the prequels were the best stories from TCW series. Mandalorians civil war, Anakin as a brave, noble, fun and wise Jedi Knight, Palpatine and the politics is actually fascinating, Dooku and other Force users in this constant struggle to one-up each other, bounty hunters galore. Sigh. Oh and characters that talk like normal people and not mechanical vulcan robot boring cardboard drones.

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Old 11-07-2014, 02:35 PM   #149
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If only the prequels were the best stories from TCW series. Mandalorians civil war, Anakin as a brave, noble, fun and wise Jedi Knight, Palpatine and the politics is actually fascinating, Dooku and other Force users in this constant struggle to one-up each other, bounty hunters galore. Sigh. Oh and characters that talk like normal people and not mechanical vulcan robot boring cardboard drones.
I only ever saw the theatrically released movie, and I didn't enjoy it too much. But you're really convincing me to give the TV series a shot.

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Old 11-07-2014, 03:48 PM   #150
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Default Re: The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread

I don't remember the movie but the series is good. The first season is OK. They introduce a bounty hunter "Cad Bane" who is probably cooler than Boba Fett. Anakin and Padme are also good characters and don't resemble their movie counterparts aside from some physical characteristics. A lot of it is so good it's as if it was written by SW fans who wanted to redeem the prequels and make that era fun like the OT. I see Anakin and in my head I go "There goes young Darth Vader" which is something that never happened in the PT.

And the politics of Mandalore is what should have been the "Naboo storyline" of the prequels. A lot of these planets are stuck in the middle of the war, not siding with the Republic because they're war mongers and not siding with the confederates because they're extremists. So there's a lot of grey areas and characters that aren't defined as good or bad. It adds weight to the action and drama because they're not droids or clones, they're regular Star Wars galaxy citizens. And speaking of the clones, they're actually weird and interesting. OH and young Boba Fett is also redeemed He's like hanging out with Aurra Sing and other bounty hunters that knew Jango. He's actually pretty conflicted. I wanna rewatch it now.


Last edited by Great Mind(s); 11-07-2014 at 03:54 PM.
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